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SLChatr: Reverse Chronological Group Transcript for longhouse 2007-08-07:
[18:58:16] Melch Savon: /ao off
[18:58:23] Jordana McMahon: they are usually here early
[18:58:28] Melch Savon: My first visit
[18:58:41] Jordana McMahon: it has been very interesting
[18:58:55] Melch Savon: I was amazed to find it in events. I loved Ayn Rand
[18:59:08] Melch Savon: You know Greenspan was once an acolyte?
[18:59:16] Jordana McMahon: have you read Atlas Shrugged
[18:59:21] Melch Savon: 2 or 3 times
[18:59:27] Melch Savon: not recently however
[18:59:30] Melch Savon: I may just listen
[18:59:37] Jordana McMahon: I read that and they placed a wreath in the shape of a dollar sign at her funeral
[19:00:05] Melch Savon: That's just too appropriate, though really, I think it misses the main thrust of her philosophy of self-reliance
[19:00:27] Melch Savon: Then again, I can't think of a better solution ...
[19:00:50] Jordana McMahon: we are discussing chapter six tonight
[19:01:05] Jordana McMahon: we have been doing a chapter a day
[19:01:12] Melch Savon: ooh -- never heard of SLChatr before. That is just great
[19:02:01] Jordana McMahon: hi and welcome
[19:02:22] Jordana McMahon: Ina is usually here fifteen ro morer minutes early
[19:02:52] Jack Sondergaard: hello
[19:03:00] Melch Savon: Hello Jack, great to see you!
[19:03:22] Jack Sondergaard: I just checked the book out of the library today
[19:03:47] Jordana McMahon: good we are discussing chapterl six tonight
[19:03:59] Jordana McMahon: it shouldn't be too hard to catch up
[19:05:29] Jordana McMahon: I bought the plume edition of the book last week and noticed today at the book store they have the centennial edition just out]
[19:05:48] Jordana McMahon: also read they are making Atlas Shrugged into a movie
[19:06:04] Ina Centaur: hi guys :-)
[19:06:13] Melch Savon: Hi Ina
[19:06:17] Jordana McMahon: In I was worried you are always early
[19:06:39] Ina Centaur: yes, i'm trying to relog so that my shape would show... but i give up now..
[19:06:53] Jack Sondergaard: I can see you
[19:07:13] Ina Centaur: yup... but probably not in the right form >.<
[19:07:21] Ina Centaur: (my inventory is still broken :-( )
[19:07:30] Jordana McMahon: purple sweater and black skirt
[19:07:40] Ina Centaur: (hi xantha, come into the Log Cabin!... we're upstairs!)
[19:07:45] Jack Sondergaard: you don't look like a body snatcher to me
[19:08:00] Ina Centaur: (lol... not supposed to be purple >.< )
[19:08:06] Ina Centaur: (anyway i am completely gray to myself >.< )
[19:08:29] Jordana McMahon: well lavendar to be more exact
[19:08:43] Object: Touched.
[19:09:00] Ina Centaur: hehe :-)
[19:09:15] Ina Centaur: so... chapter 6.. The Non-Commercial
[19:09:43] Ina Centaur: the chain reoccurs... as well as an interesting party, where we get to see another side of Francisco... and meet several of the society's so-called "intellectuals"
[19:10:08] Ina Centaur: (hi isabella, harman)
[19:10:38] Ina Centaur: (we are discussing chapter 6 of Atlas Shrugged for 8/6... basically, the readathon for the month goes like this: a chapater a day for each day of august
[19:11:11] Ina Centaur: well, so a lot goes on... but what's most striking about chapter 6 to you guys?
[19:11:30] Isabella Lubitsch: Ahhh---well--since I am not up to date...
[19:11:44] Jordana McMahon: well the portralyal of the guest at the party was a hoot
[19:12:16] Ina Centaur: yes!
[19:12:34] Jordana McMahon: this was definately an instance of Rand exagerating because nobody could be that stupid
[19:13:06] Ina Centaur: lol...
[19:13:41] Jordana McMahon: the application of equalization of opportunity to literature and philosophy
[19:14:16] Jordana McMahon: was pretty funny and saying there should only be 10,000 copies of any book printed
[19:14:36] Ina Centaur: lol... but you have these authors who sell just a couple books who are pissed at others who sell millions
[19:14:52] Ina Centaur: and, it's a majority, i guess, who don't sell that well
[19:15:15] Jordana McMahon: I can see why the author at the party didn't sell many
[19:15:44] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:16:00] Ina Centaur: yes, what do you think about their ideas?
[19:16:07] Melch Savon: /me is back -- sorry, but appropriately was updating the financials in a business plan for an investor
[19:17:16] Object: Touched.
[19:17:21] Ina Centaur: (wb melch..)
[19:17:24] Jordana McMahon: one professor said that the secret of life is everything is nothing
[19:17:51] Ina Centaur: (hi sparkles)
[19:18:00] Ina Centaur: (hi blunderg)
[19:18:15] Jordana McMahon: and someone else said everything is everything
[19:18:17] sparkles Sieyes: ao off
[19:18:23] Ina Centaur: lol..
[19:18:57] Ina Centaur: yes, the Rand seems to basically "petti-fy" the various "intellectuals" present there
[19:19:04] sparkles Sieyes: hwllo
[19:19:14] Melch Savon: /me waves to Sparkles
[19:19:21] sparkles Sieyes: hello
[19:19:25] Ina Centaur: but the interesting thing is... if their ideas were expressed differently, they can actually be quite convincing
[19:19:51] Ina Centaur: it's kinda like Rand's personal satirism of modern philosophy... all that followed after Descartes' silly assertion...
[19:20:08] Ina Centaur: "i think; therefore i am?" .... to her, that's a reversal of causality.
[19:20:10] Melch Savon: I did not read the chapter, having only today learned of this group, but Rand pretty much had a strong regard for those who do and little for those who talk about doing, right? That would be right in line
[19:20:31] Jack Sondergaard: I just checked the book out today, so I'm reading chapter 6 now
[19:20:40] sparkles Sieyes: does anyone use voice chat yet
[19:21:08] Harman Mayo: most of the discussion is in text
[19:21:20] sparkles Sieyes: okay,
[19:21:20] Ina Centaur: yes, melch... to an extent. if the person who's doing the talking ("commanding") knows exactly what should be done, and tells the right people how to do things... then i think she has a strong regard for that as well ;-)
[19:21:24] Jack Sondergaard: I have it, but haven't used it much, it didn't work well chen I tried
[19:21:47] Melch Savon: Exactly. Maybe its better to say "those who contribute to productivity" and "those who don't"
[19:21:52] sparkles Sieyes: maybe when everyone learns to use it
[19:22:25] sparkles Sieyes: if you need some help i might be able to help
[19:22:40] Ina Centaur: (actually sparkles... the voice server seems to be kinda laggy.)
[19:22:59] Ina Centaur: yes, Melch, Rand holds productivity as a virtue :-)
[19:23:10] sparkles Sieyes: when the get bugs ou
[19:23:13] sparkles Sieyes: out
[19:23:38] Ina Centaur: well... what do you think of the return of Rearden's chain?
[19:25:02] Jordana McMahon: I wasn't sure what statement his wife was trying to make whatever it was it sure made Reardon mad
[19:25:21] Jordana McMahon: then when she made fun of it that was really nasty
[19:25:28] Ina Centaur: well, recall the first scene the chain reoccurs in
[19:25:33] Ina Centaur: yes
[19:26:01] Jordana McMahon: yes she is wearing lots of expensive jewelry and the chain
[19:26:21] Harman Mayo: sure - and reardon wants to rip the chain from her arm
[19:26:28] Harman Mayo: i found that curious
[19:26:39] Jordana McMahon: I guess that was meant to contrast the plain chain and the better jewelry
[19:26:47] Harman Mayo: he was so excited to give it to her
[19:26:55] Ina Centaur: it sort of implies that that they have totally different sense of values
[19:27:25] Ina Centaur: yes, but the plain chain ... is, from another POV, at least, worth *much* more than the jewwelry
[19:27:28] Ina Centaur: what do you think of dagny's trade?
[19:28:06] Jordana McMahon: the minute before it read just before I turned the page I was saying to myself Dagny make a trade
[19:28:12] Jordana McMahon: and she did
[19:28:19] Jordana McMahon: I was pleased
[19:28:58] Jordana McMahon: but Reardeon again was not happy
[19:29:14] Jordana McMahon: he was a sour puss in this chapter
[19:30:24] Ina Centaur: lol..
[19:30:29] Ina Centaur: yes, what did he do immediately after the trade?
[19:30:50] Jordana McMahon: not sure
[19:31:01] Ina Centaur: he sorta walked up to his wife
[19:31:10] Ina Centaur: reaffirming her
[19:31:19] Ina Centaur: and... kinda ignores dagny the rest of the evening
[19:31:29] Jordana McMahon: thats right then he did what she wanted the rest of the night
[19:31:36] Ina Centaur: lol anyone care to do a Freudian analysis? ;-P
[19:31:55] Ina Centaur: yes, he *forced* himself to be lillian's "ideal" husband
[19:31:58] Ina Centaur: why?
[19:32:21] Jordana McMahon: to not show his true feelings?
[19:32:37] Ina Centaur: bingo ;-P
[19:32:50] Ina Centaur: but why would he want to hide them though?
[19:33:26] Jordana McMahon: because he doesn't feel they are appropriate becausse she is his WIFE
[19:33:47] Ina Centaur: yes, but let's go back to chapter 2 again, when the chain first occurs...
[19:33:57] Ina Centaur: remember how he was walking home from the first heat of Rearden Metal
[19:34:02] Ina Centaur: he had this chain in his pockets
[19:34:07] Ina Centaur: and... he thought of giving it to his wife
[19:34:17] Ina Centaur: but, he didn't see himself giving it to Lillian...
[19:34:25] Ina Centaur: but rather to an abstract " idea" of a wife...
[19:34:30] Ina Centaur: now, what do you think of that?
[19:35:06] Ina Centaur: (hi elwood)
[19:35:35] Ina Centaur: (c'mon to the west side of the island to see the log cabin. we're on the second floor)
[19:37:08] Jordana McMahon: he has ideal of wife but doesn't really think of her as this person Lilian
[19:37:32] Ina Centaur: yes...
[19:37:49] Ina Centaur: do you think he sees the potential in Dagny to take that place?
[19:38:06] Jordana McMahon: boy if he is thinking that it sure is buried
[19:38:19] Jordana McMahon: but that does make sense concidering how he is acting
[19:38:27] Ina Centaur: hehe. Rearden has a bit of oppressed emo in him ;-P
[19:38:36] Ina Centaur: suppressed, even..
[19:39:03] Jack Sondergaard: that happens to many men, they have a mental image of the perfect wife, and their real wife deviates from that image
[19:39:08] Elwood Abernathy: bb
[19:39:27] Harman Mayo: it's obvious that reardon has the hots for dagny
[19:39:40] Ina Centaur: lol obvious?
[19:40:07] Harman Mayo: she's the only "competent" woman there - by his standards
[19:40:31] Ina Centaur: so.. why would competent lead to "hots"? ;-P
[19:40:49] Harman Mayo: look at his motives
[19:41:19] Harman Mayo: he cares nothing for culture or society
[19:41:26] Jack Sondergaard: because he was a practical man
[19:41:33] Harman Mayo: he's all about action - and accomplishment
[19:41:40] Ina Centaur: yes, he's a workaholic... perhaps "in love with his metal (sic)"
[19:41:44] Harman Mayo: so is dagny
[19:41:57] Ina Centaur: but, he's holding himself back though...
[19:42:09] Ina Centaur: and then he forces himself to pretend to like culture/society for the rest of the evening
[19:43:37] Ina Centaur: hmmm so why would he hold back if...
[19:43:46] Ina Centaur: he values industry/productivity/competence above all else?
[19:43:52] Harman Mayo: that's almost a stereotypical image
[19:44:03] Harman Mayo: man repressng his innermost desires
[19:44:32] Melch Savon: It seems straightforward. With Dagny she is excited by everything he does because its what she is interested with. But social conditioning dictates he act otherwise to be "accepted" by those society say is important. He is torn between his desires and what he things is right.
[19:45:34] Harman Mayo: i honastly found that to be an error on Rand's part
[19:45:50] Harman Mayo: Reardon acted out of caracter here
[19:46:44] Harman Mayo: but then again - those who can't teach, criticize
[19:46:52] Harman Mayo: so i may be off base
[19:47:13] Ina Centaur: hmm melch is onto something ;-)
[19:47:34] Ina Centaur: why is social conditioning a stricture of sorts for Rearden?
[19:47:36] Melch Savon: Only through personal experience ...
[19:48:22] Jack Sondergaard: if I always said what I thought, I'd have no friends and no job
[19:48:22] Melch Savon: Why? Because it holds the ideal, and only ideal, man to have different interests from Reardon. A totally different life direction even
[19:49:53] Ina Centaur: hmmm but what sort of effects does this have on Rearden?
[19:49:54] Jack Sondergaard: although I wish I had a job where I could speak my mind, it hasn't happened yet, so I bite my tongue and wait for a better time
[19:50:53] Melch Savon: Repression, frustration, doubts about expressing his true self to others, cofusion over whether what he desires is "right" to desire. That would be my guess. But I haven't read this book in years -- anyone else?
[19:51:23] Jordana McMahon: Reardon is a complex person
[19:52:07] Harman Mayo: very
[19:52:21] Jack Sondergaard: anyone who dares to think for themselves is a complex person
[19:53:13] sparkles Sieyes: i hope i did it righ but can download agaoin if i need to
[19:53:33] Ina Centaur: yes..
[19:53:49] Melch Savon: But are they right to go against the norms? Is Reardon?
[19:54:09] Harman Mayo: what's normal?
[19:54:21] Melch Savon: common consensus defines normality
[19:54:23] Ina Centaur: well, the topic that i guess we're not quite ready to bring up... but i might introduce was... "the sanction of the victim"
[19:54:26] Jack Sondergaard: if the norms were always right, it would be a perfect world
[19:54:36] Harman Mayo: society has different norms depending on any number of variables
[19:54:55] Ina Centaur: Rearden is victimized... by... his family, his wife, his workers, even...
[19:55:59] Jordana McMahon: I don't see how someone who allows himself to be a victom can be a hero
[19:56:15] Ina Centaur: yes, so his quest is to un-victimize himself ;-P
[19:56:18] Harman Mayo: oh yeah? - ever hear of christ?
[19:56:19] Melch Savon: if he overcomes his victimization, emerges better and nobler, how can he not?
[19:56:25] Ina Centaur: well, but we sort of see how he's an underdog..
[19:56:30] Ina Centaur: the way that his family, etc., treats him
[19:56:54] Jordana McMahon: yeah but Christ wasn't entirely human
[19:57:09] Jordana McMahon: I'll have to think about that one
[19:57:39] Harman Mayo: but both victim and hero, according yo the mythos
[19:57:44] Jordana McMahon: ok we are assuming he will overcome
[19:57:50] Melch Savon: Stewie on Family Guy said it: "Got a protaginist? Have an obstacle for him to overcome? Hmmm? Learn something? Better for it? Got a hero"
[19:58:21] Jordana McMahon: I have not read past chapter six
[19:58:36] Melch Savon: sorry, my mistake, jumping ahead
[19:59:25] Jordana McMahon: Ina you called it the :sanction of the victom" doesn't that mean approval of the victom
[19:59:27] Ina Centaur: lol ;-P
[19:59:38] Ina Centaur: yes, jordana :-)
[19:59:54] Ina Centaur: it's all Rearden's choice
[20:00:14] Harman Mayo: brb
[20:00:17] Ina Centaur: he has a thin for Dagny... Dagny's taking the chain means she has a thing for him, too
[20:00:45] Ina Centaur: but, he's allowing himself to go through this emotional torture...
[20:01:10] Ina Centaur: (this would be Rand's perspective, btw... not mine; not usually at least)
[20:01:34] Ina Centaur: and he's also indirectly hurting Dagny.
[20:01:57] Ina Centaur: (both of her men kinda turn on her @ the party)
[20:02:31] Ina Centaur: anyway though, there are also other issues besides his stale relationship with Lillian keeping him from achieving his happiness
[20:02:46] sparkles Sieyes: brb don't know what happened
[20:02:48] Ina Centaur: the way that his family treats him for one...
[20:04:05] Jordana McMahon: In a sense Dagny is a victim of
[20:04:11] Jordana McMahon: F and Reardon
[20:04:28] Jordana McMahon: but she handles it differently
[20:05:06] Melch Savon: I'm sorry, not having read it in awhile I forget. How does Dagny handle it?
[20:05:46] Jordana McMahon: well she doesn't act out in any way its more like ok thats odd
[20:06:04] Jordana McMahon: she carry's on
[20:06:19] Melch Savon: it's a fact, I'll deal with it and move on, that sort of attitude?
[20:06:29] Jordana McMahon: that's what I think
[20:06:50] Jordana McMahon: do you agree Ina
[20:07:08] Ina Centaur: hmmm
[20:07:44] Ina Centaur: she tries to ignore Francisco... his actions don't make sense to her
[20:07:54] Ina Centaur: oh, so i guess we might go on a recap to the last part of chapter 5
[20:08:50] Ina Centaur: i think it's obvious that Frisco's not a bum
[20:09:09] Ina Centaur: a bum can't plan things like this so precisely --- the whole San Sabestian Mines "swindle"
[20:09:40] Ina Centaur: dagny notes that Francisco hasn't changed
[20:09:50] Ina Centaur: on the small-scale, it seems like he's trying to prove a point
[20:10:06] Ina Centaur: he mentions that James and the others freeloaded on his past records
[20:10:14] Ina Centaur: without bothering to look at the details
[20:10:25] Ina Centaur: the reports and such of the mines
[20:12:24] Ina Centaur: hmm. dagny seems to miss that bit though
[20:12:32] Ina Centaur: the possibility that Frisco could be trying to prove a point
[20:13:31] Jordana McMahon: because it wasn't only James that lost out from Franciscos charade
[20:13:49] Jordana McMahon: lots of men lost money
[20:14:13] Ina Centaur: yes
[20:14:34] Jordana McMahon: I don't want to believe that F is a bad guy and he is even more sympathetic in chapter six
[20:14:52] Jordana McMahon: I was hoping he was the pirate looting off the shores of Del.
[20:15:01] Ina Centaur: i think he's trying to warn people with the San Sebastian "Catastrophe"
[20:15:18] Ina Centaur: oh hehe. that might be romantic, i think, if Frisco were the pirate ;-)
[20:15:27] Jordana McMahon: I thought so
[20:16:15] Jordana McMahon: Warn them of what?
[20:16:30] Ina Centaur: of things to come ;-)
[20:16:36] Jordana McMahon: The bad something that is happening to society
[20:17:02] Ina Centaur: hehehe
[20:17:22] Melch Savon: /me feels bad but has to admit he's totally forgotten the Fernando character. Must re-read relevant chapters this weekend ....
[20:17:55] Ina Centaur: oh, melch.. .you forgot Francisco dÁnconia?
[20:18:00] Jordana McMahon: Dagny's first romantic entaglement
[20:18:11] Melch Savon: Sorry, lacking the glandular bias :)
[20:18:16] Ina Centaur: our beloved producer who's currently posing as a world-class bum/ playboy
[20:18:18] Jordana McMahon: stop
[20:18:36] Melch Savon: d'Anconia rings a bell though
[20:19:01] Jordana McMahon: inheriter of millions
[20:19:08] Jordana McMahon: copper magnet
[20:19:30] Melch Savon: I promise, I'll read up this weekend. Only found out about this group today
[20:19:39] Jordana McMahon: I believe you
[20:19:54] Ina Centaur: hehe. np ;-)
[20:20:21] Ina Centaur: new people sorta drop in and out daily. origianlly, i was hoping to have a very details-oriented discussion of each chapter... but i guess i might make future discussions more general
[20:20:25] Jack Sondergaard: I think I know who should play Hank in the movie
[20:20:44] Melch Savon: Well, daily meetings and readings are a challenge for many of us
[20:20:50] Jordana McMahon: who jack
[20:20:51] Ina Centaur: i.e., i'll describe a few events from the novel, and pose a question that can be addressed by general knowledge
[20:21:10] Ina Centaur: hank... jack nicholson?
[20:21:19] Jack Sondergaard: Robert De Niro
[20:21:34] Ina Centaur: lol...
[20:21:36] Jordana McMahon: De Niro would be good
[20:21:37] Jack Sondergaard: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=256_1185891191
[20:21:41] Ina Centaur: he's the master thief in ocean's 13
[20:22:47] Jordana McMahon: oh I thought the explanation of John Galt was interesting
[20:22:47] Melch Savon: I just wanted to say finding this group is awesome by the way. Groups like this are part of what is really valuable about SL.
[20:23:13] Jack Sondergaard: it's either this or camping chairs
[20:23:43] Ina Centaur: thanks, melch :-)
[20:24:02] Ina Centaur: yes.. and camping seems more popular though >.<
[20:24:11] Ina Centaur: oh, yes, jordana, the explanation of Galt!
[20:24:18] Ina Centaur: several different POV's
[20:24:38] Ina Centaur: describe for us, first the common person's gossip version... and then Frisco's version?
[20:25:29] Jordana McMahon: I think the chatting woman said Galt found Atlantis
[20:26:03] Jordana McMahon: and I forgot what F said I think he said that was rubish I'm getting fuzzy
[20:26:25] Ina Centaur: oh F agreed
[20:26:40] Ina Centaur: what about the fountain of youth?
[20:27:01] Jordana McMahon: did I miss that I don't remember
[20:28:09] Jordana McMahon: what did he say about the fountain of youth
[20:29:19] Ina Centaur: ah, i might be getting that mixed up with something from another chapter
[20:29:44] Ina Centaur: but well... he found atlantis.. .and he went down with it
[20:29:47] Melch Savon: /me finished blogging about this meeting
[20:30:03] Melch Savon: You're all famous now!
[20:30:08] Ina Centaur: and Frisco comes along...
[20:30:18] Ina Centaur: and says he believes in this myth
[20:30:55] Ina Centaur: (heh, thanks Melch ... http://atlasshrugged.inacentaur.com ... is more or less where i keep track of these discussions, discussion logs etc )
[20:31:17] Melch Savon: (yeah, just advertising for you at hugelygreat.blogspot.com)
[20:32:35] Melch Savon: I have a question: is there anything in the past 6 chapters we can use as a guide to understand real life in any way?
[20:33:27] Jack Sondergaard: yes, the importance of holding onto reason
[20:33:38] Melch Savon: as opposed to?
[20:34:14] Ina Centaur: as opposed to being de-focused...
[20:34:19] Jack Sondergaard: anti-intellectualism
[20:34:26] Jordana McMahon: I was just going to say focus as well
[20:34:29] Ina Centaur: one of the topics brought up since the first discussion --- that of the ability to focus
[20:34:34] Melch Savon: hmmm, is reason the opposite of de-focused?
[20:34:48] Ina Centaur: the villains tend to vacillate... never wishing to identify the core of the matter
[20:35:04] Ina Centaur: ( de-focus is also known as "blanking out" )
[20:35:19] Melch Savon: So facing reality square in the face and not flinching would the be lesson then?
[20:35:39] Jack Sondergaard: reason is about thinking logically, not letting society think for you
[20:35:49] Jordana McMahon: and really looking at things in depth stay with it don't get sidetracked
[20:35:52] Ina Centaur: mm not merely facing reality... but just forcing yourself to analyze to get to the core of the matter
[20:35:58] Ina Centaur: ... since sometimes, it's not always that obvious ;-)
[20:36:22] Jordana McMahon: yup good question
[20:36:38] Melch Savon: Do you personally believe the world needs more of that?
[20:36:46] Ina Centaur: oh yes..
[20:36:47] Jordana McMahon: Yes
[20:36:49] Jack Sondergaard: focus is about zeroing in on detail, but reason also involves seeing the big picture
[20:36:52] Ina Centaur: let's take a SL example...
[20:36:54] Ina Centaur: "griefing"
[20:36:59] Ina Centaur: happens every minute... probably
[20:37:05] Ina Centaur: but... 99.9% of the time...
[20:37:10] Ina Centaur: griefing is probably caused by misunderstanding
[20:37:14] Ina Centaur: one party failing to understand another
[20:37:26] Ina Centaur: assuming the worst,... when perhaps no ill intent was posed
[20:37:54] Melch Savon: /me is pondering
[20:37:58] Ina Centaur: so misunderstaning is often due to "blanking out"
[20:38:11] Ina Centaur: not letting oneself to focus on the matter
[20:38:25] Jack Sondergaard: I always try to assume others have good motives unless solidly proven otherwise
[20:38:27] Ina Centaur: ... whether due to emotional whim or just lowering its priority
[20:39:19] Jordana McMahon: I think from childhood individuals today are becoming less and less focused too much multitasking
[20:39:23] Melch Savon: It seems assumptions are shortcuts we have to deal quickly with what could otherwise be an overwhelming amount of information from our environment. Can we even afford to be without them? All this takeing the time to really understand has to .. take time
[20:40:25] Melch Savon: Focus I understand
[20:40:27] Ina Centaur: yes, focusing is difficult...
[20:40:37] Ina Centaur: because it takes both effort
[20:40:41] Ina Centaur: and understanding... takes time
[20:40:55] Ina Centaur: usually, decisions have to be made lighting fast, spur of the moment
[20:41:10] Ina Centaur: with enough experience, i suppose, most of your quick decisions would be right
[20:41:22] Jack Sondergaard: television has encouraged a short attention span
[20:41:40] Ina Centaur: but... i guess the minor issues can allow for a degree of error... but, say, when griefing occurs on a large scale
[20:41:44] Melch Savon: I understand that Jack, but I am trying to understand what we think we *should* be, not what we are
[20:42:04] Melch Savon: How do you define the demarcation from minor to major?
[20:42:25] Ina Centaur: well, one example... you often have builds on entire sims getting derezzed because the builder suddenly has qualms with the owner's set of values
[20:42:49] Ina Centaur: or, you have expensive builds getting derezzed because the owner goes with whim to change his mind
[20:43:31] Jack Sondergaard: I hope you are getting paid by the hour
[20:43:39] Ina Centaur: minor... as in, say someone comes in nude to a PG region and gets banned
[20:43:57] Ina Centaur: jack.. not sure what you mean?
[20:44:05] Melch Savon: Let me propose an idea. We accept we can't focus on everything, but we choose what we are passionate about, focus on that, and make educated guesses in other areas of life, or hire others to deal with it. Would that be how we should live?
[20:44:16] Jack Sondergaard: do you build in SL for pay?
[20:44:52] Jack Sondergaard: study project management a lot, for a start
[20:45:23] Ina Centaur: yes, i think the emphasis would be on "educated guess" ..... too often, we let emotions overwhelm our decisions
[20:45:31] Melch Savon: I'm wiht you there Ina
[20:45:40] Ina Centaur: ... and, too often, the core of the matter has too many emotional ties that we're not willing to think through
[20:46:05] Melch Savon: Yup. But if is not related to a core focus, is my precious time worth working through the emotional ties. What would rand say?
[20:46:36] Jack Sondergaard: emotion is the tail of the dog, it wags, you might not be able to stop it, but don't let it wag the dog
[20:47:01] Ina Centaur: core issues are the most important.
[20:47:16] Ina Centaur: a more common mistake would be lessening the importance of an issue
[20:47:22] Ina Centaur: just because you don't want to deal with it
[20:47:44] Ina Centaur: so, ideally, if you know for sure an issue is not related to the pressing issue of the moment, then, obviously that gets less priority
[20:48:06] Melch Savon: I like that. Mostly because I agree, but still.
[20:48:18] Melch Savon: Do you apply that to your life at all?
[20:48:25] Ina Centaur: i guess, things are much messier in RL
[20:48:32] Ina Centaur: oh, i attempt to apply it
[20:48:43] Ina Centaur: but, then, there are certain cases that seem to disallow its application
[20:49:07] Ina Centaur: say, for example, you attempt to analyze the situation of why another party dislikes you
[20:49:23] Ina Centaur: but, the other party would not tell you why... and would more or less "blow up" every single time you ask
[20:49:48] Ina Centaur: now, why would this other party matter.. say you're somehow stuck with this party as your business partner or whatever
[20:50:11] Ina Centaur: and, then, this partner is actually doing things *against* both you.. and possibly the biz because of this dislike
[20:50:28] Ina Centaur: .. say spreading biased rumors from their POV, for one
[20:51:00] Melch Savon: well, I would say you are down to (a) accepting, without emotion this party dislikes you, and (b) rationally decide if the venture is worth pursuing with the part. If not, then you plan a separation to the best advantage you can get and go. If so you suck it up. That's not rational?
[20:51:24] Jack Sondergaard: that's very unprofessional behaviour
[20:51:40] Ina Centaur: so, you want to get to the core of the situation, but the other party is closed to discussion. you can analyze it from a thousand different ways, but, if they don't tell, it's impossible to pinpoint... and maybe, there really is no actual reason they dislikeyou... it's just this emotional manifestation that somehow erupted after a series of events
[20:52:13] Melch Savon: Then you have a choice, based on personal self-interest, to endure it or to leave it, right?
[20:52:44] Jack Sondergaard: I think I would be looking for the door if that would be practical
[20:52:53] Ina Centaur: lol guys.
[20:53:39] Ina Centaur: oh, but in this case, that would mean that i derez the entire sim and get out of this whole trying to develop the literary part of SL ;-)
[20:54:13] Ina Centaur: yes, so, in my RL, i am in a state Rand would not approve of ;-)
[20:54:44] Melch Savon: Again, its a matter of personal priorities. If you believe the long-term effects of his behaviour will ruin it anyways, well ... if you value your not being made to feel that way is more important than the sim, leave, start over ... if you value the sim more, smile, and maximize personal happiness
[20:54:56] Jack Sondergaard: you have the most facts, so have to make the final decision after listening to advice
[20:55:08] Ina Centaur: but, i don't believe in the same clear-cut absolutes as Rand.. especially when it involves the destruction of things created for both the greater good and my own personal enjoyment
[20:55:13] Melch Savon: Me, I just shut down a profitable business because I believed my partners actions would eventually kill it, and he began hoarding information
[20:55:38] Melch Savon: That just says you may at times value the common good over your personal happiness
[20:55:59] Jack Sondergaard: I have too many times stayed in a job long after I should have left
[20:56:10] Melch Savon: Or that you are happier providing for the common good than your personal happiness
[20:56:47] Ina Centaur: so, i'm basically trying to deflect these vicious rumors by allowing myself the time to do what i've always wanted to try on SL... stuff like the impossible... getting the ADD-audience of SL to do readathons on Atlas Shrugged, etc..... while simultaneously giving actual actions that should be adequate to debunk the groundless accusations
[20:56:55] Jack Sondergaard: but I also realize I will never find the perfect job, so I just try to find the best one I can
[20:56:56] Melch Savon: /me notices Jordana has not commented in awhile
[20:57:49] Melch Savon: Well, Jack's earlier comments about short attention spans are, I believe, dead on. But the more you can encourage real, critical thinking, the more I am with you
[20:57:52] Jordana McMahon: I am hanging on every word
[20:58:00] Melch Savon: Don't let go! You might fall!
[20:58:18] Jordana McMahon: I won't
[20:58:25] Ina Centaur: hehehe
[21:00:00] Ina Centaur: well, just a few weeks ago we had a major discussion here... where said accuser basically claimed i was an exploiter... more or less for claiming credit for the builds.
[21:00:42] Melch Savon: You're feeling hurt, right? Yet not long ago I recall being encouraged to be rational, not emotional.
[21:00:56] Ina Centaur: basically, i built the buildings on this island pro bono... and planned many of the major events (http://calendar.sliterary.com)
[21:01:02] Jordana McMahon: easier said than done
[21:01:20] Melch Savon: I know, but who said it would be easy. Life without emotion is life without music
[21:01:46] Jack Sondergaard: keep your options open and the door unlocked, it might be easier to leave and start over on other land
[21:01:48] Melch Savon: My thought -- if he is a hassle, walk, rebuild elsewhere. That kind of pesonality digs its own grabe.
[21:01:58] Melch Savon: "its own grave" I mean
[21:02:09] Jordana McMahon: Ina do you do the actual building or commsion it
[21:02:39] Ina Centaur: vision: a creative's community/mecca of creativity. west side, literary-ish; east side, art/music-ish. those who help out with events or builds or scripts would get free spacing
[21:02:58] Ina Centaur: lol yes, i guess that's a good question, jordana.
[21:03:16] Ina Centaur: most people would expect that i only did the planning. nowadays, CEO type's are singularly good at one thing, and that's often not creation.
[21:03:23] Ina Centaur: but, i think i'm more like the Francisco type...
[21:03:33] Ina Centaur: later on in the novel, an accident would occur
[21:03:54] Ina Centaur: Rearden's mill would have a leak... and Francisco would be present there with him at the time
[21:04:47] Ina Centaur: in order to fix the leak, you had to do some very base/dirty task... it's typically not something you'd expect someone high up to know how to do. but, it's one of the nitty gritties that's part of running the place.
[21:04:55] Melch Savon: /me has to bow out. 2 hours is his limit -- work to do in the morning. He will try to attend as many meetings as possible though
[21:05:21] Ina Centaur: Frisco, as you recall from earlier chapters, actually went around and tried what it's like to be a copper worker ;-)
[21:05:31] Jordana McMahon: yes
[21:05:35] Melch Savon: Night all
[21:05:43] Jordana McMahon: night Melch
[21:05:44] Ina Centaur: so anyway, the long point: yes, i built it... but you shouldn't disbelieve that even though i'm actually running events and planning as well
[21:05:50] Ina Centaur: night melch
[21:06:03] Jack Sondergaard: I have discussions at my house sometimes, it's not hard to announce them, and if you can't get along with your current business partner, than maybe splitting up would be the rational thing to do
[21:06:04] Jordana McMahon: well that wasn't my point at all
[21:06:08] Ina Centaur: basically, i like being able to do everything..
[21:06:09] Ina Centaur: or..
[21:06:11] Ina Centaur: hav eexperience in all
[21:06:52] Jordana McMahon: my point is if you build that is amazing to me because I find building very difficult and I wouldn't consider it dirty work at all
[21:07:10] Ina Centaur: well, i guess i'll present the problem to you guys from (hopefully) an unbiased perspective
[21:07:34] Jordana McMahon: so the land is owned by someone else
[21:07:49] Ina Centaur: i think we're through, but i have been asking this "partner" to give me a formal announcement of her decision.
[21:08:18] Ina Centaur: she thinks that i'm trapping her with that, but, it's all just part of the process. it would not be fair to others if she squats a large parcel of space when she's not doing any work
[21:10:09] Ina Centaur: but, she threatens me that she'd spread even more crap about me if she moves out.... so, i was hoping to run this place under a sort of Randian meritocracy, where people would be awarded land in exchange for their services. typically, the land is worth much more than the pay in $L...
[21:10:19] Ina Centaur: and straight on, we have our first freeloader!
[21:10:33] Jordana McMahon: oh boy
[21:11:20] Jack Sondergaard: sounds like a clear choice based on what you have said
[21:11:32] Ina Centaur: yeup-.- so, in this case, it's kinda messy biz. if i were Randian, i would just kick her out. but, currently i'm trying to wait it out. (although it's been over 2 months already)
[21:11:50] Jordana McMahon: can you kick her out
[21:11:55] Ina Centaur: but, the problem was that i've entrusted in her way too much
[21:12:11] Ina Centaur: i basically gave her all my publicity contacts and entrusted the whole PR/image to her
[21:12:15] Ina Centaur: and people... are sheeple
[21:12:26] Ina Centaur: she tells them what to think.. and they'd think that
[21:12:43] Jordana McMahon: SL is not a utopia
[21:12:46] Ina Centaur: i dunno.. i'm kinda doing this discussion as a way to avoid thinking about that..
[21:13:23] Jack Sondergaard: who pays the rent?
[21:13:26] Jordana McMahon: do you have others in RL to get advice from
[21:13:40] Ina Centaur: anyway though, she hasn't really done anything here for the past two months.
[21:14:23] Ina Centaur: oh, the prob is, the whole thing was pursued under experimental conditions.. the whole idea of spacing/being part of a community for service. i don't have a precedent case in RL to compare to
[21:14:43] Ina Centaur: people in RL tend to think SL is "just a game"
[21:15:02] Jack Sondergaard: if someone doesn't work for 2 months, do they deserve the job?
[21:15:09] Jordana McMahon: the same problems here as out there
[21:15:36] Ina Centaur: oh, the partner only had PR to do... (and she didnt'even do a great job at that either... often misspelling people's names and forgetting locations of events... >.<)
[21:15:46] Jordana McMahon: no way and if you can hire and fire you have a right to fire someone you don't have faith in
[21:15:50] Ina Centaur: basically, the place is run as a nonprofit, and is in process of registering as NPO
[21:16:08] Ina Centaur: and, although i asked her help on finding sponsors, i ended up being the only person in that dept
[21:16:51] Ina Centaur: yeah, but what if that person sort of controls the mind of a whole bunch of people?
[21:16:57] Jack Sondergaard: how much total land is involved?
[21:17:08] Ina Centaur: this entire sim is sLiterary
[21:17:20] Jack Sondergaard: oh, that's a lot
[21:17:46] Ina Centaur: yes, i guess ;-)
[21:18:10] Jack Sondergaard: with that much money on the table, can you afford to put up with incompetence?
[21:18:15] Jordana McMahon: yeah I dont know can other people harm your investment here or just make you feel bad ( not that that isn't bad enought)
[21:18:39] Ina Centaur: well, you can't have a community with just land and buildings
[21:19:08] Ina Centaur: .. and, she, apparently, controls the people
[21:19:17] Ina Centaur: not everyone.. but a chunk.. not even a majority.. but a good chunk
[21:19:28] Jordana McMahon: you started out with just land and buildings
[21:19:28] Ina Centaur: enough that she could totally use them as testbed to spread even more vicious rumors
[21:19:40] Jack Sondergaard: the people, do you mean the other group members?
[21:19:51] Ina Centaur: not just this group.. but sevearl others
[21:20:14] Ina Centaur: basically, a number of those active on SL who's into this kinda non-clubby/non-campy stuff
[21:20:18] Jordana McMahon: how long have the rumors been going on?
[21:21:21] Ina Centaur: oh more or less.. 2 months?
[21:21:30] Jordana McMahon: tough situation Ina. I sure don't have expertise in this area
[21:21:55] Ina Centaur: probably less. at first she just suddenly one day decided she didn't like me.. and then later i hear from the grapevine vague ideas of why...
[21:22:20] Ina Centaur: right, so about 2 weeks ago, we had a discussion with the tenants here .. and she was here as well
[21:25:08] Ina Centaur: she kept on calling me an exploiter because she claims i used her. however, she has always known my goal for this project and had even helped flesh out some of it, and she even has like 10x more space than anyone on the sim. also, she discredited sliterary because it's not yet a registered nonprofit. (well, i had invited her to help with the paperwork, but... i guess if sliterary ever gets registerd as an NPO, i'd be the one who reads thru all the fineprint and paperwork etc)
[21:25:46] Ina Centaur: i think that accusation was not the core that she was trying to spill. but it was just something that manifested in a bunch of angst.
[21:26:32] Ina Centaur: because, along with all that... she also tells me that i'm a horrible writer, and shouldn't bother to write. ...... when, i've always thought that one of her core beliefs was to encourage more women to write... because of the lack of women authors out there
[21:26:55] Ina Centaur: heh. i am getting carried away.
[21:27:04] Jack Sondergaard: can you be more specific as to the nature of the gossip she is spreading?
[21:27:14] Ina Centaur: but anyway... that's just a long-story example when it's not quite possible to focus on the core...
[21:27:25] Jordana McMahon: wow she is really angry I think you are letting her get to you
[21:27:42] Jack Sondergaard: does she want control of the sim?
[21:27:58] Jack Sondergaard: does she want you out?
[21:28:13] Ina Centaur: well, there's stuff i hear second or 3rd hand from the grapevine. a lot of nasty stuff. and then the stuff she blew up on in our community discussion 2 weeks ago
[21:28:38] Ina Centaur: it was mainly this belief of hers that i exploited her
[21:28:56] Jordana McMahon: and did you talk to some others that were there after the meeting
[21:28:57] Ina Centaur: i think she probably wants me out
[21:29:04] Ina Centaur: which is kinda silly because the sim isn't done yet
[21:29:12] Jordana McMahon: what is their feeling
[21:29:38] Ina Centaur: well, i think they thought she was irrational in angst, as well
[21:29:49] Jordana McMahon: there you go
[21:29:56] Ina Centaur: but then, people rarely say what they really feel. or maybe they all felt sorry for me. who knows
[21:30:11] Jack Sondergaard: just keep in mind that if you have to abandon this sim, you can start over, maybe with less land but more control
[21:30:45] Ina Centaur: well, it's not that easy
[21:30:47] Jack Sondergaard: it won't be the end of the world if that happens
[21:31:04] Jack Sondergaard: just saying if it comes to that
[21:31:33] Jordana McMahon: Is this person also committed to the goals of SLiterary
[21:31:43] Ina Centaur: i don't think control would ever fully be mine. again, she was PR and so she sheeples the people
[21:32:28] Ina Centaur: well, she seems to tell the world that she is. but, she publically announced she won't have anything to do with sLiterary anymore, 2 weeks ago. (she convinced her friend to unjoin the group... but she has yet to do so herself.)
[21:33:26] Ina Centaur: (and again, she's still squatting here. and she won't give me a solid written answer that would officiate her decision to totally sever herself)
[21:33:42] Jack Sondergaard: I would ask her about that, is she going to unjoin the group like she promised?
[21:33:53] Jordana McMahon: you need a new PR person to conteract her PR
[21:34:16] Ina Centaur: i mean.. it's clear that she has way too much to do. she's running this SLTV show on this other sim and actually needs the money for it
[21:34:30] Jack Sondergaard: or be your own PR person
[21:34:50] Ina Centaur: so she really hasn't done anything. like, sometimes, she "helps" with posting event notices (but, of course, not for this one.)
[21:34:58] Ina Centaur: *hasn't done anything in the past 2 months
[21:35:28] Ina Centaur: but the notices are often error filled.. and i don't think they take long enough to post to make her spacing fair in hourage
[21:36:06] Jack Sondergaard: I did a 45 minute interview for the local paper recently, they published about one small paragraph and made several errors, I've learned it's good to be your own editor
[21:36:09] Ina Centaur: yeah, so right now, i am basically back to running this gigangic one-girl-show.
[21:36:40] Ina Centaur: ... oh, incidentally, one reason why i created the P.S. group... was because she totally went crazy threatening that she'd spread vicious rumors (not just about me but) about sLiterary
[21:37:03] Jordana McMahon: are the regulars from this group aware of this problem
[21:37:07] Jordana McMahon: just curious
[21:37:27] Ina Centaur: anyway, for sLiterary, paperwork of NPOing will be one of the first things to do.
[21:37:57] Ina Centaur: yeah, they're aware of it.. and i think everyone has a different POV of it.. and maybe most of them have been sheepled by her
[21:38:43] Ina Centaur: lol or possibly sheepled by me... dunno; it's kinda hard to imagine that some can really be as destructive as she seems to me right now.
[21:38:56] Ina Centaur: oh, but she does know my one weakness...
[21:39:17] Ina Centaur: one of the reasons why i built the buildings here for free... is because... i sorta want to see my builds last
[21:39:32] Ina Centaur: i mean, before this, i used to build clubs and casinos for like $L100k
[21:39:41] Ina Centaur: but they'd disappear after a few weeks or months...
[21:39:54] Ina Centaur: (a lot of rich kids come into SL.. and then quit it like the passing rage)
[21:40:35] Ina Centaur: the owners would basically find that SL isn't working for them.. ignoring the fact that the truth is probably they dunno how to run a club >.<
[21:41:08] Jack Sondergaard: most businesses fail in RL too
[21:41:25] Jack Sondergaard: that's to be expected here too
[21:41:38] Ina Centaur: yeah, well, i just wanted to see my builds last.
[21:42:09] Jack Sondergaard: you have to get a lot of things right all at the same time to make a business work
[21:42:14] Ina Centaur: basically the flux goes like this: it's either i get paid a whole lot building for someone giving them all rights to my build... or i do it for free on a sim like this
[21:43:05] Ina Centaur: and, it totally hurts me every time a build dies
[21:43:38] Ina Centaur: and, that's one of the things she knows
[21:43:46] Ina Centaur: i guess... i could have gone Atlas Shrugged on her...
[21:43:47] Jack Sondergaard: here's a thought if this doesn't get solved, build for money, but keep a small parcel for yourself to have discussions and poetry readings
[21:43:49] Ina Centaur: counter her threat with..
[21:44:01] Ina Centaur: if you plan to spread shiat like that about sLiterary.. i'll just de-rez the whole place
[21:44:39] Ina Centaur: btw, she's not the sponsor and actually almost hurt this place's chance of getting sponsors
[21:45:27] Jack Sondergaard: I built my own house, it's small, but a good place for discussions, and I have no one to tell me what to do with it
[21:45:28] Ina Centaur: well jack, if i suddenly turned this place commercial instead of nonprofit, as it had been
[21:45:32] Ina Centaur: that would be feeding her rumors
[21:45:58] Ina Centaur: the one thing i know for sure she's said (i.e. not heard via grapevine second hand)... is that i am an exploiter for telling her that this place was nonprofit, when i am actually commercial
[21:46:17] Jack Sondergaard: so is she accusing you of empire-building?
[21:46:19] Ina Centaur: but, that just doesn't make sense... since i think it's general knowledge to both she and others that i have both built for money and make skisn and other stuff for money
[21:47:30] Jack Sondergaard: have you tried having private meetings with the other group members?
[21:47:35] Jordana McMahon: is she saying only she was exploited or others as well
[21:48:05] Ina Centaur: i don't think it's empire-building per se... i don't really know what's her thing, other than that... all of a sudden, one day, she decides she hates me and won't tell me why
[21:48:49] Jordana McMahon: maybe she had a plan from the beginning to make trouble
[21:49:01] Ina Centaur: i think there were some things building up to it... one of the things --- i wanted to register as nonprofit sLiterary Magazine, publishes "fiction of the metaverse" ... but she disagreed, saying that she doesn't approve of that, as it would ruin her name if she's associated with a nonprofit literary magazine(?)
[21:49:05] Jack Sondergaard: I would just tell her that if she hates you, to leave the group and let you do your own thing
[21:49:13] Jordana McMahon: get herself free living space for no work
[21:49:13] Ina Centaur: btw http://sliterary.com
[21:49:50] Ina Centaur: she's saying she was exploited because i told her this was nonprofit, and she now believes it is commercial
[21:50:39] Ina Centaur: oh, and right, there's also the bit where i took credit for these builds in portfolio -- but she never offered to help with the builds... not even to take photos of the GLobe even though she lives in the same city!
[21:51:00] Ina Centaur: so she thinks that if i take credit for the builds, this place is commericalized(?)
[21:51:57] Ina Centaur: well, maybe it's that jordana... and, come to think of it, she openly complained to me of her previous "employer/project" on SL in the first convo we had
[21:52:35] Jack Sondergaard: sounds like you just need to part company with her
[21:52:45] Ina Centaur: she was involved with the SL Book Fair, and she did it voluntarily, claimed she basically got everyone to fill the booths, and the RL media... and wasn't offered pay or even spacing. (she had to rent out a booth)
[21:53:57] Ina Centaur: and, it's interesting the effects of the stuff she told me. my POV of her previous "employer" is rather bad, such that i'd wan to have nothing to do with them.
[21:54:19] Ina Centaur: ... even though i don't really know them firsthand, and have not even had the chance to seriously talk to them.
[21:54:40] Ina Centaur: so, again, there goes the problem of her threat
[21:54:50] Ina Centaur: she's quite good at making people believe in what she wants them to believe
[21:55:21] Jordana McMahon: you can't let her get away with it
[21:55:31] Ina Centaur: well, there's not much i can do.
[21:55:59] Jack Sondergaard: I would talk with all the other group members about it
[21:56:08] Ina Centaur: i'm waiting it out. maybe she'd cool down and figure out what it is that she wants and just directly states it ... instead of just hinting at it .. or not even hinting at it
[21:56:52] Jack Sondergaard: is she still causing trouble right now?
[21:57:18] Ina Centaur: i would assume that the ad-hoc meeting we had 2 weeks ago was the major event of catharsis she needed to vent out in
[21:58:46] Ina Centaur: but, from my POV, though, she's kinda slighting the people involved in minor ways. for one, she's signed onto totally unrelated groups to spread spam for our events
[21:58:54] Jack Sondergaard: does the group have a charter or mission statement?
[21:59:26] Ina Centaur: nothing official, but our action and events should support it completely
[22:00:09] Jack Sondergaard: I would put it in writing and forbid her from spamming other groups
[22:00:30] Jack Sondergaard: that is against SL rules
[22:00:48] Ina Centaur: for this sim... vision: mecca of creativity. those who help out with events or builds or scripts would get free spacing
[22:01:29] Ina Centaur: so, basically the "currency" (of spacing) also helps "fund" the creativity
[22:01:52] Jack Sondergaard: but who pays the montly sim rent?
[22:01:55] Ina Centaur: well, she basically won't take "orders" from me anymore
[22:02:26] Ina Centaur: currently, we have a major sponsor who pays the monthly sim rent
[22:03:39] Ina Centaur: but, i guess, i should probably just buy the sim myself. except, ideally, i'd like this to be more than another one of my projects
[22:03:46] Jack Sondergaard: is she aware that spamming is a violation of SL TOS?
[22:04:53] Ina Centaur: i'd like to establish sLiterary as a nonprofit org. so, i guess that more or less means that assets have to come from sponsors.
[22:05:16] Ina Centaur: i have a board in mind.
[22:05:35] Ina Centaur: oh, so i guess i could tell her that spamming is a violation of SL TOS
[22:05:54] Ina Centaur: i mean.. she announced a poetry reading to the art
[22:06:11] Ina Centaur: (and interestingly... she didn't send it out to the major groups... Poetry Guild and Writers of SL)
[22:06:46] Jack Sondergaard: you need to get the prospective board members together, write a charter, make the rules clear, and see to it that she understands them
[22:06:56] Ina Centaur: i dunno. i'm still trying to figure out if she's petty enough to be doing that to piss me off... art
[22:07:18] Ina Centaur: ok, that's basically a good plan
[22:07:57] Jordana McMahon: I have to leave you all my eyes won't stay open
[22:07:59] Ina Centaur: but, here's the thing. so we establish the meritocracy of spacing for services. she really doesn't contribute, so should not deserve the spacing.
[22:08:01] Jack Sondergaard: get all the major players to agree on a plan
[22:08:19] Ina Centaur: so we could say "by policy, you have to remove all your stuff"
[22:08:29] Ina Centaur: (nite jordana)
[22:08:35] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[22:08:37] Jordana McMahon: good luck Ina
[22:08:44] Jordana McMahon: don't be a victim
[22:08:45] Jack Sondergaard: good night Jordana
[22:08:47] Ina Centaur: g'luck to you jordana ;-)
[22:08:51] Jordana McMahon: night jack
[22:09:21] Ina Centaur: sanction of the victim..
[22:09:29] Ina Centaur: oh i wish RL were as easy as Atlas Shrugged
[22:09:44] Jack Sondergaard: yes, RL is real hard
[22:10:05] Ina Centaur: but anyway, she does have a major asset. she knows how to convince people to dislike someone.
[22:10:29] Jack Sondergaard: I started reading chapter 6 early in the meeting, I think I will get a lot from it
[22:10:37] Ina Centaur: and, afterwards, she'd deny that it was ever her doing
[22:10:45] Ina Centaur: hehe
[22:10:47] Ina Centaur: so chapter 6
[22:10:50] Ina Centaur: how much of it have you read btw?
[22:10:55] Jack Sondergaard: she has talent then, just needs to take it somewhere else
[22:11:24] Ina Centaur: The Noncommercial... wherein Rearden's green chain gets transferred from Lillian to Dagny ;-P ... and we see some of the major ideas of modern philosophy get reduced to the scrags @ the party
[22:11:39] Jack Sondergaard: 12 pages
[22:12:14] Jack Sondergaard: I got to the part where Dagny arrives
[22:12:29] Jack Sondergaard: but I need to start from the beginning
[22:13:21] Jack Sondergaard: I put the audiobook on reserve at the library, it just the abridged version
[22:13:34] Jack Sondergaard: I will probably get it tomorrow
[22:14:09] Jack Sondergaard: but after reading a few pages of the book, I think the abridged version leaves out most of the good parts
[22:14:16] Ina Centaur: oh, there's also an unabrideged version...
[22:14:23] Ina Centaur: of the audiobooks.
[22:14:23] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[22:14:44] Jack Sondergaard: the full version is in 3 volumes
[22:14:56] Jack Sondergaard: and costs about $150
[22:15:06] Ina Centaur: hmm the library should probably have the unabridged..
[22:15:23] Jack Sondergaard: they should get it, I will suggest it
[22:15:27] Ina Centaur: i remember getting it from the public library (although it was in the next town) back one year in college
[22:16:02] Jack Sondergaard: but that's a big commitment of money for an audiobook
[22:16:31] Jack Sondergaard: I'll just read the book
[22:17:49] Ina Centaur: lol..
[22:18:10] Ina Centaur: yes, the unabridged edition has the male narrator attempting to go castrati for the female roles >.<
[22:18:23] Jack Sondergaard: do you have any more questions about the sim?
[22:18:24] Ina Centaur: it is kinda comical at times.. and he gives Francisco a noticeable accent
[22:18:26] Jack Sondergaard: yikes
[22:18:34] Ina Centaur: but overall, it was a good reading
[22:18:43] Ina Centaur: great for multitasking.
[22:18:55] Jack Sondergaard: the abridged version I think is read by Edward Herman
[22:19:15] Jack Sondergaard: one of my favorite narrators
[22:19:34] Ina Centaur: Christopher Hurt
[22:20:13] Ina Centaur: i wonder what the abridged version cut out...
[22:21:12] Jack Sondergaard: I think most of the philosophy
[22:21:22] Jack Sondergaard: which is my favorite part
[22:21:25] Ina Centaur: lol
[22:21:29] Ina Centaur: i'm guessing Galt's speech
[22:21:48] Jack Sondergaard: no, I remember that was in it
[22:21:50] Ina Centaur: that was the one thing that kept Rand's novel from getting accepted for publication.
[22:21:57] Ina Centaur: pretty much every editor wanted her to edit it
[22:22:02] Ina Centaur: shorten it...
[22:22:22] Ina Centaur: but Rand was adament about keeping it, so the novel was delayed from publication for 10 years..
[22:22:38] Jack Sondergaard: did you watch the Robert De Niro video clip I mentioned earlier?
[22:23:11] Jack Sondergaard: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=256_1185891191
[22:23:43] Jack Sondergaard: that's why I said he would be perfect for the part
[22:23:50] Ina Centaur: sec loading ;-)
[22:24:58] Ina Centaur: lol
[22:25:01] Ina Centaur: i don't see it...
[22:25:11] Ina Centaur: de niro getting pissed about energetic?
[22:25:16] Jack Sondergaard: I get a good laugh every time I see it
[22:25:34] Ina Centaur: i mean.. i don't see de niro being rearden from the clip though...
[22:25:43] Jack Sondergaard: he knows when he's being told to generate faked emotion
[22:25:56] Ina Centaur: lol...
[22:26:11] Ina Centaur: so that's it? o_O
[22:26:40] Jack Sondergaard: he has a certain way he sees acting a part and doesn't want to overact
[22:26:50] Jack Sondergaard: that's why he's the best
[22:27:09] Ina Centaur: lol
[22:27:14] Ina Centaur: if you say so ;-P
[22:27:41] Jack Sondergaard: Robert De Niro says so
[22:27:52] Ina Centaur: as for the cast of a.s. .. i think angelina jolie = dagny.. most definitely
[22:28:31] Ina Centaur: not sure about brad pitt as john galt...
[22:28:58] Ina Centaur: then again.... the alterego from Fight Club does sorta have that galt-ly appeal
[22:29:23] Jack Sondergaard: I love Fight Club
[22:29:36] Ina Centaur: oh yeah.. that's one of my top 5 ;-P
[22:29:46] Jack Sondergaard: and Deathrace 2000 and The Running Man
[22:29:51] Ina Centaur: requiem for a dream, matrix, fight club
[22:30:11] Jack Sondergaard: yes, requim too
[22:30:19] Ina Centaur: kill bill ;-P
[22:30:20] Jack Sondergaard: requiem
[22:30:31] Jack Sondergaard: I haven't seen Kill Bill yet
[22:30:37] Ina Centaur: ohh you've gotta see it
[22:30:57] Jack Sondergaard: OK
[22:31:17] Ina Centaur: i mean.. it's not bad for a quentin tarentino film ;-)
[22:31:22] Ina Centaur: lol more than that
[22:31:34] Ina Centaur: despite all the blood, there are some interesting ideas in it
[22:31:35] Jack Sondergaard: Requiem For A Heavyweight is great too
[22:31:45] Ina Centaur: r for a heavyweight?
[22:31:57] Jack Sondergaard: yes, about boxing
[22:32:11] Jack Sondergaard: with Mickey Rooney and Jackie Gleason
[22:32:25] Jack Sondergaard: best movie for each of them
[22:32:35] Ina Centaur: title sounds like a parody of R for a Dream though..
[22:32:54] Jack Sondergaard: it was made decades ago
[22:33:18] Jack Sondergaard: black and white
[22:33:20] Ina Centaur: 1962
[22:33:30] Ina Centaur: 7.7 on IMDB.. not bad ;-P
[22:34:29] Ina Centaur: hmm but for old movies... Godfather and Somewhere in Time
[22:34:29] Jack Sondergaard: best boxing movie I have ever seen, and really shows how tawdry "professional wrestling" is
[22:35:31] Jack Sondergaard: I haven't seen Somewhere In Time
[22:35:43] Ina Centaur: oh, it's a really old movie
[22:36:01] Ina Centaur: the movie the original superman played in before he was superman
[22:36:18] Jack Sondergaard: oh that one
[22:36:19] Ina Centaur: based on a richard matheson novel
[22:36:30] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I remember now
[22:36:41] Ina Centaur: it's just very well done; the editing and cuts etc
[22:37:04] Jack Sondergaard: Mary Steenburgen
[22:38:20] Ina Centaur: mm not that one..
[22:38:36] Ina Centaur: i think that one is time after time, based on HG Wells
[22:39:12] Ina Centaur: http://imdb.com/title/tt0081534/
[22:39:17] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[22:39:43] Ina Centaur: amazed it only got a 6.9 on imdb..
[22:39:50] Ina Centaur: was top 10 movies of all time on rottentomatoes
[22:42:30] Ina Centaur: hmm actually it wasn't..
[22:42:41] Ina Centaur: casablanca
[22:44:18] Jack Sondergaard: I should see Casablanca again
[22:44:46] Jack Sondergaard: I saw it when I was young and didn't think much of it
[22:46:08] Ina Centaur: it's nice editing
[22:46:28] Ina Centaur: generally, movies that i like have great editing
[22:46:44] Ina Centaur: dunno.. when i watch a movie, i tend to want to sit down for a short time and get something out of it
[22:47:10] Ina Centaur: usually, good editing is a big part for having the movie have meaning
[22:47:52] Ina Centaur: i'm going to reserve requiem for a boxer..
[22:47:59] Ina Centaur: i think it'd be kinda fun to start a film discussion series
[22:49:32] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[22:50:08] Jack Sondergaard: there was another Bogart movie I liked a lot better than Casablanca
[22:50:41] Jack Sondergaard: my land just sold
[22:51:09] Jack Sondergaard: jazz club next door wanted the land
[22:51:23] Jack Sondergaard: I have another place already picked out
[22:52:00] Ina Centaur: cool
[22:52:27] Jack Sondergaard: I think for a movie group let everyone say what their favorites are and why
[22:53:17] Jack Sondergaard: I just wish it was real easy to stream movies into SL
[22:53:39] Ina Centaur: actually it is pretty easy to stream movies
[22:53:50] Ina Centaur: well low-res vcd-style stuff at least
[22:54:27] Ina Centaur: i think it'd be fun to have a group for the messier movies, whose point isn't quite clear.. like Matrix II or Underworld II
[22:54:41] Jack Sondergaard: yes, that's good for some things, especially funny old public service movies
[22:54:41] Ina Centaur: basically. watch discuss
[22:54:56] Jack Sondergaard: or Memento
[22:55:04] Ina Centaur: oh memento was very well edited
[22:55:07] Jack Sondergaard: or anything by David Lynch
[22:55:12] Ina Centaur: bu i guess there are multiple interps..
[22:55:43] Jack Sondergaard: I watched Memento about 6 times before I figured it out
[22:56:22] Jack Sondergaard: I have all of Twin Peaks
[22:56:45] Ina Centaur: lol
[22:57:09] Ina Centaur: hmm memento is open ended though
[22:57:20] Ina Centaur: it could be the guy wrongfully killed everyone
[22:57:27] Ina Centaur: or it could be he came close to full revenge
[22:57:29] Jack Sondergaard: it's in reverse order
[22:57:37] Ina Centaur: dunno.. guy w/o memory... kinda the worst possible hero >.<
[22:57:57] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[22:59:40] Jack Sondergaard: I think it was made in reverse so the audience would experience what it's like to have to rely on our imperfect memory to construct the plot in reverse
[23:00:11] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:00:15] Jack Sondergaard: it is one of the most brilliant movies ever made, in my opinionn
[23:00:32] Ina Centaur: yes sorta gives you the experience of being a hipocampal-damage patient
[23:00:50] Ina Centaur: yes, but it leaves you with a dreadful feeling
[23:00:52] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I knew someone like that
[23:00:56] Ina Centaur: kinda the "man is forlorn" feeling
[23:01:18] Jack Sondergaard: she would ask a question, and then ask it again 10 seconds later
[23:01:56] Jack Sondergaard: what's scary is that she was a candy-striper
[23:01:58] Ina Centaur: yup... met people like that back when i studied cog neurosci
[23:02:14] Ina Centaur: (minor)
[23:02:19] Ina Centaur: hmm candy-striper?
[23:02:48] Jack Sondergaard: hospital volunteer assistant
[23:03:15] Jack Sondergaard: time for your shot
[23:03:19] Ina Centaur: eek..
[23:07:31] Jack Sondergaard: speaking of faulty memories
[23:08:52] Jack Sondergaard: I found the movie I was trying to remember with Bogart
[23:09:02] Jack Sondergaard: Deep Valley
[23:09:10] Jack Sondergaard: but he wasn't in it
[23:09:20] Jack Sondergaard: it was Dane Clark
[23:10:20] Ina Centaur: lol yes.. funny how we get the movies all mixed up
[23:10:29] Ina Centaur: a lot of them sorta just blend together
[23:10:56] Jack Sondergaard: and all my life I had been thinking it was my favorite Bogart movie
[23:11:35] Jack Sondergaard: Ida Lupino is in it, also one of my favorites
[23:12:09] Jack Sondergaard: she is in Requim For A Heavyweight and Twin Peaks also
[23:12:21] Jack Sondergaard: I think, better check
[23:12:33] Ina Centaur: lol >.<
[23:15:33] Jack Sondergaard: oh I remember, it was another movie with Jackie Gleason
[23:15:41] Jack Sondergaard: The Hustler
[23:17:09] Jack Sondergaard: oops, missed again
[23:17:19] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:17:29] Jack Sondergaard: it was Piper Laurie in The Hustler and Twin Peaks
[23:17:53] Jack Sondergaard: but she reminds me so much of Ida Lupino
[23:18:50] Ina Centaur: (i don't really know the old actors >.<)
[23:19:25] Ina Centaur: ok so requiem for a heavyweight... and the Hustler?
[23:21:56] Jack Sondergaard: Jackie Gleason was in both
[23:22:29] Jack Sondergaard: probably his best 2 movies
[23:22:56] Jack Sondergaard: I used to have an uncle who was a lot like Gleason
[23:23:55] Jack Sondergaard: he test piloted early helicopters and the B36, the big bombers used by SAC
[23:24:51] Jack Sondergaard: he loved to play pool and had a photo on the wall of the pool room of the Trintity explosion taken from the air
[23:25:00] Jack Sondergaard: he took the photo
[23:25:14] Jack Sondergaard: Trinity
[23:25:18] Ina Centaur: cool
[23:25:59] Jack Sondergaard: I think I will watch a movie now, checked 3 out from the library
[23:26:42] Ina Centaur: me too. i still have to rewatch the Mel Gibson version of Hamlet
[23:26:59] Jack Sondergaard: I bet that's good
[23:27:13] Ina Centaur: hehe. i remember it was ok ;-)
[23:27:22] Ina Centaur: on 8/8... will hold auditions for inworld production of Hamlet
[23:27:26] Ina Centaur: http://hamlet.inacentaur.com
[23:28:27] Jack Sondergaard: I think I will get Apocalypto this week
[23:28:55] Ina Centaur: ?
[23:30:51] Ina Centaur: oh cool movie.. just read imdb
[23:31:46] Ina Centaur: gory with a point.
[23:32:28] Jack Sondergaard: I was thinking that I would be neat to act out Atlas Shrugged in SL
[23:33:07] Jack Sondergaard: maybe not all 150 hours of the unabridged version
[23:33:22] Jack Sondergaard: although that could be done as a reading
[23:33:35] Ina Centaur: oh yes it would :-D
[23:33:44] Ina Centaur: mmm literally, rather than metaphorically
[23:33:48] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[23:33:54] Ina Centaur: hehe
[23:34:08] Jack Sondergaard: I rode a trolley just a couple of days ago
[23:34:09] Ina Centaur: up for doing a script version?
[23:34:18] Ina Centaur: oh trolley where?
[23:34:28] Jack Sondergaard: I don't remember
[23:35:38] Jack Sondergaard: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grignano/92/255/28
[23:35:48] Jack Sondergaard: I think there
[23:36:09] Jack Sondergaard: but there are other railroads in SL
[23:36:29] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:36:41] Ina Centaur: have you tried riding the whale-submarine around Cookie?
[23:36:57] Jack Sondergaard: I have ridden a shark
[23:37:18] Ina Centaur: hehe TinTin ;-)
[23:40:17] Jack Sondergaard: I think I will go buy an underwater plot of land and set up my underwater house
[23:41:11] Ina Centaur: hehe
[23:41:27] Ina Centaur: you are welcome to join this community if you'd like ;-)
[23:41:58] Ina Centaur: so you rode around on the TinTin?
[23:42:00] Jack Sondergaard: I already did
[23:42:28] Ina Centaur: cool
[23:42:29] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[23:42:32] Ina Centaur: so i guess you saw the underwater bit
[23:42:41] Ina Centaur: the octopus.. and semi-garden
[23:43:00] Jack Sondergaard: the shark used to be near my house, I could swim over to it
[23:43:06] Ina Centaur: still in need of more work though
[23:43:15] Jack Sondergaard: is there one near here?
[23:43:21] Ina Centaur: much of the island is in stasis
[23:44:17] Ina Centaur: one of the things i'll setup eventually... ETA for the tintin
[23:44:19] Jack Sondergaard: oh, this is waterfront
[23:44:32] Ina Centaur: the tintin takes around 4 minutes to circulate
[02:15:56] [IC-furniture] 1-prim Ornate Bookshelf with Books and Vases: Touched.
[02:23:21] Kal Ketsugo: /kiss kyliane
[02:23:56] Kal Ketsugo: /kiss kyli
[02:24:03] Kal: /me gives Kyliane a big kiss.
[09:29:57] Object: Touched.
[09:29:57] Object: Touched.
[14:23:00] Ngaio Miles: Was it something I was going to say?
[14:23:05] Phorkyad Acropolis: Hi Ngaio
[14:23:12] Ngaio Miles: Hi...
[14:23:29] Phorkyad Acropolis: we are testing out vice chat here
[14:23:33] Ngaio Miles: eh, sorry for disturbing you. I'll go.
[14:23:33] Phorkyad Acropolis: er voice
[14:23:37] Phorkyad Acropolis: no not at all
[14:23:39] Ngaio Miles: ...I did wonder...
[14:24:10] Phorkyad Acropolis: and I gesture as I am wont to do
[14:24:24] Ngaio Miles: may I listen, even if I don't have voice?
[14:24:31] Phorkyad Acropolis: I dont think so...
[14:24:39] Ngaio Miles: ah. Never mind.
[14:24:44] Phorkyad Acropolis: I mean I dot think it works that way?
[14:24:54] Ngaio Miles: Deity Only Knows.
[14:25:01] Phorkyad Acropolis: do you have the new client verson that allows talk?
[14:25:21] Ngaio Miles: I've been offline for a week, so I'll no doubt have to upgrade
[14:25:36] Phorkyad Acropolis: well it does work...if you machine can keep up...
[14:25:45] Phorkyad Acropolis: Foster ison my older laptop and that lags a bit
[14:25:55] Ngaio Miles: ...If I can keep up, it'll be a mircle!
[14:26:08] Ngaio Miles: Vista and Sony Vaio, thankyouverymuch.
[14:26:09] Phorkyad Acropolis: miraces can happen in SL!
[14:26:21] Phorkyad Acropolis: and how are you "academic" if I may ask?
[14:26:32] Ngaio Miles: Pffft, good question...
[14:26:41] Phorkyad Acropolis: pffft sounds like an air leak...
[14:26:46] Ngaio Miles: Does working on a doctorate count?
[14:26:53] Phorkyad Acropolis: oh lordie yes
[14:27:04] Phorkyad Acropolis: and you have my symathies
[14:27:05] Ngaio Miles: well, if there's an air leak, I must be an airhead...
[14:27:15] Phorkyad Acropolis: not if you are working on adoctorate
[14:27:19] Ngaio Miles: Sympaties I will need.
[14:27:22] Phorkyad Acropolis: may ask what field and where?
[14:27:33] Ngaio Miles: Um. UK, and records management.
[14:27:35] Phorkyad Acropolis: sympatico sympaties
[14:27:39] Phorkyad Acropolis: ok
[14:27:55] Ngaio Miles: are you inside here, or just invisdible?
[14:27:56] Phorkyad Acropolis: years ago : theatre in CA
[14:28:05] Phorkyad Acropolis: er california
[14:28:22] Ngaio Miles: ah, that explains it
[14:28:30] Phorkyad Acropolis: the Drahma researcher oart?
[14:28:34] Phorkyad Acropolis: r even part
[14:28:53] Ngaio Miles: whereabouts, and your academic knowledge
[14:29:08] Ngaio Miles: not many outside the field offer sympathies!
[14:29:16] Phorkyad Acropolis: I may have seen you at the Blue Angel
[14:29:23] Ngaio Miles: You did indeed
[14:29:27] Phorkyad Acropolis: sometimes the doctorate is simply getting through to the end
[14:29:40] Ngaio Miles: alas!
[14:30:01] Phorkyad Acropolis: well we are off to RL dinner
[14:30:13] Phorkyad Acropolis: I am sure I shall run into you again at the Angel
[14:30:16] Ngaio Miles: Ah, goodbye then: thanks for the chat
[14:30:21] Phorkyad Acropolis: sure! later
[14:30:24] Ngaio Miles: Goodbye!
[14:30:26] Foster Cosmos: Goodnight. |
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