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SLChatr: Reverse Chronological Group Transcript for longhouse 2007-08-06:
[19:03:11] Ina Centaur: hi!
[19:03:15] Ina Centaur: i need to relog again.. brb
[19:03:19] Grace McDunnough: Hello :)
[19:03:20] Lauren Weyland: i'm going to be in a sec
[19:03:42] Lauren Weyland: hi grace...
[19:03:47] Grace McDunnough: Hey Lauren :)
[19:04:04] Lauren Weyland: i'm tired...so I couldn't get chapter 5 read
[19:04:15] Lauren Weyland: I just want to show for support
[19:04:38] Lauren Weyland: just tell Ina when she gets back that I cam
[19:04:49] Grace McDunnough: She's back now .. mostly :)
[19:04:58] Lauren Weyland: wow nakaima love what you are waring
[19:05:05] Lauren Weyland: oh..
[19:05:15] Nakaima Oh: thanks :)
[19:05:18] Lauren Weyland: Hey Ina...just saying good night
[19:05:34] Lauren Weyland: see you all maybe tmrw..not sure. Prob not..I have a date....
[19:06:03] Grace McDunnough: Good night Lauren - see you Tuesday then, eh?
[19:06:14] Ina Centaur: lol have fun lauren..
[19:07:42] Ina Centaur: hi nakaima, blundergroin, grace
[19:07:49] Grace McDunnough: Hello again
[19:07:56] Blundergroin Snoats: greetings ina
[19:07:59] Ina Centaur: (i'm still rezzing.. very bad packetloss on wireless atm..)
[19:08:11] Nakaima Oh: Hi. Having some trouble sitting down. :)
[19:08:25] Ina Centaur: ok the chairs are fixed btw ;-)
[19:08:42] Blundergroin Snoats: what was wrong before?
[19:08:53] Ina Centaur: camera angle
[19:10:14] Grace McDunnough: Hello Jordana
[19:10:28] Ina Centaur: hi jordana
[19:10:32] Jordana McMahon: hello everyone
[19:10:36] Grace McDunnough: Nakaima .. I cannot see you
[19:10:57] Ina Centaur: ... sunday night; i guess we'll begin chapter 5's discussion
[19:10:59] Blundergroin Snoats: hey! yeah! you can change the viewing angle! most "sit downs" constrain to 'parallel to floor' viewing
[19:11:00] Nakaima Oh: Funny suddenly I can't see myself elither
[19:11:21] Ina Centaur: chapter 5 is where you get a good first solid taste of Rand's "Theory off Sex/Love"
[19:11:37] Ina Centaur: so... lol, here's a general question -- what do y'all think of the chapter in general?
[19:11:57] Blundergroin Snoats: I bribed every other male in SL NOT to show up tonite
[19:12:35] Ina Centaur: ( lol >.< )
[19:13:16] Jordana McMahon: It moved pretty slow for me maybe because I was tired when I read it
[19:14:28] Jordana McMahon: I like to read Rands dialogues and even thought important things were pointed out nothing much happened except at the end
[19:14:44] Nakaima Oh: Getting the b ack story on D and F was good
[19:15:31] Ina Centaur: yes, in the end we find that Francisco seems to have become the "opposite" of whom he once was..
[19:15:49] Nakaima Oh: But for a mystereous reason.
[19:15:57] Ina Centaur: he appears to be destroying wealth... or so it seems... but then, what do you think he's actually doing?
[19:16:20] Jordana McMahon: yes he wasn't very convincing in his explanation of his actions
[19:16:30] Nakaima Oh: He's after the elder wand
[19:16:58] Jordana McMahon: the elder wand?
[19:17:03] Jordana McMahon: what is that
[19:17:22] Nakaima Oh: sorry --lame harry potter joke
[19:17:45] Ina Centaur: hehe
[19:17:51] Ina Centaur: in what way, nakaima? ;-P
[19:18:12] Nakaima Oh: I was joking but in way the two book function very much alike.
[19:18:41] Nakaima Oh: you have the superior people and the muggles
[19:18:52] Ina Centaur: hmm.. and?
[19:19:06] Ina Centaur: well, what about the everymen?
[19:19:11] Grace McDunnough: Sorry, I have to run .. I hope to return
[19:19:13] Grace McDunnough: Cheers
[19:19:23] Ina Centaur: tc grace!
[19:19:28] Jordana McMahon: ciao
[19:19:35] Nakaima Oh: Well, we'll need to get to the end to see if the human values of the wizards also happen with the industralists
[19:19:44] Nakaima Oh: bye
[19:20:09] Ina Centaur: lol. nakaima... it's definitely an interesting pov to see harry potter and atlas shrugged as similar.. rather than dissimilar
[19:20:20] Ina Centaur: i guess we will follow up on that discussion later on in the novel
[19:20:46] Ina Centaur: but anyway though, i think it might be interesting to discuss Rand's Theory of Sex
[19:20:48] Nakaima Oh: Yes, I think if you look at the ways the books are laid out you'll see some common points
[19:21:03] Ina Centaur: oh which points?
[19:21:30] Nakaima Oh: I have read both books I don't want to give rand away before we get there
[19:21:43] Ina Centaur: hehe ok.
[19:21:49] Blundergroin Snoats: Is this assertion accurate:
[19:21:52] Blundergroin Snoats: n Atlas Shrugged, characters are sexually attracted to those who embody their values. Characters who have "base" values are attracted to those that embody their "base" values. Characters who lack clear purpose find sex devoid of meaning. Characters with "higher" values respond sexually to those who embody them.
[19:22:07] Ina Centaur: well... what do you think of Eddie and Dagny's reaction to d'Anconia --- the way they'd do anything he commands?
[19:22:56] Jordana McMahon: well because he did everything better than they
[19:23:07] Jordana McMahon: he was there role model
[19:23:26] Nakaima Oh: I dont' mean to be snide but it's part of that superior people bit. Whatever we do must have greater meaning and purpose.
[19:23:44] Ina Centaur: blundergroin, i think i agree. but, we're currently only on chapter 5 ;-)
[19:24:02] Nakaima Oh: Yes, me, too. Blund
[19:24:04] Ina Centaur: oh nakaima, not necessarily greater meaning... but just purpose of some sort, i guess
[19:24:11] Blundergroin Snoats: i spoke to quickly .... sorry
[19:24:14] Blundergroin Snoats: :-)
[19:24:22] Nakaima Oh: No, no. she really is saying they have better sex
[19:24:56] Jordana McMahon: important people have better sex
[19:25:00] Ina Centaur: lol..
[19:25:12] Jordana McMahon: maybe they do
[19:25:14] Ina Centaur: i think, in generaly, she believes that those with purpose and motive will reach it
[19:25:23] Ina Centaur: it's kinda like the focus motif brought up a few days ago
[19:25:31] Ina Centaur: if you focus on pleasure, you'd get more of it ;-P
[19:25:34] Blundergroin Snoats: or more important sex at least if not 'better'
[19:25:48] Jordana McMahon: thats good
[19:25:51] Nakaima Oh: It helps to stand at the window and gaze out at a railroad
[19:26:45] Birric Forcella: Hello all
[19:26:50] Ina Centaur: (hi birric)
[19:26:55] Jordana McMahon: Ihello
[19:27:07] Blundergroin Snoats: Hello Birric
[19:27:39] Ina Centaur: lol, so it helps to gaze out at the emblem of TT, nakaima?
[19:28:01] Nakaima Oh: The locamotives, the tunnels, the steam!
[19:28:23] Ina Centaur: lol, but what do you think of the SM part of rand's theory of sex?
[19:28:38] Ina Centaur: ... how Dagny would do anything Francisco asks... and how she enjoyed it when he slapped her
[19:29:00] Jordana McMahon: I didn't fiind it that violent
[19:29:21] Jordana McMahon: I guess I was expecting something worse
[19:29:55] Ina Centaur: (hi nana)
[19:30:06] Jordana McMahon: He slapped her once because she made hime real angry I can't believe I ama dfending him
[19:30:17] Nakaima Oh: It occurs to me that since this is 1957, Rand may be patriarchal in the end. It's not who is Joan Galt.
[19:30:26] Ina Centaur: why do you think Frisco got angry, Nakaima?
[19:30:32] Ina Centaur: Jordana
[19:30:48] Ina Centaur: Joan Galt? o_O
[19:31:05] Jordana McMahon: lets see I forget what she said something defeatest
[19:31:06] Nakaima Oh: The ultimate mover is a aman
[19:31:09] Jordana McMahon: help me out
[19:32:10] Nakaima Oh: I'm thinking F is angry because he hates seeing her not qetting it quicker?
[19:32:52] Nakaima Oh: He know she is smart enough to be further down the road of tthe plot than she is.
[19:33:03] Ina Centaur: jordana, Frisco slapped Dagny after she mentioned how she might start getting D's so she'd be popular at school
[19:33:11] Jordana McMahon: oh yeah she asked if she should get D's to become popular
[19:33:18] Ina Centaur: (Dagny mentioned how she effortlessly excelled at everything, and people seemed to hate her for that)
[19:33:52] Jordana McMahon: that would really make someone like F mad
[19:33:56] Ina Centaur: why?
[19:34:19] Ina Centaur: (hi eshi)
[19:34:23] Nakaima Oh: A betrayal of her superior nature?
[19:34:26] Eshi Otawara: (hi ina)
[19:34:29] Jordana McMahon: because you should be true to yourself the best you can and not worry about what others think
[19:34:54] Ina Centaur: why should you be true to yourself and not care about other people's thoughts?
[19:35:28] Jordana McMahon: because the individual is most important
[19:35:32] Eshi Otawara: because in your head you have to live with your self and your own decisions , otherwise youare a stupid puppet that lets self be controlled by other people's agenda
[19:35:50] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:35:56] Jordana McMahon: that works too
[19:36:05] Eshi Otawara: did anyone get laid in the book yet?
[19:36:06] Eshi Otawara: :)
[19:36:10] Ina Centaur: how do you think it hurt Frisco?
[19:36:14] Jordana McMahon: yes
[19:36:35] Ina Centaur: oh yes, Eshi, chapter 5 is when Rand starts seriously hinting at her Theory of Sex ;-P
[19:36:46] Ina Centaur: if you haven't read it... you're missing out on a whole lotta action >D
[19:36:55] Eshi Otawara: sex is not theory, it is art.
[19:36:55] Eshi Otawara: hehe
[19:36:57] Eshi Otawara: ta ta
[19:37:00] Eshi Otawara: muah off to bed
[19:37:00] Eshi Otawara: :)
[19:37:10] Ina Centaur: (-.- ta Esh)
[19:38:04] Jordana McMahon: does it hurt him or make him angry that she is going against his philosophy
[19:38:36] Jordana McMahon: and what he feels her philosopy should be
[19:39:06] Birric Forcella: Sorry, I have to be off - being called - would like to stay
[19:39:13] Ina Centaur: hmm, i think it has to do with her goal though --- her goal in destroying her academic record = only to gain popularity... then it's the wrong kind of goal
[19:39:50] Jordana McMahon: yes but I am trying to look at it from his view
[19:40:12] Nakaima Oh: but why would he care if she were just some girl? It's because he sees her as one of the what ? uber people?
[19:40:36] Jordana McMahon: yes
[19:41:00] Ina Centaur: yes, he's mentioned that he considered her one of the remaining aristocracy
[19:41:35] Nakaima Oh: So he is angry because she is not acting aristocratic
[19:41:35] Jordana McMahon: hi tory
[19:41:45] ToryLynn Writer: hi
[19:41:46] Ina Centaur: (hi tory)
[19:41:58] Ina Centaur: hmm, i'd say he's angry because of her motive/goal
[19:42:12] Jordana McMahon: yeah it is beneath her
[19:42:34] Ina Centaur: Frisco is almost always described to be the guy who'd only act with a goal.. never any purposeless action. and, his goal is never usually petty... like gaining popularity in school
[19:42:48] Ina Centaur: and maybe... he's afraid he might lose her
[19:43:21] Nakaima Oh: Hey, hitting her was good strategy then. :)
[19:43:30] Ina Centaur: so, when Dagny asks if she really hurt him that badly... and he answers yes... what do you gals think of that?
[19:44:35] Jordana McMahon: I guess it rings true I'm not saying its ok for him to hit her but it was an slap lots of husbands have done worse
[19:45:17] Ina Centaur: hmm but Dagny actually enjoyed it
[19:45:27] Ina Centaur: it's slightly more than domestic abuse ;-)
[19:46:11] Jordana McMahon: it wasn't sexual enjoyment I didn't think she was impressed with her power
[19:46:12] Nakaima Oh: It a harder attitude to sell these days, I think.
[19:47:07] ToryLynn Writer: I think Frisco represents a male that Dagny thinks can control her, but also who will give her the freedom she needs to run TT..
[19:47:20] Jordana McMahon: I mean it something you could pick up on as abuse but it seemed diferent
[19:47:50] Nakaima Oh: The attitude I mean is the idea that she needs a man to giver her the freedom to run.
[19:48:09] ToryLynn Writer: well.. this was the 50s.. before bra burning...
[19:48:18] Ina Centaur: (lol... >.< )
[19:48:20] ToryLynn Writer: it was thought, in society, that a woman needed a man to control her
[19:48:27] Nakaima Oh: Yes, in a way, D is the pre-strong woman.
[19:48:41] Jordana McMahon: and you might not have said control but rather guide
[19:49:18] Jordana McMahon: give direction but of course Dagny didn't need that except in this one case
[19:49:24] Ina Centaur: hmm, so you think Dagny's enjoyment of the slap had to do with male control and leniancy? o_O
[19:50:05] Nakaima Oh: I think it's Rand theory -- the male lion's bit on the nose.
[19:50:12] ToryLynn Writer: thinking pre-bra burning.. she might like the idea that she has someone who can control her.. someone she can fall back on to be there.. to be the strength she can draw from when she feels she has none left
[19:50:21] Nakaima Oh: bite on the nose I mean. :)
[19:50:43] Jordana McMahon: I think the lion analogy is good
[19:51:01] ToryLynn Writer: I will confess I haven't finished this chapte yet
[19:51:17] Jordana McMahon: the end of it is confusing
[19:51:25] Jordana McMahon: and very importatnt
[19:51:45] Ina Centaur: yes, the end is a major clue to the mystery
[19:52:13] Ina Centaur: hmm... so tory, you think all that was conveyed with Frisco's slap?
[19:52:18] ToryLynn Writer: I did like the bit about Frisco not acknowledging Jim as a Taggart
[19:52:52] ToryLynn Writer: perhaps.. I'm just giving a reason for why she might have enjoyed it
[19:52:52] ToryLynn Writer: :)
[19:53:28] ToryLynn Writer: As a woman in a position of a control, who finds she enjoys submission once in a while
[19:54:01] Ina Centaur: interesting...
[19:54:23] Ina Centaur: i tink that might be true overall.
[19:54:26] Ina Centaur: *think
[19:54:59] ToryLynn Writer: I have a very wierd point of view in my own life so.. yeah :)
[19:55:12] Ina Centaur: but for the slap... it's probably as simple as Frisco's alarm that Dagny would think such a "depraved thought" (of losing her ability for popularity's sake)... and Dagny's triumph in knowing that Frisco cared about her that much
[19:55:39] Jordana McMahon: yes I agree
[19:55:40] ToryLynn Writer: true
[19:55:46] Ina Centaur: lol what do you think of the tennis game?
[19:55:55] Ina Centaur: ... where Dagny nearly breaks her body trying to beat Frisco...
[19:56:06] Ina Centaur: and Frisco loses only when he breaks down laughing
[19:56:21] Jordana McMahon: yes you have beaten me and now you are worthy to have sex with me
[19:56:28] Jordana McMahon: or did he let her win
[19:56:38] Jordana McMahon: would he let her win
[19:56:55] ToryLynn Writer: he wouldn't let her win
[19:56:55] Ina Centaur: lol that's an interesting way of putting it!
[19:57:14] Ina Centaur: oh, but Dagny won... Frisco fell laughing ;-P]
[19:57:14] ToryLynn Writer: their lives have been competition..
[19:57:38] Jordana McMahon: thats true
[19:58:19] Jordana McMahon: I am surprised she could beat him in a physical contest when she could never beat him to the tree
[19:58:42] Jordana McMahon: but there is strategy in tennis
[19:59:31] Ina Centaur: hmmm she wins only because he lets her
[19:59:34] ToryLynn Writer: also there is a different physicality between tennis and running
[19:59:39] Ina Centaur: he falls laughing, thus loses
[20:00:39] ToryLynn Writer: so, is Frisco supposed to be a character we like, someone we are to expect greatness from?
[20:00:49] ToryLynn Writer: or is he the bum Jim makes him out to be?
[20:01:05] Jordana McMahon: Its not clear to me yet
[20:01:22] Nakaima Oh: I think we're supposed to admire him. Look at the description of him with his black hair and blue eyes.
[20:01:29] Jordana McMahon: if he is a bum it is not for the reasons Jims says
[20:01:50] Jordana McMahon: something is going on we don't know
[20:01:58] ToryLynn Writer: well.. as I come to understand it.. the whole flashback/history of Francisco is told from Dagny's perspective..
[20:01:59] Ina Centaur: yes, jordana :-)
[20:02:17] Ina Centaur: yes, Dagny used to really admire him
[20:02:23] ToryLynn Writer: Dagny who.. sees him as some sort of glowing ember ready to burst into flames at any time
[20:02:29] Jordana McMahon: he told Dagny don't be astonished by anthing I do or by anything I may ever do in the future
[20:03:33] Ina Centaur: yes. and he's kinda a rotten bastard for telling her just that for suddenly appearing to mood-swing his personality ;-P
[20:03:45] Nakaima Oh: We're supposed to think he planned the mexican mine stuff way back then.
[20:03:55] Ina Centaur: yup.
[20:03:58] Jordana McMahon: I think
[20:04:02] Ina Centaur: it's not an accident the mines were empty and worthless
[20:04:15] ToryLynn Writer: I think he did.. I think he went up there, made a big deal about it.. and wasted his money to make Jim look bad...
[20:04:19] ToryLynn Writer: he never liked Jim
[20:04:32] ToryLynn Writer: or at least.. that's my very suspicious point of view :-D
[20:04:34] Ina Centaur: oh, but it's a whole bunch of others, too.
[20:04:34] Nakaima Oh: The boys were already up to stuff behind the scene.
[20:04:44] Ina Centaur: but, do you think he's against Dagny, now, too?
[20:05:02] Jordana McMahon: no I don't think so
[20:05:02] Ina Centaur: notice that he mentioned he's aware it'd cost TT 40million in losses... something it'd never recover from
[20:05:12] Ina Centaur: and he knows that that's also Dagny he's hurting
[20:05:19] ToryLynn Writer: I don't know.. I think if it is to make TT look bad..
[20:05:22] Jordana McMahon: true
[20:05:29] ToryLynn Writer: he did it mostly out of spite
[20:05:50] Ina Centaur: why spite?
[20:06:51] ToryLynn Writer: I haven't gotten to the end.. but.. Jim always treated him as if he was second class...
[20:07:15] Jordana McMahon: he wants to ruin Jim and his cronies because he knew they would jump right in and not study the situation
[20:07:16] ToryLynn Writer: Also, it says that "he could always name the purpose of his every random moment"
[20:07:25] Jordana McMahon: what his plans for Dagny are I don't know
[20:07:32] ToryLynn Writer: he does nothing without some reason
[20:08:17] ToryLynn Writer: I honesty wouldnt' be surprised if he had talked the Mexican government into the nationalization
[20:08:36] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:08:44] Ina Centaur: >.<
[20:08:50] Ina Centaur: but, realize that Frisco is also losing
[20:08:52] Jordana McMahon: so could he possibly be a good guy
[20:09:07] Ina Centaur: and, money isn't just a trivial thing to the d'Anconia's
[20:09:11] ToryLynn Writer: I don't think he cares if he loses.. he's not losing everything
[20:09:20] Ina Centaur: every heir is expected to not merely maintain his inheritance, but double it or more
[20:09:28] ToryLynn Writer: and even in loss. there is winning.. as his "loss" to Dagny proved
[20:09:39] Nakaima Oh: And we have a hint of larger purpose.
[20:10:25] Ina Centaur: yes.. Frisco isn't so petty that the SS would be an ends in itself... what do you think the larger purpose could be?
[20:11:28] ToryLynn Writer: it's just me.. but.. maybe..... finding a way to put Dagny in charge of TT.... if the board votes no confidence in Jim due to the SS thing...
[20:11:41] ToryLynn Writer: Dagny is a woman he might have a little control over
[20:11:47] Jordana McMahon: and the building of inferior housing that didn't really effect anyone else but himself did it
[20:11:57] Ina Centaur: oh, so you think he wants to use Dagny as a pawn to control TT?
[20:11:59] ToryLynn Writer: (of course.. this is what I would do if I wrote the book)
[20:12:00] Ina Centaur: hmm.. interesting!
[20:12:27] Jordana McMahon: yikes the jerk
[20:12:43] ToryLynn Writer: Yeah, I do.. he can have it all... and if he can control TT.. and Dagny... maybe get her to marry him (eventually) combining his family fortune and hers.. there is his doubling
[20:13:14] ToryLynn Writer: of couse.. I'm also the romantic who thinks past discretions in relationships can be smoothed out in a few hundred pages :)_
[20:13:21] Ina Centaur: lol... but, Dagny and he are really no longer a couple.
[20:13:30] ToryLynn Writer: (see above)
[20:13:56] Ina Centaur: mmm i don't think they could ever get back together. Dagny would never approve of someone who worked to destroy wealth (at least from her current POV of him)
[20:14:07] Ina Centaur: even if he said that he's trying to help her... she would have spurned him
[20:14:38] Ina Centaur: and, Frisco would know her better than that... than to help machinate things like that for her
[20:14:49] ToryLynn Writer: and thus the chase.. the ensuing romantic liason.. them thrown together in passion.. love.. and marriage.. and.. I'm getting away from myself thinking this is a romance not a social/philosophical commentary
[20:15:10] Nakaima Oh: But even this early we can see Rand thinks well of F. Contrast him with Jim, for example.
[20:15:26] ToryLynn Writer: I love Jim's jealosy of him..
[20:15:29] Ina Centaur: oh tory, Atlas Shrugged is actually an epic romance ;-P
[20:15:44] Ina Centaur: but, i will give you a big hint: Dagny's romance with Frisco is over.
[20:15:54] Ina Centaur: and... i think chapter 5 explains a bit of why...
[20:15:58] Nakaima Oh: But the lion doesn't kill tho old cubs in the end. Whoops spoiler.
[20:16:15] ToryLynn Writer: /me sighs
[20:16:18] ToryLynn Writer: so much for my theories :)
[20:16:25] Ina Centaur: hehe, well, here's a slight detour...
[20:16:43] Ina Centaur: do you remember the part where Frisco signs onto work at TT as a kid... using the nom de guerre of...
[20:16:44] Ina Centaur: Frank?
[20:16:57] ToryLynn Writer: Frankie.. yeah
[20:17:01] Ina Centaur: (Rand's husband...)
[20:17:04] ToryLynn Writer: awwww
[20:17:12] Ina Centaur: (whom... she later convinced to let her pursue a relationship with a younger man..)
[20:17:13] Nakaima Oh: Cool. I didn't know that
[20:17:26] Jordana McMahon: hmmmm
[20:17:31] ToryLynn Writer: wow.. I wish I could get my hubby to trust me like that
[20:18:06] ToryLynn Writer: but then..I've been running around with older guys lately :)
[20:18:31] ToryLynn Writer: but not romantically
[20:18:51] Jordana McMahon: oops
[20:18:52] ToryLynn Writer: crash,.. again
[20:18:54] ToryLynn Writer: hehehe
[20:18:58] ToryLynn Writer: I killed Ina!
[20:19:01] Nakaima Oh: That made ina disappear. :)
[20:19:05] ToryLynn Writer: hehehe
[20:19:28] ToryLynn Writer: so, have we discussed the aristocracy comment yet'?
[20:19:45] ToryLynn Writer: (going over my notes and trying to read at the same time.. I'm 30 pages back.. )
[20:19:51] Nakaima Oh: We did kick that around a little. You have thoughts?
[20:20:16] ToryLynn Writer: not really... just that this monetary aristocracy is so prevalent in our own society
[20:20:29] Ina Centaur: / gak.. i think it was inventory transfer that crashed me..
[20:21:06] Ina Centaur: / ok... well... btw on Frank/Rand... Frank did not actually like Rand's affair
[20:21:19] Ina Centaur: / and Rand probably ruined her public image with it... kinda sad.
[20:21:28] ToryLynn Writer: he just acceted it as something he couldn't control?
[20:21:51] Nakaima Oh: Was there rumours of frank lyod wright, too.?
[20:21:51] Ina Centaur: / hehe ok, so... noting the hint that Frisco Dagny = totally over in the love dept... we'd move onto aristocracy
[20:22:03] ToryLynn Writer: heheh
[20:22:04] ToryLynn Writer: yeah
[20:22:07] Ina Centaur: oh not FLW.. but Frank O'Conner, i think...
[20:22:14] Ina Centaur: FLW = Roark in Rand's Fountainhead
[20:22:34] Nakaima Oh: I thought she apporached wright before the fountainhead. Maybe just gossip.
[20:22:42] Ina Centaur: so... aristocracy... i think it has more to do with just money though
[20:22:52] ToryLynn Writer: ok.. I REALLY need to look up Rand on wikipedia :)
[20:22:59] Ina Centaur: notice how Frisco proudly put on the d'Anconia emblem on a run down mine that he took over in college
[20:23:12] Nakaima Oh: Yes,, once again the supior people vrs the muggles
[20:23:27] Ina Centaur: oh... Wikipedia is probably the worse source on Rand.. last year i had to put a ban on the article since n00bs would log in and try to wipe out the whole thing with their own POV >.<
[20:23:45] Ina Centaur: there's a lot of people who hate Rand; and a lot who love her; and a lot for misunderstand her
[20:24:00] Jordana McMahon: what does F comment that there is something wrong with the world theres always been something wrong something no one has ever named or expleained mean
[20:24:02] Nakaima Oh: Is there an officieal site?
[20:24:04] Ina Centaur: ... Rand is almost as hot as Kerry was back in 04
[20:24:06] ToryLynn Writer: I don't trust the Rand Institute to be unbiased though
[20:24:41] Ina Centaur: yes ARI is probably biased. so... try the other side... see it from Nathaniel Branden's POV
[20:25:24] Ina Centaur: and then after you get a taste of all the anti-Rand stuff... well, hopefully you can read her work irrespective of her messed up personal life. it's just a good book... and like many authors, she doesn't have the greatest public-image life
[20:26:01] Ina Centaur: oh yes Nakaima, i think Rand wanted Wright to build her house, but somehow that never happened
[20:26:04] ToryLynn Writer: hehe.. I am one of those authors with the messed up personal life..so I think I can ignore it
[20:26:40] Ina Centaur: Jordana, keep F's comment on something wrong with the world in mind
[20:26:48] Ina Centaur: that's a big hint to F's action
[20:26:57] Jordana McMahon: ok
[20:27:02] Ina Centaur: the why of it, especially ;-)
[20:27:24] ToryLynn Writer: ok.. i have a half an hour until bed.. I'm going to go and read some... it's a school night
[20:27:30] ToryLynn Writer: have a nice evening ladies
[20:27:38] Ina Centaur: nite tory!
[20:27:39] Jordana McMahon: I would like to end early too
[20:27:45] Nakaima Oh: bye nice hearing you
[20:27:52] Jordana McMahon: sorry am very tired but good discussion
[20:27:57] Nakaima Oh: Me, too, really.
[20:28:11] Ina Centaur: nite jordana..
[20:28:22] Jordana McMahon: nite you two till tomorrow
[20:28:35] Ina Centaur: lol you too nakaima?
[20:28:41] Ina Centaur: well nite then ;-)
[20:29:16] Nakaima Oh: Yeah, I would have been the first if everyone had held off five more minutes. I'm enjoying these, Ina and will try to make more of them.:)
[20:29:34] Ina Centaur: hehe np.
[20:29:38] Ina Centaur: thanks... nite i guess!
[20:29:40] Nakaima Oh: See you.
[20:50:39] Jack Sondergaard: hello
[20:51:05] Jack Sondergaard: small group tonight
[20:54:31] Ina Centaur: hi jack
[20:54:40] Jack Sondergaard: hello
[20:54:52] Ina Centaur: yup. i think the prospect of discussing Rand's Theory of Sex scared everyone off ;-)
[20:54:53] Jack Sondergaard: was anyone else here earlier?
[20:55:09] Ina Centaur: yup, you can catch up on the discussion here http://slchatr.com/group/sliterary/longhouse
[20:55:23] Jack Sondergaard: that should have drawn a standing room only crowd in SL
[20:55:28] Ina Centaur: ... and interestingly, someone felt the discussion was too private and i'm trying to get him to TP here instead of IMing it -.-
[20:55:43] Ina Centaur: haha Rand's Theory of Sex?
[20:55:50] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[20:56:18] Ina Centaur: oh i just announced Ayn Rand's Atlas SHrugged Discussion, as usual on event notices... figured those who read the chapter would have found this topic interesting to bring up in context
[20:56:24] Ina Centaur: btw, are you caught up with Chapter 5?
[20:56:58] Jack Sondergaard: no, I still need to go to the library tomorrow and get the book
[20:57:20] Jack Sondergaard: or audiobook if they have it at the nearby library
[21:00:51] Ina Centaur: hmm
[21:01:24] Ina Centaur: well i hope you catch up the 6 chapters tomorrow :-)
[21:01:54] Jack Sondergaard: I'll try
[21:09:39] Jack Sondergaard: I watched a video last night by Leonard Peikoff, to refresh my memory
[21:10:21] Ina Centaur: oh, how was it? and which one?
[21:15:07] Giselle Rhode: hi all
[21:15:14] Giselle Rhode: has the discussion ended?
[21:15:18] Ina Centaur: hi giselle
[21:15:47] Giselle Rhode: no discussion?
[21:16:20] Ina Centaur: i guess we could continue. the girls had to leave earlier because it's a school night :-|
[21:16:28] Ina Centaur: so, are you caught up to chapter 5?
[21:17:13] Giselle Rhode: actually not. i got the book a couple of years ago, have recommended it to friends, but have yet to read it
[21:17:30] Giselle Rhode: i'm still stuck with fountainhead. lol
[21:17:37] Jack Sondergaard: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_intro_audiovideo
[21:18:32] Ina Centaur: hehe
[21:18:54] Giselle Rhode: any discussion notes of previous chapters?
[21:19:59] Ina Centaur: yup.. somewhat
[21:20:05] Ina Centaur: http://atlasshrugged.inacentaur.com
[21:20:10] Ina Centaur: the chat logs are also linked
[21:20:30] Giselle Rhode: cool. thanks. will go check it out.
[21:20:52] Giselle Rhode: ok. enjoy fidgeting. will catch up with reading before coming here again. :-)
[21:20:53] Giselle Rhode: bye
[21:22:28] Jack Sondergaard: I'm watching part 2 of Peikoff now
[21:25:02] Jack Sondergaard: studying Ayn Rand reminds me that people who are parasites, not working and expecting others to support them are theives
[21:25:37] Jack Sondergaard: I know plenty of people like that
[21:25:40] Ina Centaur: well, that's one bit... but it's not always so clear cut, and there's a lot more
[21:26:27] Ina Centaur: i mean, there are cases... like non-working children who would need support from parents... and they're not thieves even though they're not working ;-)
[21:26:59] Ina Centaur: Rand would say that if they appreciate it, then they're good
[21:27:18] Jack Sondergaard: I mean only people who can and should be working, but are too lazy
[21:27:24] Ina Centaur: as opposed to... children who just recklessly waste money
[21:28:00] Ina Centaur: well, there are exceptions again
[21:28:16] Ina Centaur: so.. homemakers who are competent, but not earning money or whatever, are not thieves
[21:28:22] Jack Sondergaard: I'm glad my parents always made me work for money
[21:28:32] Jack Sondergaard: homemakers work
[21:28:40] Jack Sondergaard: they work hard
[21:28:53] Ina Centaur: yup, but the idea is that the exchange rate is not always money... because money is now messed up with inflation and other terms
[21:29:02] Ina Centaur: yup
[21:30:39] Jack Sondergaard: I used to work for the government, I never saw so many lazy people in my life, including the supervisors, and wasting money was practically considered a virtue
[21:31:17] Ina Centaur: oh yes, rand was totally against governmental funds. i'm not sure if i understand why though..
[21:31:38] Ina Centaur: like, in Atlas Shrugged, Nat Taggart was described to have thrown down 3 flights of stairs when a government agent came and offered him funding
[21:32:17] Ina Centaur: i mean.. i would assume that waste is kinda like entropy... the bigger the organization, the more of it is seen, but it's still the same percentage relative to size, i guess
[21:33:32] Jack Sondergaard: in the video I watched last night, Peikoff explained that Rand believed government should only do what can't be done by businesses or individuals
[21:34:29] Jack Sondergaard: she very much believed in hands off capitalism
[21:34:58] Ina Centaur: hmm but why is the gov bad?
[21:35:11] Ina Centaur: or.. why would one see the need for rejecting funds from them?
[21:35:42] Jack Sondergaard: not bad as long as it is restricted to only doing certain things
[21:37:11] Ina Centaur: why restrict them?
[21:38:09] Jack Sondergaard: what was the government agent offering him funding for?
[21:39:58] Ina Centaur: i would assume it was the railroad he was trying to build
[21:41:07] Jack Sondergaard: railroads could be considered infrastructure, so it's debatable who should pay for the rails
[21:41:37] Jack Sondergaard: the trains should be paid for by business of course
[21:42:25] Ina Centaur: yes
[21:42:28] Ina Centaur: i think i understand
[21:42:39] Ina Centaur: the government would offer him the money, have him do the work, and then claim it
[21:42:40] Jack Sondergaard: and the companies who use the rails taxed to pay for them
[21:43:19] Ina Centaur: hmm so you mentioned you never encountered waste as much as in the gov agency you worked for
[21:43:21] Ina Centaur: what do you mean?
[21:43:48] Jack Sondergaard: but since the rails are a shared resource, paying for them will probably be done by the government
[21:44:51] Jack Sondergaard: I worked in a small department, about 50 people, but there were 8 levels of management there
[21:45:03] Ina Centaur: wow..
[21:45:08] Ina Centaur: example of titles? o_O
[21:45:43] Jack Sondergaard: and perfectly good tools were thrown away every year because new tools were in the budget
[21:46:32] Jack Sondergaard: crew chief, supervisor, and I don't remember the higher up titles
[21:46:36] Cyperia Heron: Looking good!
[21:46:44] Cyperia Heron: Over here!
[21:47:50] Ina Centaur: hmm
[21:48:03] Ina Centaur: yes, same with universities
[21:48:19] Jack Sondergaard: it was at a university
[21:48:20] Ina Centaur: don't understand why they don't try to salvage stuff that's still useable...
[21:48:35] Ina Centaur: oh ok..
[21:48:57] Ina Centaur: but 8 levels of management in 50 people?
[21:49:06] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[21:49:20] Jack Sondergaard: it was hard to believe, but true
[21:51:04] Ina Centaur: hmm which dept ?
[21:51:17] Jack Sondergaard: grounds maint.
[21:51:23] Ina Centaur: i'm trying to imagine how it would work out... or what would compensate
[21:52:21] Jack Sondergaard: and everyone was forbidden to talk about work to anyone above your immediate supervisor
[21:53:02] Ina Centaur: ?
[21:53:23] Ina Centaur: how could that have worked out?
[21:53:32] Ina Centaur: (hi genji)
[21:54:33] Jack Sondergaard: it didn't work well at all
[21:55:48] Ina Centaur: hmm
[21:56:06] Ina Centaur: did they reform?
[21:56:42] Jack Sondergaard: I quit after a couple of years of it because I couldn't stand being involved in such a wasteful system
[21:57:01] Jack Sondergaard: I don't know if they reformed, not while I was there
[21:58:10] Jack Sondergaard: I tried doing what I could by always working even when others were hiding out
[21:58:20] Ina Centaur: hiding?ok.
[22:00:11] Jack Sondergaard: I thought maybe I could do something if I got promoted to supervisor, but I got passed over for that and quit soon after
[22:02:02] Jack Sondergaard: well I think I will do my wash and get some studying done
[22:03:32] [SLDonate] DarkGlass Tip Bin: Thank you for your donation, Jack Sondergaard! |
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