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SLChatr: Reverse Chronological Group Transcript for longhouse 2007-08-02:
[18:18:36] Ina Centaur: first line
[18:22:59] ToryLynn Writer: brb.. let me put my voice up :)
[18:23:05] Ina Centaur: hi!
[18:23:11] Nebbisk Oh: hi hi
[18:23:32] ToryLynn Writer: Heya Neb :)
[18:23:37] Nebbisk Oh: what're you guys up to?
[18:23:39] Nebbisk Oh: hiya tory
[18:23:42] Ina Centaur: hi!
[18:23:52] ToryLynn Writer: book talk :)
[18:23:55] Ina Centaur: we are... pre-gathering for a possible discussion on atlas shrugged, chapter 1
[18:24:10] Nebbisk Oh: oh, i can quote extensively from ayn rand
[18:24:13] Nebbisk Oh: $
[18:24:16] Nebbisk Oh: see?
[18:24:21] ToryLynn Writer: which I read the beginning of ages ago and will skim to see how far I got :)
[18:24:26] Ina Centaur: behold.. the sign of the dollar ;-P
[18:24:55] WoWA Atlas Shrugged (1 prim): Hello, Avatar!
[18:25:10] Nebbisk Oh: i was going to join your discussion ina but it's very hard for me to commit to particular times
[18:25:34] ToryLynn Writer: I actually have read a few chapters up :)
[18:25:44] ToryLynn Writer: I should restart though :)
[18:25:50] Nebbisk Oh: maybe i can come for a while when i can -- would that be too distracting?
[18:25:53] ToryLynn Writer: I like her book Anthem
[18:26:02] ToryLynn Writer: I would welcome you with open arms, Neb...
[18:26:08] Ina Centaur: yup anthem is nice :-)
[18:26:20] Nebbisk Oh: down girl, we're talkin' books here ;)
[18:26:29] ToryLynn Writer: I''ve taught it to my freshmen
[18:26:38] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[18:26:40] Ina Centaur: has the core of all of her works in novella form
[18:26:43] ToryLynn Writer: please.. don't give Sec anything more to talk abou t:)
[18:26:47] Ina Centaur: *fictional works at least ;-)
[18:26:49] Nebbisk Oh: lol
[18:27:09] Ina Centaur: oh btw, there's also the essay contests ;-)
[18:27:14] Ina Centaur: what about Sec?
[18:27:24] Nebbisk Oh: oh sec has been teasing tory and me
[18:27:27] ToryLynn Writer: well.. I read Anthem and fell in love with it.. and I have tried to read Atlas Shrugged, but put it down.. this givce sme a chance to pick it up again
[18:27:35] ToryLynn Writer: Thinks we're having a torrid like affair :0
[18:27:35] Nebbisk Oh: ever since we told him we wrote a poem together
[18:27:38] ToryLynn Writer: hehhe
[18:27:41] Nebbisk Oh: heh yeah
[18:27:54] Ina Centaur: lol yes. interesting rhymes there ;-)
[18:29:10] ToryLynn Writer: oooh.. I like your copy of the book Ina :)
[18:29:13] WoWA Atlas Shrugged (1 prim): Touched.
[18:30:00] WoWA Atlas Shrugged (1 prim): Hello, Avatar!
[18:30:13] Ina Centaur: hehe still in progress ;-)
[18:30:15] ToryLynn Writer: my book is 1050 pages and REALLY tiny print
[18:30:29] Ina Centaur: oh, which edition do you have?
[18:30:58] ToryLynn Writer: the centenial edition
[18:30:59] Ina Centaur: i have two copies of the one on the floor
[18:31:05] ToryLynn Writer: publishe by Sisgnet
[18:31:08] ToryLynn Writer: signet
[18:31:08] Ina Centaur: oh that's the blue edition?
[18:31:12] ToryLynn Writer: yeah
[18:31:23] ToryLynn Writer: Ilike the black and gold editions though.. I have that editon of Anthem
[18:31:46] Nebbisk Oh: i was in an ayn rand play once in high school, no kidding -- haven't thought about it in years
[18:32:02] ToryLynn Writer: she wrote a play, or was it an adaptation?
[18:32:16] Ina Centaur: oh, night of january 16th or something?
[18:32:22] Nebbisk Oh: Night of January 16th... i played a cop... no she wrote it... my entire part consisted of blushing and saying "I was soooo embarrassed"
[18:32:35] Ina Centaur: wow, i didn't know they do AR plays in high school. you must have gone to an awesome prep school ;-)
[18:32:40] ToryLynn Writer: brb,. I need to some emergency first aid
[18:32:42] ToryLynn Writer: :)
[18:32:50] Nebbisk Oh: nah, a public hs in brooklyn
[18:33:08] Nebbisk Oh: it's changed since... now they struggle with DIck and Jane
[18:34:26] Ina Centaur: wow
[18:35:21] Ina Centaur: lol i wonder what the turnout at 9pm would be like..
[18:35:36] Nebbisk Oh: when is/was this supposed to start?
[18:36:05] Ina Centaur: hmm, technically all day, since the chat logger might help bridge discussions even when no one's here ;-)
[18:36:29] Ina Centaur: but, the "official time" where i'd be on daily is 9pm... need a couple of hours of buffer time to read the longer chapters
[18:36:39] Nebbisk Oh: SLT?
[18:36:43] Ina Centaur: yeup.
[18:36:55] ToryLynn Writer: owwie owie owie owie owie
[18:36:56] Ina Centaur: yeah i know.. requires east coasters to be vamps of sorts. not exactly euro friendly.
[18:37:02] Nebbisk Oh: nobody from europe then.. and even for me (EST) it's midnight
[18:37:17] Ina Centaur: then again, no one knows about this novel in europe..
[18:37:39] Ina Centaur: owie.. are you ok, tory? o_O
[18:37:58] ToryLynn Writer: yeah.. I burned my finger making coookies
[18:38:39] Ina Centaur: lol ;-) cookies for Cookie
[18:38:51] ToryLynn Writer: /me lauhg
[18:38:54] Nebbisk Oh: ina how come you're not in voice?
[18:39:13] ToryLynn Writer: I am on a binge from Atkins tonight.. not sure if it will last
[18:39:34] ToryLynn Writer: I've lost 13 pounds in the last 5 days, but I sort of lost it today and needed the cookies
[18:41:10] ToryLynn Writer: /me pokes Ina
[18:42:28] Ina Centaur: hehe
[18:42:43] Ina Centaur: /me pokes tory with a sharp chocolate chip
[18:43:03] Ina Centaur: (prodding the few Euro'ers still online... none of them have heard of A.S!)
[18:43:04] ToryLynn Writer: /me grabs the chocolate chip and bakes it into a cookie
[18:43:20] ToryLynn Writer: wow.. I'm surprised
[18:43:36] ToryLynn Writer: it does seem to be written for a NYish audience though
[18:45:57] Ina Centaur: yum :-D
[18:46:07] Ina Centaur: hmm yes, much of it is set in NY
[18:46:18] Ina Centaur: colorardo as well..
[18:46:32] ToryLynn Writer: I've noticed that
[18:47:04] Ina Centaur: but it's weird though. euro'ers think i'm making a punny joke when i ask if they've heard of it o_O
[18:47:17] ToryLynn Writer: thatis sort of strangfe
[18:47:50] ToryLynn Writer: erm.. strange
[18:48:04] Ina Centaur: hehehe
[18:48:38] ToryLynn Writer: Ina, why no voice?
[18:49:12] Ina Centaur: voice isn't on main client yet ;-)
[18:49:20] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[18:49:51] Nebbisk Oh: do you use the Nicholaz client, Ina?
[18:50:03] Ina Centaur: nicholaz?
[18:50:09] Nebbisk Oh: i've been using it all along -- except for voice of course
[18:50:21] Nebbisk Oh: yeah he fixed all the memory leaks way before LL did
[18:50:28] Nebbisk Oh: hang on i'll get you a URL
[18:51:20] Nebbisk Oh: http://nicholaz-beresford.blogspot.com/
[18:51:31] Nebbisk Oh: worth checking out -- but no voice version yet
[18:51:34] ToryLynn Writer: So, I'll let the two of you in on a secret..
[18:51:37] ToryLynn Writer: This.. is my house :0
[18:51:38] ToryLynn Writer: :)
[18:51:47] Ina Centaur: i like his subtitle;-P " You don't know a city if you have not been in it's sewers, you don't know a restaurtant if you have not been in it's kitchen and you don't know second life if you have not been in it's source. "
[18:51:48] ToryLynn Writer: I think Ina built it for me :)
[18:51:58] Ina Centaur: (tory is queen eliza in disguise)
[18:52:07] Nebbisk Oh: lol @both of you
[18:52:23] ToryLynn Writer: actually... my last name is Long.. so it has to be my house :)
[18:52:29] Ina Centaur: lol seriously?
[18:52:39] ToryLynn Writer: yup,., Victoria Long.. is me :)
[18:52:50] ToryLynn Writer: I'll give you a shiny penny ifyou guess my middle name :)
[18:52:54] Ina Centaur: haha, actually it's called the long house ... because of the long discussions that might happen here
[18:52:57] Ina Centaur: hehe
[18:53:02] Nebbisk Oh: yes ina, we call her tory for short but not for long
[18:53:31] Ina Centaur: mmm and hoping to host book discussion series by women authors..
[18:53:46] Ina Centaur: dunno kinda an idea that rose out of a discussion i had with jilly a long while ago...
[18:54:01] ToryLynn Writer: I was going to use it if I started to get the Shakespeare's Sister group off the ground
[18:54:01] Ina Centaur: back when she was complaining of less personal things... like the lack of good female authors
[18:54:13] Nebbisk Oh: is Pearl Buck up next? i haven't visited Wang Lung for the longest time... hehe
[18:54:15] ToryLynn Writer: /me rolls eyes
[18:54:27] ToryLynn Writer: Oooh.. I LOVE the good earth
[18:54:31] Ina Centaur: (btw, she's one of the euro'ers who hadn't heard of atlas shrugged till i brought it up ;-) )
[18:55:10] Ina Centaur: oh the good earth used to be one of my fave books.
[18:55:16] Ina Centaur: dunno who's up for next..
[18:55:27] Ina Centaur: but october.. probably shelly (fit for halloween as well) ;-P
[18:55:37] Nebbisk Oh: ooooh that's a good choice!
[18:55:51] ToryLynn Writer: Frankenstein is so good..and the movies never really folloow
[18:55:56] Nebbisk Oh: i thought she was great in The Poseidon Adventure! (hehe j/k)
[18:56:11] Nebbisk Oh: there was one frankie movie which was true to the book
[18:56:26] ToryLynn Writer: I want the SS group to read "Room of One's Own" and I have notecards with the chapters on them.. but I want to check publication rights
[18:56:27] Nebbisk Oh: i don't remember the title -- oh may mary shelley's frankenstein?
[18:56:29] Ina Centaur: (good earth... well at least back in 10th grade honors english... nowadays, i like lan samantha chang more)
[18:56:51] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[18:56:56] Nebbisk Oh: /me confesses to not even knowing who chang is
[18:56:59] ToryLynn Writer: how long ago WAS 10th graede honors?
[18:57:06] Ina Centaur: oh would you be distributing the text in full, tory?
[18:57:09] Nebbisk Oh: wow for me, many many grades ago
[18:57:16] Ina Centaur: oh not that long ago, tory. ;-)
[18:57:19] ToryLynn Writer: I have it in chapters, but I can do it in full as well, I think
[18:57:35] ToryLynn Writer: I never was in honors classes in high school...
[18:57:40] Nebbisk Oh: i'd be in... umm... around 50th grade by now
[18:57:46] Nebbisk Oh: you'd think i'd know more ;)
[18:57:46] ToryLynn Writer: and I totally should have been
[18:58:11] Ina Centaur: oh honors just basically meant more work. kinda for the dorky obssessive nerds who needed another excuse for never sleeping ;-)
[18:58:28] Ina Centaur: lol nebbisk... you're ollld ;-P\
[18:58:38] Ina Centaur: hehe jk
[18:58:40] Nebbisk Oh: yep, old as the hills and proud of it ;)
[18:58:42] ToryLynn Writer: Yeah,., my husband was an "honors" student. I was labelled "goof off drama geek"
[18:58:52] Nebbisk Oh: you know, jk are my initials
[18:59:20] Ina Centaur: mmm jp then o_O
[18:59:23] Nebbisk Oh: heh
[18:59:26] ToryLynn Writer: I'm not kidding when I say he's ooooold... he knows it :)
[18:59:37] Nebbisk Oh: you're only as old as the ones you feel
[18:59:51] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[18:59:55] Nebbisk Oh: anyway...
[18:59:57] Ina Centaur: lol
[18:59:59] Nebbisk Oh: i'm immortal
[19:00:05] Nebbisk Oh: ...so far
[19:00:20] Ina Centaur: ooh i want to figure that out.. the immortality bit
[19:00:24] Ina Centaur: what's the secret, neb?
[19:00:30] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[19:00:34] ToryLynn Writer: my dad taught me the secret
[19:00:38] ToryLynn Writer: You just... don't.... die
[19:00:45] Nebbisk Oh: the secret? i'd tell you but then i'd have to derez you
[19:00:58] Ina Centaur: hahaha
[19:01:09] Ina Centaur: hmm is derezzing inducing a new form of mortality though?
[19:01:44] Ina Centaur: o_O
[19:01:44] Nebbisk Oh: depends if we're copiable
[19:03:03] Ina Centaur: hmm cloning?
[19:03:15] Nebbisk Oh: send in the clones!
[19:04:24] Ina Centaur: lol!
[19:04:46] Ina Centaur: brb
[19:04:53] Nebbisk Oh: kk
[19:08:21] Ina Centaur: back ;-)
[19:08:26] Nebbisk Oh: wb
[19:09:58] Ina Centaur: ty :-)
[19:10:11] ToryLynn Writer: heya Ina
[19:13:04] Ina Centaur: hi snow :-)
[19:13:17] Snow Woodget: Hey there. Sneaking through the last few pages in the background here.
[19:14:09] Leslye Writer: hello
[19:14:15] Ina Centaur: hehe np... i'm having a (pre)discussion now (although all the event notices are posted at 9).. in case anyone can't make it to the 9pm discussion due to bedtime
[19:14:22] Midori Dyrssen: Hi Everyone, unfortunately RL stuff going on
[19:14:25] Midori Dyrssen: I will be back.
[19:14:30] Ina Centaur: hi leslye, midori!
[19:14:45] Nebbisk Oh: hi lesley (and midori and snow) and anyone else here that i just don't know --- hey! :)
[19:14:56] ToryLynn Writer: hello Leslye, Midori, Snow!!
[19:14:56] Ina Centaur: belated hi to torylynn and nebbiks ;-)
[19:14:58] ToryLynn Writer: WElcome!
[19:15:02] Ina Centaur: *nebbisk
[19:15:23] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[19:15:31] ToryLynn Writer: just call him Nebbie...
[19:16:07] Ina Centaur: hehe ;-)
[19:18:44] ToryLynn Writer: so, how is everybody tonight?
[19:19:39] Ina Centaur: (mute longhouse if he gets too annoying. dunno... hoping the usage of this tech might be able to bridge discussions across time)
[19:20:06] Ina Centaur: hmm i'm ok... a bit curious to see what'd happen
[19:20:11] Ina Centaur: literary discussion on SL? lol >.<
[19:20:25] Ina Centaur: oh.. not to mention.. literary discussion 30 day readathon
[19:20:36] ToryLynn Writer: damn.. it won't let me mute myself :)
[19:20:38] Ina Centaur: ... wonder if i'd have anyone left by day 20... day 30... or 31st symposium on galt's speech? >.<
[19:20:53] ToryLynn Writer: I'll finish the book with you.... hopefully..
[19:20:59] Nebbisk Oh: i'm just auditing so i don't think i'll be sticking around for the final exam ;)
[19:21:09] ToryLynn Writer: school starts Monday so I may not be able to make it to all of the discussions
[19:21:20] ToryLynn Writer: brb.. getting ice pack
[19:21:47] Ina Centaur: np.. hoping the blog would be able to keep everyone on track
[19:22:14] Nebbisk Oh: how come my camera locked in a overhead view about 10 mins ago?
[19:22:25] Nebbisk Oh: didn't happen when i first sat down -- now i can't change views at all
[19:22:37] ToryLynn Writer: that's strange
[19:22:38] Ina Centaur: oh you should be able to change view..
[19:22:43] Ina Centaur: alt - click
[19:23:06] Nebbisk Oh: yeah i can control camera with alt-click -- i mean with just arrows -- they don't respond at all
[19:23:08] Snow Woodget: Could be a bug. Would try tapping ESC twice. If that doesn't work, maybe stand and re-sit?
[19:23:23] Ina Centaur: alt - click ... then use arrows ;-)
[19:23:27] Snow Woodget: Oh sure, not all seats allow arrow camera movement.
[19:23:35] Snow Woodget: Done with mah readin'.
[19:23:42] Nebbisk Oh: ahhh right ina, arrows work now
[19:25:51] Ina Centaur: :-D
[19:26:13] Snow Woodget: So the question of the moment: Did the primbooks for Atlas Shrugged require a mega prim? *nod?*
[19:26:35] Ina Centaur: lol >.< .... mehhhhh not quiiite ;-P
[19:27:20] Ina Centaur: hmm not sure if others'd arrive... this is probably too nerdy of a use of SL >.<
[19:27:24] Ina Centaur: so let's start our discussion :-D
[19:28:17] Ina Centaur: chapter 1: The Theme --- what does it reveal to you guys so far? what do you expect to happen (if you haven't read it before); what do you think the theme is?
[19:28:45] Nebbisk Oh: i can only stay online a llittle while longer so i think i'll cut out now -- have fun you guys!
[19:29:04] Ina Centaur: nite nebbisk.
[19:29:36] Snow Woodget: It's this shifting malaise, and a sort of constant evasion of responsibility for decision, and a grasping for excuses, seems like...
[19:29:59] Ina Centaur: yes, the "blank out"
[19:30:16] Ina Centaur: but.. shifting malaise?
[19:30:59] Snow Woodget: Sure. You look at Eddie, who's not an exceptional man, but who isn't resigned and beaten yet. He knows something's wrong, but he can't point to what it is. It just manifests here and there, confusing and disorienting him.
[19:32:22] Snow Woodget: His uneasiness at the calendar, the oak tree that turned out to be rotten, confusion at James Taggart's responses... he seems to be grasping without really formulating just what's wrong.
[19:32:43] ToryLynn Writer: well.. the oak tree was an intrewsting point..
[19:32:59] Ina Centaur: oh, interesting perspective. the "blank out" is typically seen to be characteristic of the villains, rather than the semi-hero/normals like Eddie
[19:33:01] ToryLynn Writer: he sees this world that is becoming so technology centered.. and then the tree might represent, to him nature
[19:33:08] ToryLynn Writer: he is devastated by its death...
[19:33:10] Ina Centaur: but, yes, Eddie does have a bit of that evasion...
[19:33:50] Snow Woodget: I think it's just that Eddie isn't fully owned by it, yet doesn't identify it that keeps him from being great too.
[19:34:10] Ina Centaur: yes, the oak tree. to me, it kinda summarizes eddie... his ultimate demise at least (ack can't bring that up; spoiler >.<)
[19:34:24] ToryLynn Writer: demise!!
[19:34:25] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[19:34:27] ToryLynn Writer: that's alright..
[19:34:27] Ina Centaur: eddie's epithet -- great guy ruinable by a great betrayal
[19:34:56] ToryLynn Writer: he seems sort of the "middle man" the Everyman
[19:35:16] Ina Centaur: he's devastated that this thing he views as great is really just hollow nothing
[19:35:17] Snow Woodget: Sure. I think he's where a lot of people start out. Perhaps most?
[19:35:53] Snow Woodget: I've read other Rand that names the blank out. I don't know if that's quite the right term as manifested so far in the first chapter however though, Ina...
[19:36:45] Ina Centaur: hmm, what do you view the "blank out" as?
[19:36:54] Object: Touched.
[19:36:59] Snow Woodget: The one thing about these characters is that they're so explicit in their self-deception and shared evasions. Maybe it's just a literary device to more fully demonstrate how the characters work, but I think blanking out is just that - ceasing thought...
[19:37:46] ToryLynn Writer: Hello Jamey
[19:37:59] Snow Woodget: I mean, look at the different phases James Taggart went through - first trying to swat aside discussion with Eddie, then trying to make it seem as if their problems were typical of the industry as though that resolved it, then recoiling at any mention of someone better than him, and actively trying to talk down the greater men.
[19:38:01] Jamey Satyr: Hello
[19:38:30] Snow Woodget: I don't think the blank is so sophisticated as any of that. It's more the "Who is John Galt?" that seems to be signifying a blank, save in Kellogg's seemingly sarcastic use of it.
[19:38:44] Ina Centaur: hi jamey :-)
[19:38:55] Jamey Satyr: Hello, everyone.
[19:38:58] Snow Woodget: Forgive me if I ramble a bit!
[19:39:38] Jamey Satyr: I have to go ahead and go on record saying, despite a good friend telling me I ought to, sometime, that I have not, yet, read Atlas Shrugged.
[19:40:00] Ina Centaur: well, it's interesting to note that people, in general (in RL, even!), tend to have a similar degree of evasion
[19:40:20] Ina Centaur: the evasion element could be both a theme... and possibly a bonus to characterization?
[19:40:24] ToryLynn Writer: Hello Sterling
[19:40:27] Snow Woodget: Jamey: There will be a flogging later! And then you'll be made to carry a copy of AS up and down the stairs ten times!
[19:40:41] Ina Centaur: lol >.<
[19:40:55] ToryLynn Writer: ok.. brb... listening, but not here :)
[19:40:58] Ina Centaur: (there's a reason why the title isn't Atlas ShrugS ;-P )
[19:41:11] Jamey Satyr: I don't have stairs, except the ones down into my garage or down from the porch. Will I be forced to build some?
[19:41:28] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:41:47] Ina Centaur: (jamey: i'll be happy to rez stairs for you if you mean inworld )
[19:42:38] Ina Centaur: ok, so let's get back to the evasion vs blank-out
[19:42:46] Jamey Satyr: Well, meant my RL environment. Especially as I'm fairly certain that making someone carry stuff after being flogged is against the ToS, now, even if they consent to it. ;)
[19:42:52] Ina Centaur: what do you think ayn rand has "blank out" referring to, snow?
[19:43:42] Snow Woodget: That point where someone just stops thinking, reciding a patent phrase or simply not responding at all, rather than having to make a rational decision where one side or the other burdens them with loss or responsibility.
[19:44:15] Ina Centaur: well, taggart sort of does that... he doesn't recite the same phrase per se... but the lines are similar
[19:44:16] Snow Woodget: The impact's the same as what James was doing... my only observation was that I don't think folks normally articulate it the way he does. Just fade into it.
[19:44:35] Ina Centaur: "it seems to me... that we ought to give the little people a chance" (variations of that)
[19:45:07] Ina Centaur: yes, i think in chapter 1, taggart was in a particularly agitated state
[19:45:12] Snow Woodget: Sure, or saying Wyatt was demanding "more than his fair share of transportation" or the like. It's pointless, only sounds superficially meaningful.
[19:45:52] Ina Centaur: then again, i think Rand had his dialogue in that particular way to make clear who her villains are, perhaps?
[19:46:19] Jamey Satyr: There, I'll sit next to Snow and Ina, since no one else seems to wish to. ;)
[19:46:41] Ina Centaur: (hehe i just rezzed the chair there, jamey... didn't expect so many people to come >.<)
[19:46:42] Snow Woodget: That was my original thinking - that it was a literary device meant to show what he might sort of unconsciously waddle in. But naw - I'm coming to agree with what you've said. Blanking could still well be an active state.
[19:47:13] Jamey Satyr: Heh. :)
[19:48:33] Ina Centaur: yes, i think... later on, we could analyze the heroes for their bit on "blanking out"
[19:48:49] Sterling Bergbahn: LEMME GUESS, IT"S GREMLINS NIGHT?
[19:49:02] Sterling Bergbahn: HAR HAR
[19:49:17] Ina Centaur: i think everyone blanks out, but rand structures it so that the villains' blanking out tends to be more salient
[19:49:27] Ina Centaur: anyway though... but back on chapter 1.
[19:49:44] Ina Centaur: oak tree, anyone? what do you think is the significance of the oak tree from Eddie's youth?
[19:49:52] Sterling Bergbahn: WWOW, YO"URE GETTING PERSONAL
[19:50:46] Snow Woodget: I think he looks elsewhere for strength, not to himself. Seeing that fail must have been disturbing.
[19:51:13] Ina Centaur: yes, why do you think he looks elsewhere, rather than in himself, though?
[19:51:41] Jordana McMahon: sorry I'm late
[19:51:44] Ina Centaur: there was the paragraph earlier, where he remembers that Dagny and he ponder what they'd do when they grow up
[19:51:56] Ina Centaur: Dagny was basically "whatever" ... Eddie was like "whatever's right."
[19:52:13] Ina Centaur: hi jordana, we're just getting started :-)
[19:52:27] Snow Woodget: Sure, and he talks about wanting to do something great, but he couldn't quite say what greatness really was... or why they should do that. He looks to that valuation without understanding what it actually means.
[19:52:54] Snow Woodget: Or perhaps it's more where greatness actually comes from that's missing, and which leads to not understanding those other things?
[19:53:59] Ina Centaur: yes, i think you have a point there. Dagny looks to the railroads when she answered him... she had a goal set from the very beginning
[19:54:13] Jordana McMahon: I thought it was interesting that after talking about the industructable oak that was destroyed he entered the indestructable Building the what was the name Towers
[19:54:35] Ina Centaur: oh, where does greatness come from, btw?
[19:55:04] Snow Woodget: That's kinda interesting too... the reassurance the narrator voices that he feels on entering the permanent-seeming structure.
[19:55:05] Ina Centaur: oh yes, oak tree allusion to Taggart Towers
[19:55:28] Jordana McMahon: yes Taggert Towers
[19:56:03] Jordana McMahon: I thought that was an indication that the taggerts were going to fall but maybe they are not
[19:56:05] Snow Woodget: Not sure where greatness comes from. I don't know what that means as a generic term. Great for what? You need purpose to give greatness context, I guess.
[19:56:06] Ina Centaur: yes, and you find that their typewriters are broken, competent employees are quitting ... the tower is just hollow empty... similar to the oak tree
[19:56:29] Snow Woodget: innnnteresting
[19:57:12] Ina Centaur: yes, great is relative. what do you think ayn rand's definition of "greatness" is?
[19:57:58] Ina Centaur: oh.. oops missed the line. actually, the Taggarts might fall... the world is sorta on the verge of collapse.
[19:58:37] Ina Centaur: eddie walks through the streets of chapter 1 wishing that he could hide/save the competent bus drivers (etc) from some danger he can't identify
[19:59:12] Grace McDunnough: I guess to me the oak represents the great "assumption" that is, in everything we take for granted .. without struggle there is no greatness
[19:59:44] Snow Woodget: I'd guess Rand's great man would be someone who's guided by rational self-interest, independent, and motivated. Dunno.
[20:00:28] Snow Woodget: What do you think Rand's definition of greatness would be, Ina?
[20:01:04] Snow Woodget: If it's okay to direct a question like that - dunno if everything's supposed to be an open question or such. Is there book group etiquette?
[20:01:29] Jamey Satyr: /me humms, "I always thought of a great man as someone who felt as one with himself, meaning had strength of self from within, from who he was, not what he or others did or thought of him. Someone who did what was right, not because others expected him to, just because it was the right thing to do."
[20:01:40] Ina Centaur: it's open topic on atlas shrugged chapter 1. no limits on what you can ask or bring up otherwise ;-)
[20:01:48] Ina Centaur: yes, i think i agree with your perspective, snow..
[20:02:14] Ina Centaur: but i'd add that creativity, the ability to create independently, may also be a key element
[20:02:24] Snow Woodget: But yeah - I think that independence is key, and Jamey mentions just a few examples of what that means.
[20:02:35] Snow Woodget: Ah, not just rational, but able!
[20:03:00] Jamey Satyr: Yes, and true ability comes from within. From being able to think for yourself.
[20:03:29] Ina Centaur: yes, the ability to determine from his/her own mind/judgment what exactly *right* is
[20:04:18] Jamey Satyr: Anyhow, now that we've beaten that for a bit, please, go back on to the discussion of the book. It's making me more interested in reading it.
[20:05:00] Snow Woodget: I'm a bit curious about the calendar...
[20:05:16] Snow Woodget: What was the purpose for bringing that up? The weak pun on days being numbered didn't seem to warrant it...
[20:05:25] Snow Woodget: Did I miss something more?
[20:05:43] Ina Centaur: yes, i think that's ayn foreshadowing her (fantasy) US becoming totalitarian ;-)
[20:05:52] Ina Centaur: where the date is determined by the government
[20:06:15] Snow Woodget: So just that looming authority over something so basic as the date?
[20:06:17] Ina Centaur: i think that in communist nations, they actually put up calendars on public buildings... but, typically, in the US, you just see the time/temperature
[20:06:41] Ina Centaur: yup, i guess date also has cultural issues. not everyone subscribes to the same calendar o_O
[20:06:57] Ina Centaur: hehe, but i gues that's probably a minor off-tangent point
[20:07:25] Snow Woodget: Hmm. It just seemd odd for it to be so prominent. The whole rest of the chapter seemed very precisely directed toward the theme.
[20:07:25] Ina Centaur: hi harman, cameron, jordana, grace :-)
[20:08:01] Harman Mayo: 'lo
[20:08:22] Jordana McMahon: whatdd you think was the theme of the first chapter"
[20:08:32] Ina Centaur: hehe
[20:08:32] Cameron Switchblade: g'day
[20:08:52] Ina Centaur: flip theme: the end is coming!!:-O
[20:08:56] StopAllAnimations: Stopping 3 animations
[20:08:56] StopAllAnimations: Done
[20:09:26] Cameron Switchblade: oh nice, thanks
[20:10:05] Jordana McMahon: I don't know anything about the book but what does "Who is John Galt" mean
[20:10:08] Snow Woodget: We kinda started a little early. Ina asked the question about the theme once back then... mebbe let someone else answer this time. :)
[20:10:53] Ina Centaur: yup.. and if you're up for catching up on convos... http://slchatr.com/group/sliterary/longhouse ... attempts to "catch" all discussion that happens in this building and a bit of the boardwalk outside
[20:11:07] Ina Centaur: so that.. perhaps to bridge discussions, break timezone gaps and all
[20:11:54] Ina Centaur: "who is john galt" is typically labeled as a phrase "epitomizing" the ubiquitous despair in rand's dystopia
[20:11:55] Snow Woodget: /me waves through the transcript - "Hi, mom!"
[20:12:20] Cameron Switchblade: regarding theme, I'd say it'sthat individual effort, motivated by seemingly-selfish behaviours, is what drives the world forward
[20:12:50] Snow Woodget: I kind of read it as a resignation where people sign off and stop thinking, or something said as sort of a joke by people who know, and who revel in being detached from that ugliness.
[20:13:13] Ina Centaur: cameron, true to an extent... but i think the novel is actually more about how the world destroys itself...
[20:13:31] Cameron Switchblade: you read it as dystopian?
[20:13:37] Ina Centaur: and chapter 1's setting looks more like ubiquitous dystopia >.<
[20:13:55] Ina Centaur: yes, galt's gulch aside ;-)
[20:14:25] Cameron Switchblade: well there does seem to be a movement towards stasis and entropy unless someone innovates
[20:14:37] Ina Centaur: yup :-)
[20:15:10] Ina Centaur: yes, the resignation bit is definitely significant
[20:15:12] Snow Woodget: Stasis and entropy?
[20:15:25] Ina Centaur: both heroes and villains can be accused of "resignation"
[20:15:33] Ina Centaur: villains "blank out" (or go on evasive mode)
[20:15:37] Ina Centaur: heroes resign from the world...
[20:15:44] Ina Centaur: hmm but that's beyond chapter 1 again...
[20:15:48] Jordana McMahon: the characters of Dagny and her brother are interesting contrasts
[20:15:54] Jordana McMahon: who is the hero
[20:16:00] Ina Centaur: oh...
[20:16:01] Jordana McMahon: in this chapter
[20:16:07] Ina Centaur: let's see... take a guess on who hero/villains are, jordana ;-)
[20:16:19] Jordana McMahon: ok and why
[20:16:26] Snow Woodget: Resign from the world?
[20:16:35] ToryLynn Writer: I think I focused the most on Dagny because of the interest in women's issues in the Rand World
[20:16:55] Cameron Switchblade: I have to say, when I first read the book, 20 years ago, it took me about three or four goes to get through the first chapter
[20:16:59] Jordana McMahon: James is interested in being loyal Dagny is interested in being successful
[20:17:17] Cameron Switchblade: whenever I give the book to friends, which happens A LOT, I warn them to persist through the first chapter
[20:17:28] Ina Centaur: yes, tory, there was the bit where it's mentioned Dagny does all that, despite the fact that she's a woman
[20:17:41] Grace McDunnough: ... indeed, a lovely contradiction
[20:17:45] Ina Centaur: (snow, "resign from the world" ... not in suicide... but you know... quit the real world)
[20:18:31] Snow Woodget: Dunno I'd call it resigning from the world, so much as opting out of artificial barriers built by noodleheads.
[20:18:39] Grace McDunnough: LOL well said
[20:19:11] Ina Centaur: ah, but, jordana... james' loyalty might lead to the destruction of his company
[20:19:31] Jordana McMahon: absolutely he is a villain in the business world
[20:19:42] Jordana McMahon: but in another situation maybe not
[20:19:46] Snow Woodget: James' loyalty?
[20:19:50] Ina Centaur: and james does mention the socioeconomical aspect... without Taggart Transcontinental, how will the people travel? (this was before airplanes were ubiquitous i guess)
[20:19:50] Cameron Switchblade: getting back to the oak tree, it seems like a pretty straight-forward analogy for american society - the perception of eternal strength and solidity but beneath it, an empty, rotting husk
[20:19:57] Snow Woodget: Oh, to the first steel company, yeah.
[20:20:18] Jordana McMahon: Tes his friend
[20:20:21] Jordana McMahon: yes
[20:20:38] Jordana McMahon: that is not good business policy
[20:20:38] Ina Centaur: (well, snow, what do you define the "world" as then...)
[20:21:23] Snow Woodget: The world I'd say is what's real. That which doesn't go away when you stop thinking about it. I don't think the heroes ever opt out of -that-.
[20:21:51] Snow Woodget: I'd say maybe they opt out of society.
[20:21:51] Jordana McMahon: how do you know what doesn't go away when you stop thinking about it
[20:22:07] Snow Woodget: I haven't thought about it, Jordana. :)
[20:22:17] Harman Mayo: circular logic
[20:22:18] Ina Centaur: ah, then we have a difference in definitions. the world i referred to... meant the one where simple luxuries like self-serv ice cream and soda is available quickly and cheaply
[20:22:56] Ina Centaur: world = "the world that exists (due to history, industrial revolution, etc)"
[20:23:06] Cameron Switchblade: we could go down a metaphysics rabbit hole here, delve into the nature of consciousness, but Rand would have despised that kind of talk methinks
[20:23:16] Harman Mayo: i agree
[20:23:32] Harman Mayo: she was very focused on the conciousness of self
[20:23:47] Jordana McMahon: well we can enjoy te book without agreeing with her
[20:23:59] Harman Mayo: i don't agree with her
[20:24:07] Harman Mayo: but still enjoy the book
[20:24:32] Ina Centaur: hehe, i think rand would argue otherwise on enjoying the book w/o agreeing with her) ;-P
[20:24:51] Harman Mayo: she might have
[20:25:08] Ina Centaur: but anyway, scrolling up to cameron's point about the oak tree representing american society...
[20:25:36] Ina Centaur: cameron, do you believe that atlas shrugged's "wordl" is realistic to the modern world right now?
[20:25:42] Snow Woodget: There's not much to handle there, though. The notion that the world goes away if I stop thinking about it is kinda arbitrary, not suggested by evidence. Don't have to entertain an arbitrary idea not proceeding from observation or rational analysis to dismiss it, or I'd be spending my whole day trying to disprove invisible unicorns and my household appliances in a conspiracy against me.
[20:26:38] Cameron Switchblade: @ina if by "realistic" you are asking do I think her depiction of American society as perilously close to collapsing in on itself, then yes
[20:26:40] Snow Woodget: (Not that they aren't - should see what my washer can do to a new pair of socks!) >:(
[20:26:41] Harman Mayo: you know about the appliance conspiracy?
[20:27:06] Cameron Switchblade: @snow when you are in a state of deep sleep or unconsciousness, does the world continue to exist for you?
[20:27:06] Ina Centaur: (on metaphysics: rand definitely does not believe in any of the modern "tripe"... for her, the world exists whether or not you *want* it to or not)
[20:27:12] Harman Mayo: sure - we have 6 of the 7 signs of an empire in decay
[20:27:25] Jamey Satyr: To all practical purposes, regardless if you believe in Schrodengers Cat or not, if you open the door, most of the time, what's beyond it will be the same as it was when you closed it.
[20:27:27] Ina Centaur: (and then later, you'd find that her villains sorta "die" from evading the fact that reality exists independent of their acceptance of it)
[20:27:36] Jamey Satyr: Not taking into account random dogs digging up the lawn.
[20:27:47] Snow Woodget: /me shakefist! Dogs!
[20:27:57] Ina Centaur: ("die" ... incorporating general cases where the villains have psychological breakdowns, etc)
[20:28:24] Cameron Switchblade: The trunk was only an empty shell; its heart had rotted away long ago; there was nothing inside?just a thin gray dust that was being dispersed by the whim of the faintest wind.
[20:28:25] Jordana McMahon: modern tripe?
[20:28:46] Ina Centaur: @cameron - do you think our current society's about to collapse?
[20:29:25] Cameron Switchblade: @Ina Western society? I think it is extremely close to collapsing in itself.
[20:29:36] Cameron Switchblade: in on itself
[20:30:29] Ina Centaur: @jamey, schrodinger's cat doesn't exactly apply. it is just an "interpretation" to the results of quantum mechanics. there are other equally valid interpretations that do not put reality in this superposition of uncertainty.
[20:30:53] Jamey Satyr: It was a simple shorthand to cut beyond the 'invisible unicorns' stuff.
[20:31:25] Ina Centaur: @Cameron - what do you think the milestones are for the great implosion? ;-P
[20:31:40] ToryLynn Writer: re:society's collapse: They say that societies go through cycles.. and a lot of historians and socialogists are talking about how this society, our current world, is on the bring of collapse merely because we are nearing the end of a cycle
[20:32:03] Jamey Satyr: We don't, after all, wish to fill the log with the long-hand discussions on Quantum Physics when we're supposed to be discussing a book and the possible ramifications of images and scenes portrayed within it. ;)
[20:32:07] Ina Centaur: @tory... ww3? o_O
[20:32:36] ToryLynn Writer: maybe not ww3, but the change in how the system works...
[20:33:42] ToryLynn Writer: we had the dark ages, renaissance and enlightenment, the technology age... we are working towards a new society..
[20:33:48] ToryLynn Writer: even here.. maybe a global society
[20:33:57] Harman Mayo: bead and circuses
[20:34:03] Cameron Switchblade: @Ina we are, according to people like Chomsky, closer now to MAD than ever before in human history. The majority of climate scientists believe we have done enourmous damage to the environment. The rich countries are creating thin excuses to invade poor countries, kill their citizens, take their resources, ignoring the comlpaints of other global citizens.
[20:34:10] Harman Mayo: bread rather
[20:34:51] Cameron Switchblade: corporations, run by a small handful of wealthy white men, are running amok.
[20:35:04] Cameron Switchblade: with the USA as their weapon
[20:35:13] Cameron Switchblade: yeah, I'd say we're living in very interesting times
[20:35:20] Harman Mayo: amok? how so?
[20:35:42] Harman Mayo: and how does that relate to Atlas Shrugged?
[20:36:22] Ina Centaur: @tory.. it'd be interesting if ww occurs and the internet somehow still stays up. i guess SL (being the only 3d world software with 8 milliion users) would be the new world
[20:36:23] Cameron Switchblade: @harman amok as in destroying countries, killing millions of innocent civilians, destroying the environment, taking from the poor... this was an answer to a question about the meaning of Rand's "oak tree" analogy in Chapter one
[20:36:26] Ina Centaur: (not an ad for LL >.< )
[20:36:52] Cameron Switchblade: a society that appears stong and stable but is really rotten to the core
[20:37:12] Ina Centaur: @cameron: people often cry that armageddon is nearing... so curious, what are people like Chomsky doing other than being doomsayer?
[20:37:12] Harman Mayo: but your claim was it was corproations
[20:37:27] Harman Mayo: i have yet to see a corproation invade a country
[20:37:40] Grace McDunnough: He's evading ;-)
[20:37:46] Cameron Switchblade: @Ina chomsky is raising awareness, motivating people to mobilize
[20:37:54] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:37:55] Cameron Switchblade: @Harman hahahahaha
[20:38:08] Ina Centaur: the USA = corporation in disguise ;-P
[20:38:19] Ina Centaur: >.<
[20:38:21] Cameron Switchblade: follow the money Harman
[20:38:31] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:38:35] Cameron Switchblade: who is profiting from the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?
[20:38:57] Cameron Switchblade: anyway, back to Rand
[20:39:01] Harman Mayo: profit/
[20:39:07] Cameron Switchblade: and the virtue of selfishness
[20:39:12] Snow Woodget: Think we've kinda wandered pretty afar of the book, and I've learned political discussions with strangers tend not to resolve much. Is the group likely starting again early tomorrow?
[20:39:29] Cameron Switchblade: sorry folks, I'm happy to get off the subject
[20:39:45] Harman Mayo: I agree snow
[20:39:47] Ina Centaur: @snow: hoping to do a chapter a night for the 30 days of august...
[20:40:06] Harman Mayo: the book is pretty straightforwasrd in the first chapter
[20:40:27] Harman Mayo: a general breakdown of an industrial society
[20:40:27] Jordana McMahon: what do you think of Rands writing ability
[20:40:37] Harman Mayo: it needn't be the US
[20:40:47] Harman Mayo: could have been set anywhere
[20:41:02] Ina Centaur: rand is a great writer who's basically written the equivalent of the bible... give it another 2000 years, and it'd be about as popular ;-)
[20:41:08] Harman Mayo: Rand just went with a location she knew
[20:41:19] Ina Centaur: (statistically, Atlas Shrugged is #2 bestseller only to the bible)
[20:41:35] Jordana McMahon: I think it is good writing but the critics don't agree
[20:41:43] Jordana McMahon: they say melodraatic
[20:41:55] Harman Mayo: It is
[20:41:58] Jordana McMahon: melodramatic
[20:42:02] Ina Centaur: harman, breakdown isn't exactly explicit in the first chapter
[20:42:03] Snow Woodget: I don't know, Harman. The key thing is that it's a wealthy once-independent society in decline. You could pick some other locations that might suit it, but likely more never rose enough to be able to fall as depicted in the book.
[20:42:09] Harman Mayo: but i think she exagerated to make her point
[20:42:10] Ina Centaur: you see decay, but you don't see buildings collapsing just yet ;-)
[20:42:34] Cameron Switchblade: the buildings are another analogy
[20:42:39] Snow Woodget: I'm not even sure she exaggerates, so much as has characters state their positions and motives explicitly.
[20:42:42] Ina Centaur: ... or the lights of NY blinking out (incidentally, back when that happened last year or so, i almost went on paranoia mode >.<)
[20:43:13] Snow Woodget: It would be a less effective book if you couldn't see into how each character works quite as vividly.
[20:43:26] Harman Mayo: sue - and oil as blood is yet another analogy
[20:43:52] Grace McDunnough: In the context of what we know of Ayn .. after all her work seems inflated in the context of her beliefs
[20:44:18] Jamey Satyr: At this time, Oil is the lifeblood of our society. Without it, everything screeches to a halt.
[20:44:24] Harman Mayo: her philosophy is an integral part of her writing
[20:44:25] Ina Centaur: yes, some argue that her fiction is made impure by her tendency to turn her characters into arguments
[20:44:36] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:44:42] Snow Woodget: Hee. Impure!
[20:44:56] Grace McDunnough: :) in that case, we call it fact, not fiction
[20:45:00] Ina Centaur: yes, i agree. the philosophy is what makes her fiction immortal
[20:45:16] Harman Mayo: nods at Ina
[20:46:05] Grace McDunnough: Has everyone read the book?
[20:46:15] Jordana McMahon: only the first chapter
[20:46:17] Jamey Satyr: I have not.
[20:46:22] Grace McDunnough: Oh, ok ..
[20:46:23] Cameron Switchblade: many times
[20:46:45] Jamey Satyr: Which is a good part of why I'm mostly silent. That and I'm eating a pizza, IRL. ;)
[20:47:14] Grace McDunnough: We should be cautious so as not to become spoilers ... *pokes Ina*
[20:47:35] Snow Woodget: Snape kills James Taggart!
[20:47:36] Ina Centaur: oh many times ;-)
[20:47:41] Damian Stonewall: I'm reading the first chapter now. ;-)
[20:47:42] Ina Centaur: reread the first chapter just a few hours ago
[20:47:47] Jamey Satyr: Knowing where a story ends does not always maar enjoyment of reading/watching/experiencing it.
[20:47:59] Snow Woodget: And Darth Vader is Dagny's father.
[20:48:09] Ina Centaur: yeup we're limited to chapter 1 only, today, ok? ;-P
[20:48:18] Jordana McMahon: i liked the concept of discussing a book chapter by chapter
[20:48:19] Damian Stonewall: I'm on the railroad tracks, asking about the signal.
[20:48:20] Ina Centaur: oh right and luke is dagny's long lost twin brother
[20:48:25] Ina Centaur: and james was adopted actually
[20:48:26] Ina Centaur: o_O
[20:48:32] Ina Centaur: haha jk jk jk >.<
[20:48:49] Jordana McMahon: I wanted to continue to the second chapter but resisted
[20:48:50] Grace McDunnough: And we have not mentioned Halley's music
[20:49:06] Jordana McMahon: Oh yeah is there really a Haley
[20:49:12] Ina Centaur: oh yes, which RL composer do you guys think Halley was based on?
[20:49:43] Jordana McMahon: someone who doesn't have a fifth symphony
[20:49:56] Snow Woodget: I don't know. For some reason I couldn't stop whistling Beethoven's Ode to Joy around that point.
[20:50:14] Harman Mayo: Beethoven came to mind for me as well
[20:50:17] Ina Centaur: yes beethoven's a suspect for Halley's RL counterpart
[20:50:20] Cameron Switchblade: I always pegged him as Wagner
[20:50:21] Ina Centaur: rachmaninoff and liszt, perhaps too
[20:50:32] Harman Mayo: but I prefer to think of him as Nat King Cole
[20:50:45] Harman Mayo: his tunes are much more whistlable
[20:50:48] Ina Centaur: lol nat king cole and concertos? ;-P
[20:51:10] Jordana McMahon: was it concertos i forgot
[20:51:21] Jordana McMahon: or is it concerti
[20:52:00] Ina Centaur: ah concerti, to be precise ;-)
[20:52:15] Ina Centaur: latin conjugations...
[20:52:21] Ina Centaur: declensions. oops
[20:52:28] Jordana McMahon: ty
[20:52:54] Snow Woodget: It was fun, though, to have Dangy so drawn by that music, and then to have James telling her she'd never felt a thing. Not like normal people.
[20:52:57] Ina Centaur: in Fountainhead, Rand mentions Rachmaninof's Piano Concerto #3
[20:53:10] Ina Centaur: i imagine Halley, for her, might be Rach
[20:53:13] Cameron Switchblade: ah the Rach 3!
[20:53:18] Harman Mayo: but rand refers to them improperly as concertos
[20:53:45] Ina Centaur: i think both usage are "allowed."
[20:53:53] Ina Centaur: http://www.google.com/search?q=define: concertos
[20:54:01] Ina Centaur: ;-P the big W actually has it with a -s
[20:54:17] Harman Mayo: hehehe - i'm a poet, so i take even greater liberties in my own work
[20:54:37] Jamey Satyr: Just as an asside, but relation to this discussion, I have to say I have always loved media's ability to mean so many different things to so many different people, often regardless, or despite, a author's intent for something to _have_ meaning. Media is often a subjective experience, no matter how many people are enjoying it at the same time.
[20:55:20] Ina Centaur: yes, Atlas Shrugged is similar to the bible in that different people read it at different times in their lives and it means different things
[20:55:35] Grace McDunnough: I'm finding that true this time
[20:55:37] Harman Mayo: sure - there are songs that the authors swear have no hidden meaning - and yet are analyzed incessantly in classes and the media
[20:57:17] Harman Mayo: and I fully agree with Ina - what Atls Shrugged "means" changes depending upon the perspective of the reader
[20:57:59] Jordana McMahon: is that a bad thing?
[20:58:07] Harman Mayo: not at all
[20:58:22] Harman Mayo: that's the beauty of the book
[20:58:31] Jordana McMahon: I would agree
[20:58:32] Jamey Satyr: I'm reminded of a friend(no, I won't name drop) who took a class in apreciating fiction. He was quite hopeful that it would strengthen his ability to write meaningful books. The class started out alright, with introductions and then got underway with the teacher bringing out a book and who then started talking about what it meant, and the hidden philosophical directions the author was going in. He interrupted saying, "That's not what it means!", and the teacher said to him, "Well, I've been studying writing for most of my carreer, how would you know what it means?!", to which he replied, "Because _I_ wrote the book.", then he left the class and dropped it.
[20:58:47] Harman Mayo: everyone can relate to it on some level
[20:59:08] Harman Mayo: regardless of social/economic/political status
[20:59:48] Snow Woodget: Sometimes I think it's a benefit to authors whose works are most-widely read and dissected that it happens after they die. :)
[21:00:26] Ina Centaur: @jamey... lol... typically i'd imagine authors smile or smirk when they find a reader interprets their piece completely differently. but, yes, i think your friend sounds like how Ayn might have reacted if you drop into Feminism 101 and find that her books are on the required reading list ;-P
[21:00:48] Jamey Satyr: Oh, I don't know, I think sometimes it can bring a chuckle to find out someone's saying we meant something else, and to sometimes deflate the 'stuffed shirts' who think they can tell someone what a work of art _means_.
[21:00:51] Ina Centaur: *you=she ;-P
[21:00:54] Cameron Switchblade: there is also the position that authors are not really the best people to judge what they wrote or what it means. they are just the vehicle.
[21:01:38] Snow Woodget: I gotta timeout. Was nice meeting many of ya, look forward to tomorrow
[21:01:39] Jordana McMahon: but she is not donw the line on everything there are many feminist ideas in the first chapter
[21:01:47] Jamey Satyr: Goodnight, Snow.
[21:02:02] Grace McDunnough: Good night Snow, very .. nice to meet you :)
[21:02:11] Ina Centaur: nite snow.
[21:02:12] Jordana McMahon: well maybe not many but some
[21:02:16] Grace McDunnough: Snow melts quickly
[21:02:49] Jamey Satyr: Still, regardless of thinking of the writer as 'meerely the vehicle', something often has to have meaning to a writer, for him or her to write it in the first place.
[21:03:06] Ina Centaur: hmmm... should probably turn the thermostat down o_O
[21:03:51] Grace McDunnough: Ina, seriously a chapter a day ..every day .. here, same time?
[21:04:03] Ina Centaur: @jordana: i think Rand was actually asked if she was a feminist, and she said no...
[21:04:17] Grace McDunnough: She most definitely said no
[21:04:36] Ina Centaur: i guess "confining" herself to being a feminist would degrade objectivism.
[21:04:46] ToryLynn Writer: Rand can't be a feminist..her women depend too much on men completing them
[21:04:48] Jordana McMahon: I can see that but Dagny seems to be the intellectual equal of anyone in the first chapter
[21:04:49] Harman Mayo: yes - she never defined herself as a feminist
[21:05:19] Jordana McMahon: and professionally too
[21:05:21] Damian Stonewall: I'd say Dagny's the superior of anyone in the chapter, at least in terms of effectiveness -- though this Kellogg seems to have her number.
[21:05:59] Ina Centaur: @grace, yup a chapter a day... discussions can go on all day here... the http://slchatr.com/group/sliterary/longhouse attempts to save chats to bridge conversations separated across spacetime ;-P
[21:06:07] Jamey Satyr: Too many rabid feminists out there. Gives 'feminism' a bad name.
[21:06:17] Jamey Satyr: Equal but different.
[21:06:32] Harman Mayo: Yes, Dagny is the only truly strong character we meet in the first chapter
[21:06:39] Cameron Switchblade: @Damian what about the anonymous brakeman humming the Halley?
[21:07:23] Harman Mayo: foreshadowing
[21:07:25] Damian Stonewall: He doesn't seem to derive any pleasure from thwarting her. ;)
[21:07:36] Ina Centaur: @tory... independence is the key to entering Galt's Gulch though.. her women aren't actually *that* dependent
[21:07:51] Ina Centaur: (in theory, if dagny never finds galt... she would have self-persisted... albeit in a less happy existence)
[21:08:39] Jordana McMahon: Is Ina on a dread mill
[21:08:45] Grace McDunnough: LOL we lost her
[21:12:04] Grace McDunnough: are we being abducted, or are we one for the session?
[21:12:28] Grace McDunnough: Welcome back, Ina
[21:12:30] Jordana McMahon: nice landing
[21:13:08] Jamey Satyr: Heh.
[21:13:13] Ina Centaur: lol ty >.<
[21:13:15] Jordana McMahon: wow
[21:13:18] Jamey Satyr: Probably just a sim hiccup, or something.
[21:13:24] Ina Centaur: lost the wireless
[21:13:30] Jamey Satyr: We who didn't DC are probably the lucky ones. ;)
[21:13:31] Ina Centaur: oh did the sim crash?
[21:13:46] Harman Mayo: nope
[21:13:48] Grace McDunnough: no, it's still here
[21:13:58] Ina Centaur: yup. just my wireless then..
[21:14:23] Jamey Satyr: Well, you wern't the only one to suddenly drop, is all I'm saying. :)
[21:14:30] Jordana McMahon: do you know if many people came during the day to discuss
[21:15:13] Jordana McMahon: its after 12 my time so kinda sleepy
[21:15:44] Ina Centaur: hehe
[21:15:52] Grace McDunnough: This is Ina's testament to "without great suffrering, there is no greatness"
[21:16:01] Jordana McMahon: oh I see
[21:16:08] Ina Centaur: ???
[21:16:10] Ina Centaur: my testament?
[21:16:21] Grace McDunnough: It's after 1AM for me, so I may retire
[21:16:49] Jordana McMahon: me too but I look forward to the next chapter
[21:16:54] Jordana McMahon: good nite all
[21:17:00] Grace McDunnough: Good night
[21:17:01] Ina Centaur: yup.
[21:17:04] Ina Centaur: nite jordana
[21:17:06] Jamey Satyr: Goodnight.
[21:17:46] Ina Centaur: hmm i guess this concludes the day
[21:17:48] Ina Centaur: 's discussion
[21:18:02] Grace McDunnough: Thank you, Ina. This is a fine exercise
[21:18:15] Ina Centaur: hehe nite, grace ;-)
[21:18:34] Ina Centaur: oh wb tory!
[21:18:36] Jamey Satyr: It was nice of you to invite me, even though I haven't read the book. I ought to be more involved in the SL writer's community.
[21:18:46] Ina Centaur: oh jamey, do catch up for tomorrow!
[21:18:55] Grace McDunnough: Welcome back Tory, and good night :)
[21:19:03] Ina Centaur: chapter 1 is actually not that long. lots of mysteries/subplots that it initiates too
[21:19:18] Jamey Satyr: We'll see if I can. :)
[21:19:51] Ina Centaur: tory, the feminism thing you mentioned before we crashed was interesting
[21:20:00] Ina Centaur: (i think we both subscribe to at
[21:20:15] ToryLynn Writer: yeah
[21:20:29] ToryLynn Writer: remind me again what it was?
[21:20:57] Ina Centaur: you said she couldn't be a feminist since her women were too dependent (on men)
[21:21:06] Ina Centaur: [21:07:36] Ina Centaur: @tory... independence is the key to entering Galt's Gulch though.. her women aren't actually *that* dependent
[21:21:14] Ina Centaur: [21:07:51] Ina Centaur: (in theory, if dagny never finds galt... she would have self-persisted... albeit in a less happy existence)
[21:21:42] ToryLynn Writer: aaah.. I haven't gotten that far yet.. I have read up to about the point that she's mooning over that guy whose name I cant think of :)
[21:22:10] Ina Centaur: hehe
[21:22:14] Ina Centaur: francisco?
[21:22:19] ToryLynn Writer: she seems so dependant on him... and the whole flashback thing
[21:22:21] ToryLynn Writer: yeah.him
[21:22:28] Jamey Satyr: Love and crushes do not necissarily equate to being dependant. It's in our nature to try and find someone to love.
[21:22:36] ToryLynn Writer: true
[21:23:08] ToryLynn Writer: I'm not saying that you can't be in love and be independant (lord knows, I try), but... she seems to base so much of her happiness on his presence sometimes
[21:23:34] Harman Mayo: i disagree - true love is interdependent
[21:24:09] Harman Mayo: but I'm a big Covey fan
[21:25:03] ToryLynn Writer: there is a certain dependancy in love (maybe THAT's why my sister can't keep a boyfriend.. too independant).... but there has to be some independancy or you lose yourself completely sometimes
[21:25:18] Ina Centaur: it's not necessarily dependence.. more like a need to be able to share.
[21:25:30] Ina Centaur: her heroes seek companionship from other heroes
[21:26:04] Ina Centaur: and... when companionship can't be found, they don't just go heartbroken and cry... they move on
[21:26:08] Jamey Satyr: /me shrugs, "People newly in love often seem to focus completely on the subject of their affections. It's not a good thing, but doesn't always state that they are dependant. And 'true love', if it really exists, well, no, you're still two individuals with individual thoughts, hopes, dreams, and minds. The only way for truely happy relationships that work out is to remember that your significant other is his/her own person, too."
[21:26:31] Ina Centaur: you'll get to the bit when francisco's nature appears to change (from Dagny's perspective) at least
[21:26:33] ToryLynn Writer: ooh good quote :)
[21:26:44] Harman Mayo: that's the essence of interdependence
[21:26:50] ToryLynn Writer: well.. I'm going to-re-read chapter 1 and 2 tomorrow
[21:27:40] ToryLynn Writer: ok.. it is bedtime. I have to be up at 5am
[21:27:45] ToryLynn Writer: /me waves goodnight to all
[21:27:48] ToryLynn Writer: /wave
[21:27:50] Ina Centaur: nite tory
[21:28:06] Harman Mayo: it's kind of like the two partd creating a third entity that's greater than the sum of its parts
[21:28:08] ToryLynn Writer: Night Ina
[21:28:11] ToryLynn Writer: Night Harman
[21:28:18] Harman Mayo: night Tory
[21:28:25] ToryLynn Writer: Night Jamey :)
[21:28:51] Harman Mayo: and i need to jet as well - much to do and little time
[21:29:21] Harman Mayo: thanks again, Ina - nice to meet you, Jamey
[21:29:28] Jamey Satyr: Nice to meet you, too.
[21:29:36] Ina Centaur: np. nite harman
[21:29:43] Harman Mayo: until the next time
[21:30:04] Jamey Satyr: I just do not like the 'two becoming one' analogy', in any way shape or form.
[21:30:20] Jamey Satyr: It lessens the individuals involved.
[21:30:52] Ina Centaur: lol, i guess Rand would disagree with the conventional definition of true love..
[21:31:00] Ina Centaur: where the couple becomes as "one"
[21:31:23] Ina Centaur: she'd think that's common-dependence...
[21:31:49] Ina Centaur: but, i think the idea actually refers to the two being complimentary
[21:32:39] Jamey Satyr: Complementing is one thing, and I can more than agree on that statement. But it's like saying the chocolate in a cake becomes just another part of a cake.
[21:32:52] Jamey Satyr: Er, the whole 'two become one' thing.
[21:33:16] Ina Centaur: complementary... like sometimes couples tend to just complete each others's sentences
[21:33:25] Jamey Satyr: I mean, seriously, a Reeses Peanut Butter Cup, you still know fully that it's peanut butter and chocolate going together really well.
[21:33:43] Jamey Satyr: Feh. I do that with friends, sometimes.
[21:34:14] Ina Centaur: hehe
[21:34:24] Ina Centaur: or, being able to recognize the other's handwriting
[21:34:28] Ina Centaur: or even obscure train of thought..
[21:34:52] Ina Centaur: not sure about the chocolate cake analogy..
[21:35:41] Jamey Satyr: Ah well. I just don't like the 'two become one' stuff.
[21:36:03] Ina Centaur: yeah, it sorta implies a spooky metaphysics telepathy ;-)
[21:37:16] Ina Centaur: definitely, Rand would not believe in the "two becomes one" or the dependence part
[21:38:09] Jamey Satyr: Well, more to the point, our social structures are constantly in flux, and each one of us, even a close husband and wife, have different experiences and thoughts, and interests, no matter how familiar we are with the other person. The _best_ relationships, yes, do have the two individuals involved constantly including the other in their interests, and in their thoughts, even when in mutually exclusive interests.
[21:39:56] Ina Centaur: rrue. so the "two becomes one" is more like "the other thinks of the other"
[21:40:10] Ina Centaur: or "the other includes the other" in virtually all plans
[21:41:19] Jamey Satyr: Yes, but it's a conscious thing, even if it's 'unconscious', it's still chosen by the persons doing it. Constant communication and constant respect as well as belief and trust in a partner are the best ways to handle a relationship.
[21:42:27] Jamey Satyr: They're also a bit unrealistic, at times, given the current state of humanity, especially in the US. ;)
[21:43:07] Ina Centaur: yes
[21:43:18] Ina Centaur: miscommunication or the lack of communication = source of all griefing
[21:43:38] Ina Centaur: state of humanity?
[21:44:49] Jamey Satyr: Yes, our current state of being. Most people are too involved in themselves to truely think of someone else. It's not their fault, it's how our society has raised us.
[21:45:55] Ina Centaur: well, then again...
[21:46:04] Jamey Satyr: Well, not _all_ their fault. It's still a choice, but a choice has to come from our experiences, and if they haven't gone out of their way to experience(aka read) how other people might think, they only have the way they were raised to use as an example. ;)
[21:46:06] Ina Centaur: often times, when you think of (doing something for) someone else...
[21:46:11] Ina Centaur: you often find that that's not exactly what they need
[21:46:35] Ina Centaur: it's like that one o henry story.. the gift of the magician(?)
[21:46:54] Jamey Satyr: Don't believe I recall that one.
[21:47:12] Ina Centaur: gift of the magi
[21:47:42] Ina Centaur: two couples, poor. give each other gifts. girl sells her hair to buy links or something for man's watch. man sells his watch to buy combs for girl.
[21:48:16] Ina Centaur: it's a case that reoccurs. one thinks of the other... but after the process of acting for the other, one finds that one's actions are wasted/redundant
[21:49:42] Jamey Satyr: Sometimes that is the case, especially when you're doing something without letting the other know you're doing it.
[21:49:42] Ina Centaur: the act of acting or thinking for someone else might not always have beneficial consequences
[21:49:54] Ina Centaur: ... and rarely ends up as you expected
[21:50:17] Ina Centaur: yes and you'd do something thinking that you'd give the other a great surprise to see
[21:50:24] Ina Centaur: it's for a benevolent thought
[21:51:52] Jamey Satyr: Well, often that's not the best way to do something, to try and give someone something without letting them know, as I said. If you did want to do something for someone, it'd be best to ask them if they wanted it, first. Sometimes the other person is in the process of getting it for themselves.
[21:52:31] Ina Centaur: true... but then you have the case of mea culpa who wouldn't let you know that they actually want something, even if you explicitly asked
[21:52:45] Ina Centaur: and then, traditionally, you'd be blamed for asking them -.-
[21:53:22] Ina Centaur: hi starry
[21:54:16] Jamey Satyr: Ah, but that's not entirely the United States way of living. That's focusing on one specific portion of the people in the US. Most people arn't going to be up in arms over someone asking if they can give them a gift. Especially if they say it's just because.
[21:55:09] Ina Centaur: well, suppose you have a neighbor
[21:55:13] Ina Centaur: everyone knows they're poor.
[21:55:19] Jamey Satyr: Besides, 'doing something for someone else' isn't always about giving them a gift.
[21:55:30] Ina Centaur: they're your next door neighbor. you can see their broken windows and deflated car tires every time you look out your study window
[21:55:43] Jamey Satyr: Most of the time, giving someone a gift isn't really about them, it's about making yourself feel good for giving them something.
[21:55:56] Ina Centaur: so, if you go up to them and ask if they need money. they'd neversay yes... and it's considered socially impolite, i guess.. even though it's obvious to everyone they do need it
[21:56:12] Ina Centaur: there's the rare chance where if you secretly give them money, it'd ruin them
[21:57:01] Jamey Satyr: Money is never really a gift, in my eyes. Money is just money. It has no inherent value of it's own. Well, maybe as insulation, or to use as kindling in starting a fire..
[21:57:11] Ina Centaur: ah, so you might also believe that "sacrifice" is actually selfish..
[21:57:46] Ina Centaur: when you "sacrifice/donate" your brand new printer or computer to charity, it's really about making yourself feel good... than the inner city urchin who might benefit?
[21:58:05] Ina Centaur: well, ok so in that neighbor case...
[21:58:12] Ina Centaur: suppose you gift them some brand new tires and new windows
[21:58:16] Jamey Satyr: No.
[21:58:34] Ina Centaur: ... and then, if gift of the magi occurs, the nex day you find that they're actually remodeling their house to be window-less o_O
[21:58:43] Jamey Satyr: I'm not saying _that_ is merely to make you feel good. That's a actual gift. Something you know you want, but something you gave up to help someone else.
[22:00:44] Jamey Satyr: And the best way to 'help' someone is to offer to _help_ them. Helping fix the windows, after offering to help them do it, not paying to have it done without their knowledge. If that same person says no, that's up to them. It's their choice to accept help or not.
[22:01:12] Jamey Satyr: No one can have help forced on them. That's living their life for them, not helping them at all.
[22:01:56] Ina Centaur: well, it's usually more complicated than that
[22:02:08] Ina Centaur: if you live in the type of neighborhood when that happens often... in theory, your houses are squat close to each other
[22:02:18] Ina Centaur: so you can probably hear their children shivering at night due to the draft from the broken window
[22:02:33] Ina Centaur: so suppose you have (in this hypothetical case), parents who are too proud to accept help
[22:02:56] Ina Centaur: but, as a neighbor, you're observing that this broken window issue is definitely non trivial to the children, for ex
[22:03:47] Jamey Satyr: In said hypothetical case, after talking about their children, and they still refuse help even to keep their kids from catching pneumonia and dying, then they arn't fit parrents and Child Welfare should be called.
[22:04:25] Jamey Satyr: PRIDE has no place in it when your kids/spouse/any family member who depends on you is involved.
[22:04:55] Ina Centaur: hmm,how would you define involved?
[22:05:14] Ina Centaur: pride is a major part of family life, and a lot of families are actually ruined by it
[22:05:31] Jamey Satyr: Perhaps the instance of dying from exposure to the elements that you brought in to try and prove your point.
[22:05:56] Ina Centaur: another example, less life-and-death.. suppose Junior gets a scholarship to the magnet high school, but parents decide it's too posh or stuck-up (a sort of "reversed"pride)
[22:07:12] Jamey Satyr: What does this example have to do with helping people?
[22:07:30] Ina Centaur: it has to do with pride
[22:07:56] Ina Centaur: so, the parents might give excuses like... it'd take too long to commute, etc.
[22:08:20] Ina Centaur: perhaps an "altruistic" teacher might volunteer to carpool
[22:08:44] Ina Centaur: but still, assume for this case (as actually happens oft in RL), that the parents are stubborn about their beliefs
[22:08:59] Ina Centaur: their stubbornness can really only be attributed to pride
[22:09:11] Jamey Satyr: And?
[22:09:33] Ina Centaur: just saying. pride is always involved in family situations..
[22:09:48] Ina Centaur: and perhaps even group situations where a leader or 'role-in-power' is involved :-|
[22:10:11] Jamey Satyr: Very well, I concede, you're right, I'm wrong.
[22:11:02] Ina Centaur: ah... well, just
[22:11:11] Ina Centaur: putting my own bit in ;-)
[22:11:36] Ina Centaur: interesting how the convo's digressed >.<
[22:12:01] Jamey Satyr: I will certainly keep it in mind the next time I see parrents not taking care of their children out of neglect.
[22:12:49] Ina Centaur: well, as an aside... back when i was much younger, i had firsthand experience of this family-life-death-broken-window situation
[22:13:07] Ina Centaur: dunno, from my own perspective, the only thing that makes sense to me would be pride.
[22:13:35] Ina Centaur: but then again, my cases are particular, and there are other cases that might disprove this POV
[22:14:43] Jamey Satyr: I refuse to continue this line of the conversation.
[22:15:12] Ina Centaur: moot point -.-
[22:15:43] Jamey Satyr: It would just make me sound preechy, and you're entrenched in your viewpoint as well.
[22:15:45] Ina Centaur: how did we digress from Rand to pride and family life? o_O
[22:17:14] Jamey Satyr: Talking on how 'dependant' Rand's women are, and how love or a crush does not specify dependance, and then talk about 'two becoming one' as the whole viewpoint on relationships go, and how it's the untimate in dependance, and how I disagreed with that..
[22:18:21] Ina Centaur: lol..
[22:18:44] Ina Centaur: yes, and then i brought up gift of the magi somehow and it went for gifts given but aren't needed (or accepted)...
[22:18:54] Ina Centaur: right...
[22:19:02] Ina Centaur: hmm but i think i'm going to try to wrap things up
[22:19:11] Ina Centaur: http://atlasshrugged.inacentaur.com
[22:19:34] Jamey Satyr: I'd have thought everything was already wrapped up, when it was just the two of us left.
[22:19:39] Ina Centaur: ... try to summarize tonight's discussion in blog form ... so that others who couldn't make it can post comments or something i guess
[22:20:20] Ina Centaur: nah, the in/dependence issue is actually quite relevant to Atlas SHrugged
[22:20:25] Jamey Satyr: You might wish to cut our discussion out, then, as it was way off topic.
[22:20:34] Ina Centaur: later on, you'd find that the "creed" (or ëntry key") to Galt's Gulch goes something like this:
[22:20:45] Ina Centaur: 'i promise never to depend on anyone else, and never let anyone else depend on me.'
[22:22:05] Jamey Satyr: I'm sure that's supposed to be taken in the simplest form, as, except in a hunter/gatherer society, everyone in a complex societal system depends on each other for continued survival, to some degree or another.
[22:22:12] Ina Centaur: yeah, this thing on 'as one' ... it's a long throw away from Atlas Shrugged, but still more or less somewhat related ;-)
[22:22:52] Ina Centaur: yup the creed basically "disallows" dagny, for example, from saying to galt "oh, i totally need you to survive"
[22:23:46] Ina Centaur: incidentally, here's a totally irreverent humor piece on A.S.
[22:24:28] Ina Centaur: http://www.mskousen.com/Books/Articles/shrugged.html
[22:24:39] Jamey Satyr: Alright.
[22:27:46] Ina Centaur: i am going more or less afk for a bit to try to summarize this discussion. i've notified a couple of objectivist groups about this, saying that the blog would update for those who can't make it
[22:27:53] Ina Centaur: so if you poof before i come back..
[22:27:58] Ina Centaur: g'nite in advance!
[22:28:24] Jamey Satyr: Yeah, I think I'm going to head back to my place. Goodnight.
[22:28:33] Ina Centaur: ttyl!
[22:28:36] Ina Centaur: see you tomorrow.
[11:52:19] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:31:53] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:33:13] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[14:04:06] Object: Touched. |
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