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SLChatr: Reverse Chronological Group Transcript for longhouse 2007-08-08:
[16:13:38] ToryLynn Writer: well.. that's not true.. I counted Sunday and Saturday...
[19:02:32] Ina Centaur: hi jack!
[19:02:39] Jack Sondergaard: hello
[19:02:46] Ina Centaur: caught up to chapter 7?
[19:03:17] Jack Sondergaard: no, I didn't see an announcement of a discussion tonight
[19:03:49] Jack Sondergaard: so I've been reading and watching movies today
[19:03:52] Object: Touched.
[19:04:09] Ina Centaur: lol.... well it'd go a chapter-a-day until august 30 ;-)
[19:04:16] Ina Centaur: hi nakaima, doug
[19:04:26] Doug Halderman: Hi
[19:04:30] Jack Sondergaard: oh, OK
[19:04:32] Nakaima Oh: hi:)
[19:04:34] Ina Centaur: hi byron
[19:04:42] Byron Balatron: hello
[19:05:59] Ina Centaur: hmmmm... did you guys get to read chapter 7?
[19:06:15] Nakaima Oh: Y
[19:06:32] Doug Halderman: No, I am just here to observe.
[19:07:34] Ina Centaur: hmm... well, i guess i'll try to jog your memories if you've read it (though if not recently)
[19:08:13] Ina Centaur: chapter 7: The Exploiters and the Exploited ... juxtaposes the two classes, and one finds that the traditional exploiter is actually the exploited...
[19:08:43] Ina Centaur: hi harman
[19:08:58] Harman Mayo: hi Ina
[19:09:14] Ina Centaur: so, we are just starting out discussion of chapter 7..... now ;-)
[19:09:31] Harman Mayo: good almost on time for a change
[19:09:38] Harman Mayo: me i mean
[19:09:41] Ina Centaur: one thing i find interesting, in the early part of this chapter was Conway's decision to not sell his rails to Taggart -- even though he'd offer the best price
[19:09:45] Harman Mayo: not the discussion
[19:09:57] Ina Centaur: (hehe, good job, Harman ;-) )
[19:10:21] Ina Centaur: why do you think Conway refuses to sell?
[19:10:36] Ina Centaur: (and would rather sell to the bunch of other low-bidders)
[19:12:20] Nakaima Oh: It seems mystereous here. I think as we see that C does not become inner circle we see how he functions
[19:13:24] Nakaima Oh: The main thing I find interesting in this chapter is Rand character technique. It is so out in the open it's easy to study.
[19:14:13] Ina Centaur: hmm... i think Conway's reaction might have to do with his own realization of ownership and property
[19:14:22] Ina Centaur: not sure what you mean by inner circle...
[19:14:35] Nakaima Oh: R, F and galt
[19:14:45] Nakaima Oh: D too ultimately
[19:14:57] Ina Centaur: oh yes, it's interesting that Conway's the guy left out of the Gulch
[19:15:23] Ina Centaur: i wonder why he's the one left out... was he meant to be a tragic figure?
[19:15:24] Nakaima Oh: why would she do that? Conway is between the two groups somehow
[19:15:52] Ina Centaur: ok.. so harman and naka.. you've both read it (iirc)
[19:15:55] Nakaima Oh: He's good but maybe not good enough?
[19:16:17] Ina Centaur: ... so, in the end, there's a passage where dagny or some character recounts Conway and pities him for just being a man who broke by himself but wasn't found by Galt
[19:16:31] Harman Mayo: yep
[19:16:34] Ina Centaur: (and jack... meh... these words are vague enough to not be spoilers ;-P )
[19:16:56] Ina Centaur: hmm not good enough?
[19:17:25] Jack Sondergaard: I'm not worried about having the plot spoiled, my memory isn't that good
[19:17:58] Ina Centaur: i think it might have to do with publicity. his indiction was done in private meeting of the Nat'l Railord Alliance... Galt appears only hooked in by the general news and Eddie's babblings
[19:20:50] Nakaima Oh: In this chapter you see Rand's technique for characterization. Even here I think we can find C in the middle.
[19:21:23] Nakaima Oh: A good example is the conversation between D and Nealy.
[19:21:44] Ina Centaur: yes nealy: muscles is core to getting all things done >.<
[19:21:53] Ina Centaur: (man w/o mind...)
[19:22:07] Nakaima Oh: Notice how he is described. He is on the low end. R, F and galt on the high end. C in the middle.
[19:22:53] Nakaima Oh: A more subtle writer might not make this so obvious. Here you can study the technique.
[19:23:07] Nakaima Oh: Because it is right out in the open.
[19:23:47] Ina Centaur: hmm what do you mean by low end vs high end, Nakaima?
[19:23:54] Ina Centaur: (hi simeon)
[19:24:05] Simeon Gateaux: hello..
[19:24:23] Simeon Gateaux: just followed the teleport to see where i would end up
[19:24:27] Ina Centaur: (we are continuing our discussion of Atlas Shrugged with Chapter 7)
[19:24:42] Nakaima Oh: the bad guys are all soft and ugly. The good guys are all gorgeous. Poor c is in between . no so buttery as nealy but no blue eyes lie F.
[19:24:43] Ina Centaur: (for august, we are doing a month-long readathon and discussion daily at 8PM.. .a chapter a day for each day of august ;-P )
[19:25:09] Ina Centaur: oh yes, Rand's usage of character appearances...
[19:25:11] Simeon Gateaux: well since i have not read it...i guess i won't be much help
[19:25:29] Ina Centaur: welll, she does describe him as solid. a man who's worked hard and fought battles to arrive at his current state
[19:25:58] Nakaima Oh: Yes, but he doesn't make D go all weak in the knees. :)
[19:26:35] Ina Centaur: lol!
[19:26:48] Ina Centaur: but there are other men who don't make D go weak in the knees who are let into the Gluch though...
[19:26:51] Ina Centaur: *Gulch
[19:27:21] Harman Mayo: hmm - an interesting litmus test
[19:27:38] Harman Mayo: if D goes weak - you're in - lol
[19:27:41] Nakaima Oh: True. I'm still thinking about exactly how C functions in the novel. Everything is deliberate even if the writer doesn't know it.
[19:28:24] Nakaima Oh: Actually if he had hit her, it might have worked.
[19:28:44] Ina Centaur: why would hehit her?
[19:29:09] Nakaima Oh: Kidding. Here strange sex life seems to have a lot of that going on.
[19:29:24] Ina Centaur: lol >.<
[19:30:06] Harman Mayo: yeah
[19:30:14] Ina Centaur: harman, btw, i think that litmus test is fail-proof.. given the 36 inhabitants of the valley at least
[19:30:31] Harman Mayo: one almost thinks the book was Rands answer to peyton place
[19:31:30] Ina Centaur: peyton place?
[19:32:26] Jack Sondergaard: an old prime time soap opera
[19:32:58] Ina Centaur: lol.. so i guess you mean Rand's love is necessary to enter the Gulch?
[19:35:20] Nakaima Oh: I thought the scene in the cafe was well done. The mystery could be felt there.
[19:36:18] Nakaima Oh: That whole who is JG bit was deepened with the fountain of youth
[19:36:35] Harman Mayo: yeah
[19:36:55] Ina Centaur: it's curious that a bum would be the one who tells them that
[19:37:16] Nakaima Oh: pretty spooky. :)
[19:37:29] Ina Centaur: (oh, and incidentally... you often find a lot of bum's who call themselves John Galt's... especially near large universities)
[19:38:14] Ina Centaur: ultimately speaking though, Rand actually promotes sacrifice... or a sort --- destroy what you created, if its purpose doesn't suit you.
[19:38:25] Ina Centaur: so.. that's perhaps the road those bums traveled down...
[19:38:37] Nakaima Oh: This probably echoes the big bum scene
[19:38:50] Ina Centaur: bum scene?
[19:39:08] Nakaima Oh: Often her destroying stuff seems more like "Okay for you. I'm taking my ball and going home."
[19:39:27] Nakaima Oh: Oh, the big on the train later. Actually I don't remember exactly where.
[19:41:08] Ina Centaur: the abandoned train?
[19:41:41] Nakaima Oh: Sorry, I'm re-reading, so while I remember stuff in the future sometime my memory is fuzzy. ")
[19:41:43] Ina Centaur: Rand is more than taking though.. she promotes destroying --- cleansing, like the great rain/flood in the bible..
[19:42:26] Ina Centaur: hmm ok..
[19:43:05] Ina Centaur: well another event of note... the Gov/State Science Institute's setting up Rearden Metal with vague threats and disapprovals....
[19:43:06] Jack Sondergaard: one wonders what she would have done in SL
[19:43:17] Ina Centaur: only to end up offfering to buy it at "unlimited governmental funds"
[19:43:44] Ina Centaur: Rearden refuses the offer because he knows that Rearden Metal is good ... what do you think he means by that?
[19:44:47] Nakaima Oh: Too good for the evil socialists to get their buttery fingers on? :)
[19:44:59] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:45:19] Ina Centaur: hmm but what about the setup?
[19:45:21] Harman Mayo: no - he knows they will just sit on it - rather than use it
[19:45:29] Ina Centaur: Rearden is aware that the SSI would make things incredibly hard for him
[19:45:43] Ina Centaur: why does he choose to "battle" them?
[19:45:59] Nakaima Oh: Again in this chanpter Rand is lining up the bad guys (sometime like straw me) here's is evil gov control of science.
[19:46:51] Nakaima Oh: Because they work for the gov they won't do their jobs. Instead they'll keep innovation down.
[19:47:33] Nakaima Oh: R as one of the movers will not let that happen
[19:47:34] Ina Centaur: why do you think Rand views the gov as evil, though?
[19:47:58] Ina Centaur: ok, so R believes that his product is good enough that it'd beat the gov/SSI no matter what shiat they say about it
[19:48:10] Harman Mayo: yep
[19:48:21] Ina Centaur: but stil... why is it that gov attracks the " evil" workers?
[19:48:25] Jack Sondergaard: she believed in very limited government
[19:48:29] Harman Mayo: he's overly confident - again
[19:49:08] Harman Mayo: government by definition is parasitic
[19:49:34] Nakaima Oh: There is probably a pyschological and a philosophical answer. Why do people go nuts over socialism? :)
[19:50:16] Doug Halderman: Government controlled industry is always less efficient than privately held industry.
[19:50:33] Harman Mayo: unless the government is facist
[19:50:44] Jack Sondergaard: they think if just given the right chance, socialism would solve all our problems
[19:50:45] Doug Halderman: Socialism is always less efficient.
[19:51:05] Jack Sondergaard: it has to do with incentives
[19:51:15] Doug Halderman: Even facist government control is less efficient.
[19:51:21] Ina Centaur: hmmm
[19:51:22] Jack Sondergaard: you get the results you reward
[19:51:27] Nakaima Oh: Rand would agree with Doug.
[19:51:52] Doug Halderman: Selfishness makes capitalism work.
[19:52:09] Nakaima Oh: You have read her!
[19:52:17] Doug Halderman: A long time ago.
[19:52:21] Ina Centaur: ah, the virtue of selfishness ;-)
[19:52:24] Harman Mayo: i disagree - witness the efficiency of the fascist regime in aagermany - very efficient - just not very moral
[19:52:37] Ina Centaur: aagermany, care to elaborate?
[19:52:40] Doug Halderman: In the long run it is not efficient.
[19:52:48] Harman Mayo: Germany
[19:52:55] Harman Mayo: cat helping me type
[19:53:07] Doug Halderman: In the long run it crumbles.
[19:53:11] Jack Sondergaard: Hitler hated socialism
[19:53:13] Harman Mayo: true
[19:53:30] Harman Mayo: hate only motivates for so long
[19:54:01] Doug Halderman: I think the purpose of the book is to show that self interest is a virture in business.
[19:54:27] Nakaima Oh: I agree but also in Life I think she's saying.
[19:54:31] Ina Centaur: yes, doug.. but that's just one of its purposes .. imho ;-)
[19:54:42] Jack Sondergaard: the invisible hand that directs supply and demand
[19:54:51] Ina Centaur: (hi tory)
[19:55:05] ToryLynn Writer: (hey ina)
[19:55:07] Doug Halderman: the invisible hand is "self interest".
[19:55:25] ToryLynn Writer: (I'm still back in chapter 5, so I'm just here to listen)
[19:55:52] Ina Centaur: (oh btw tory, chapter 7 has an answer to your question/supposition that Frisco did all that San Sebastian stuff just to help Dagny.)
[19:56:28] Ina Centaur: hmm self interest applies, really, only to the individual...
[19:56:30] ToryLynn Writer: (/me sighs... now I"ll have to start zooming through... school started today, so I have been busy)
[19:56:36] Ina Centaur: suply and demand is actually a holistic thing, though...
[19:56:58] Ina Centaur: you notice that in A.S., they always mention "the common good" ..but never the "individual good"
[19:57:20] Nakaima Oh: the bad guys you mean?
[19:57:35] Ina Centaur: they take this norm, this average, that represents people.. but no one really actually is. (it's kinda how they say there's an average of 31.2 students per public school classroom in california..)
[19:57:49] Ina Centaur: (the 31.2th student doesn't exist! o_O hehe)
[19:58:01] Doug Halderman: Isn't that the real tension of the book? Common good (socialism) with Individual good (capitalism)?
[19:58:02] ToryLynn Writer: (lol)
[19:58:06] Ina Centaur: so, supply and demand seems similar to this holistic statistic
[19:58:36] Ina Centaur: yes, that's one of tensions, doug ;-)
[19:59:32] Nakaima Oh: But remember this is novel so the game is fixed. Things work out the way the writer wants them to.
[19:59:55] ToryLynn Writer: (gotta go..I'll catch up on the website)
[20:00:15] Doug Halderman: Me too, thanks everyone.
[20:01:23] Ina Centaur: yup.. fixed game..
[20:01:45] Ina Centaur: well, and another thing i noted... seems Orren Boyle is much more devious/evil than Taggart >.,
[20:01:51] Nakaima Oh: An interesting question is why does it work in this novel?
[20:02:06] Ina Centaur: he machinates both the death of Conway's Phoenix-Durango, and makes impossible for Taggart to service the needed regions
[20:02:43] Ina Centaur: oh, well, in the novel we're in this controlled world of the author... and she attempts to make it real, but ultimately, can throw in any deux ex machina she wants, as long as it's more or less well introduced
[20:03:29] Nakaima Oh: Yes, but here you can see all the machinery but you still feel moved (at least the first time through)
[20:03:55] Nakaima Oh: This is a book that makes you want to run out and build a railroad.
[20:04:21] Jack Sondergaard: I do build railroads, model ones that is
[20:04:43] Nakaima Oh: cool. You should pujt in some rand action figures. :)
[20:05:15] Jack Sondergaard: I've thought of trying to model a scene from this novel
[20:05:49] Nakaima Oh: R metal tracks.
[20:06:52] Ina Centaur: lol!
[20:06:57] Jack Sondergaard: I could get some carbon nano-rod composite, that would be like Reardon metal
[20:07:04] Ina Centaur: yes a tiny avatar of jon galt/brad pitt.. and angelina jolie/dagny ;-P
[20:07:17] Ina Centaur: lol jack >.<
[20:07:27] Ina Centaur: (hi blundergroins)
[20:07:50] Blundergroin Snoats: peace and grace Ina, all . .
[20:07:52] Ina Centaur: yes, it would be fun to do a machinima on atlas shrugged ;-)
[20:08:13] Ina Centaur: i've thought about buying a sim to build Galt's Gulch on..
[20:08:17] Ina Centaur: ;-P
[20:08:35] Jack Sondergaard: someone has actually done a model railroad using superconducting magnets
[20:09:03] Jack Sondergaard: yes, look at what the goreans have done
[20:09:48] Ina Centaur: yes, superconductors are definitely a motive source ;-)
[20:10:17] Jack Sondergaard: you could even have a phantom mountain hiding the valley
[20:10:36] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:10:38] Ina Centaur: yes..
[20:10:46] Ina Centaur: sculpted terrain
[20:12:20] Ina Centaur: hehe well..
[20:12:36] Jack Sondergaard: a fully scripted steel mill be be exciting
[20:12:48] Ina Centaur: when everything fails, and when James runs away to his retreat, Dagny takes the ball -- she offers to bear full weight of the calamity on her own
[20:12:48] Jack Sondergaard: would be
[20:13:49] Ina Centaur: why is Dagny so ... undefeatable?
[20:13:56] Ina Centaur: why is she willing to risk all that ?
[20:14:30] Nakaima Oh: In a way it frees here up. She get more control with the JG line.
[20:15:01] Nakaima Oh: No James etc to mess with
[20:15:35] Ina Centaur: yeah, but james had already run away..
[20:15:38] Nakaima Oh: Also, the movers are just like you noble?
[20:16:01] Nakaima Oh: I mean like you know noble :)
[20:16:22] Nakaima Oh: THe mover would take stuff on to themesleves
[20:16:37] Nakaima Oh: typeing skill declining
[20:16:47] Harman Mayo: hmm = maybe it's dagny's own hubris that makes her take it on
[20:17:09] Harman Mayo: although it's very true to form - she always did step into power voids
[20:17:51] Nakaima Oh: also if hubris wouldn't the gods need to slap her down?
[20:18:17] Ina Centaur: hmm, but Dagny knows her abilities... for one, she doesn't undertake to re-engineer the bridge, and lets Rearden do that ;-)
[20:18:36] Ina Centaur: lol why slap her down?
[20:19:06] Nakaima Oh: I think that's what hubris means isn't it? You get too big for your britches and god smacks you?
[20:19:13] Harman Mayo: classical response to hubris
[20:19:33] Blundergroin Snoats: Daedulus
[20:20:00] Blundergroin Snoats: whoever got too close to the sun and melted his wingwax had hubris
[20:20:35] Ina Centaur: hehe
[20:20:38] Ina Centaur: icarus
[20:20:48] Nakaima Oh: Oh, I see, Ina was making a Rand sex joke>:)
[20:21:01] Ina Centaur: lol >.<
[20:21:11] Ina Centaur: was i? i think you brought up the slap-down thing.. nakaima ;-P
[20:21:19] Nakaima Oh: D says, "Oh god. god!"
[20:21:44] Ina Centaur: (i'm sure that they're all non-religious, and just use the phrase in its common usage)
[20:22:01] Harman Mayo: i'mnot sure i grok that
[20:22:25] Nakaima Oh: We were taking earlier about how hitting D seems to be a big part of her sex life
[20:22:46] Blundergroin Snoats: what's the 'common' or "lower case g" use of god?
[20:22:55] Harman Mayo: oh - must have missed that in the barrage of IM's - sorry
[20:23:26] Ina Centaur: lol nakima >.<
[20:23:30] Jack Sondergaard: I think the Greeks started that
[20:23:31] Ina Centaur: yes, that's Rand's SM for you >.<
[20:23:46] Ina Centaur: the whole hitting as an act of love? ;-P
[20:24:01] Blundergroin Snoats: oh golly! oh by george by jingle!
[20:24:08] Nakaima Oh: Not that I think.
[20:24:18] Nakaima Oh: It's strength
[20:24:26] Nakaima Oh: But it's also the fifies
[20:24:36] Nakaima Oh: So the man has to be stronger and the woman has to like that
[20:25:05] Nakaima Oh: But the woman in this case is stronger than almost everyone but those men
[20:25:05] Harman Mayo: hmm - abusive as a requirement for masulinity?
[20:25:33] Nakaima Oh: I'm not sure I would go that far in claiming that for Rand
[20:26:05] Harman Mayo: nor would i feel that's typical of the 50's
[20:26:30] Ina Centaur: lol..
[20:26:42] Nakaima Oh: Norice there's some of that in this chanpter in the conversaion when R first shows up
[20:26:59] Ina Centaur: well, according to Kiz, who dropped by the other day... Rand did say she did not believe a woman should be president due to psychological reasons
[20:27:04] Nakaima Oh: I just go by what I read.:)
[20:27:35] Harman Mayo: true - and Kiz seems very well read
[20:27:59] Nakaima Oh: that seems like something you find out on the web
[20:28:09] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:28:13] Nakaima Oh: I mean something you could look up
[20:28:41] Ina Centaur: yup. i haven't looked that up.. just one of those tangential facts i stored to bring up in occassios like this ;-)
[20:29:02] Ina Centaur: and, again, ... even though Rand's personal life might not be the best... Atlas Shrugged is still a decently good read
[20:29:53] Ina Centaur: ... and then you have yet another one of those authors whom few like as people.... but who have managed to write lasting masterpieces
[20:30:04] Nakaima Oh: It is a good read. Remember later I want to argue it's Potter for older kids. :)
[20:30:55] Ina Centaur: lol >.<
[20:31:02] Ina Centaur: (but older kids read Potter too)
[20:31:16] Nakaima Oh: True.
[20:32:21] Harman Mayo: Potter? whats that?
[20:32:31] Harman Mayo: lol
[20:32:31] Ina Centaur: HP
[20:32:52] Harman Mayo: sorry - my brat side demanded that
[20:32:58] Nakaima Oh: the boy wizard?
[20:33:06] Nakaima Oh: :)
[20:34:43] Harman Mayo: have read all 7 potter books - not impressed at Rowlings skill as a wordsmith - but bow to her mastery of the desires of her audience
[20:35:09] Nakaima Oh: plotting worth studying
[20:35:15] Ina Centaur: indeed ;-)
[20:35:30] Ina Centaur: does Rand have a mastery of the desires of her audience?
[20:35:44] Nakaima Oh: hmmmmm
[20:36:01] Jack Sondergaard: I think so
[20:36:34] Harman Mayo: i don't think so - despite the overwhelming success of Atlas Shrugged
[20:37:01] Jack Sondergaard: at least rational capitalists
[20:37:36] Ina Centaur: what do you think accounts for atlas shrugged's success?
[20:37:56] Harman Mayo: controversy
[20:38:08] Nakaima Oh: Well, on one level it's just that it makes you want to build a railroad when you're done.
[20:38:21] Nakaima Oh: Pumps you up
[20:38:36] Nakaima Oh: Makes you feel like you could be a better person
[20:38:46] Harman Mayo: or that you should be
[20:38:51] Nakaima Oh: then you get to thinking. . . .:)
[20:38:57] Jack Sondergaard: that she dares to go against so many of the socialists in the U.S.
[20:39:35] Harman Mayo: i think she appeals to our longing for a nobler spirit
[20:39:58] Ina Centaur: ah, pandering to desire of the audience?
[20:40:08] Harman Mayo: and our wish that one man CAN make a difference
[20:40:11] Jack Sondergaard: she champions the common workers who produce physical goods
[20:40:29] Harman Mayo: she also denigrates them
[20:40:50] Nakaima Oh: the common workers are definitely muggles
[20:40:59] Harman Mayo: lol - true!
[20:41:02] Blundergroin Snoats: the masses? is it a samizdat?
[20:41:03] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:41:15] Ina Centaur: and the galt, francisco, ragnar... are the professors o_O
[20:41:30] Jack Sondergaard: without the common workers, there would be no economy
[20:41:48] Ina Centaur: yes, she does not exclude the commoners...
[20:41:58] Harman Mayo: omg - Atls Shrugged vs Harry Potter - now there's a discussion!
[20:42:11] Ina Centaur: there's brook and eddie... commoners who understand the virtue of work
[20:42:33] Ina Centaur: hmm we could hold an avatar vs avatar debate on that ;-P
[20:42:37] Harman Mayo: yes the Capitalists need the efforts of the common man
[20:43:07] Ina Centaur: ... avatars would dress up as either book in support of it! :-D
[20:43:21] Ina Centaur: (hm for potter.. would need to figure out which book cover to use to represent the series. hehe)
[20:43:51] Harman Mayo: but that very worker will also turn on his employer in a heartbeat
[20:43:53] Nakaima Oh: Last or first since it's all one long thing?
[20:44:33] Nakaima Oh: My grandfather told me there used to be two way loyalty
[20:44:34] Blundergroin Snoats: all people . . .people who need people . . are the luckiest people in the world .. . . capitalist and 'progressive' alike
[20:45:20] Ina Centaur: explain?
[20:46:04] Blundergroin Snoats: any political system relies on its 'body'
[20:47:08] Ina Centaur: not sure if i follow, blunderg..'
[20:47:56] Blundergroin Snoats: Harman said "Capitalists need the efforts of the common man"
[20:48:27] Harman Mayo: and i stand by the statement
[20:48:45] Blundergroin Snoats: Aand I stand by Harman
[20:49:07] Ina Centaur: yes..
[20:49:10] Ina Centaur: but recall Chapter 7
[20:49:13] Ina Centaur: Neely's statement
[20:49:28] Ina Centaur: (paraphrase) "muscles; that's all that's needed (to build bridges, rails, etc)
[20:50:05] Harman Mayo: foolishness
[20:50:06] Ina Centaur: muscle without brain... just a bunch of commoners... would be unlucky
[20:50:24] Ina Centaur: ( ... similar to the scene of the abandoned train near the end of the novel )
[20:50:43] Blundergroin Snoats: I said "any political system relies on its 'body'"
[20:50:44] Nakaima Oh: It's kind of a strawman, too, though. A steel worker wouldn't say what nealy said.
[20:50:58] Blundergroin Snoats: but the body needs a 'head' too
[20:51:00] Harman Mayo: everything starts with an idea
[20:51:00] Jack Sondergaard: like the human body, the arms and legs feed the brain, and the brain directs the limbs
[20:51:27] Blundergroin Snoats: I stand by Jack
[20:51:58] Blundergroin Snoats: and sit next to Ina; much to my delight
[20:52:00] Harman Mayo: i agree completely
[20:52:27] Harman Mayo: it's similar to Covey's notion of interdependence
[20:52:29] Jack Sondergaard: the problems start when the head gets too big, or the body becomes self-destructive
[20:52:48] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:52:53] Ina Centaur: yes
[20:52:57] Ina Centaur: when the body goes into chaos
[20:53:06] Ina Centaur: and the immune system goes wacked
[20:53:06] Jack Sondergaard: a very delicate balance
[20:53:08] Ina Centaur: AIDS
[20:53:22] Ina Centaur: Rand's dystopia in modern med terms: AIDS of the nation o_O
[20:53:34] Blundergroin Snoats: what about when the body gets too big (steroids) and head gets too self destructive (more steroids)
[20:53:56] Nakaima Oh: So if you're the knee, can you work your way up the leg if you read Rand?
[20:55:15] Ina Centaur: lol..
[20:55:30] Harman Mayo: not gonna follow that line of thought - mature sim or no
[20:55:38] Ina Centaur: i think there's a story in either this book or Fountainhead that has parts of the body go beserk
[20:55:40] Jack Sondergaard: yes, everyone wants to think for a living, but few get that far
[20:55:57] Ina Centaur: lol nakai.. just realized the double entendre..
[20:56:02] Harman Mayo: i disagree, Jack
[20:56:15] Harman Mayo: i think most people would rather not think
[20:56:27] Ina Centaur: why not?
[20:56:42] Harman Mayo: it's unfamiliar territory
[20:56:55] Harman Mayo: and so outside of their comfort zone
[20:57:07] Jack Sondergaard: I shouldn't have said 'everyone"
[20:57:36] Ina Centaur: lol..
[20:57:42] Ina Centaur: yes, people prefer to blank out
[20:57:44] Nakaima Oh: It's a matter of valuing what people do. Look at the amzing system that is the plumbing in your house. Someone put it in.
[20:57:56] Harman Mayo: i did
[20:58:06] Nakaima Oh: Think about that cabinet that is so clevery put together.
[20:58:19] Jack Sondergaard: civilization is held together by plumbing
[20:58:19] Harman Mayo: am far to versed with my houses plumbing - lol
[20:58:29] Nakaima Oh: How in the world did all those leaves get raked?
[20:58:53] Nakaima Oh: You ask for no pickles that usually is what you get.
[20:58:58] Harman Mayo: our society relies upon each contributing to the whole
[20:59:05] Harman Mayo: but in different ways
[20:59:50] Harman Mayo: i think that's where the society of Atlas Shrugged is failing
[21:00:17] Harman Mayo: people believe in "Equality"
[21:00:27] Harman Mayo: which is a null concept
[21:00:55] Harman Mayo: people cannot beequal if society as a whole is to survive
[21:02:24] Jack Sondergaard: equality has a number of definitions: ability, opportunity, speech
[21:02:24] Ina Centaur: hmmm
[21:02:34] Ina Centaur: elitist, harman?
[21:02:42] Harman Mayo: not at all
[21:03:21] Harman Mayo: I've emptied bedpans for a living
[21:03:41] Harman Mayo: a neccessary task - to the one using the bedpan
[21:04:10] Harman Mayo: it's not a great way to live - but essential nonetheless
[21:04:13] Blundergroin Snoats: doesnt society's apportionment of traits/talents roughly equal its needs?
[21:04:21] Harman Mayo: no
[21:04:34] Harman Mayo: i know a janotor who is a mensan
[21:04:50] Jack Sondergaard: a civilized society needs all kinds of workers
[21:04:52] Blundergroin Snoats: is he a happy janitor?
[21:05:02] Harman Mayo: yes he is
[21:05:13] Harman Mayo: so his life is very fulfilling
[21:05:34] Jack Sondergaard: success is doing what fulfills you
[21:05:40] Harman Mayo: and yet he can understand quantum mechanics better than i can
[21:05:41] Blundergroin Snoats: so he helps to make my point
[21:06:26] Blundergroin Snoats: many Mensans lack Steve Jobs vision/drive
[21:06:37] Jack Sondergaard: I do menial labor, but get to listen to audio books and college course podcasts all day
[21:07:07] Blundergroin Snoats: you're a blessed man then
[21:07:20] Harman Mayo: but we need more competent physicists, there are already many competent janitors
[21:07:31] Blundergroin Snoats: most people on earth are rich if they own two coats
[21:08:06] Ina Centaur: yes. each man is his own island..
[21:08:24] Blundergroin Snoats: let no man be an island!
[21:08:39] Blundergroin Snoats: well . . . unless he wants to be
[21:08:55] Nakaima Oh: What I'm wondering is "Is that Pingu on Harman's shirt?" Sorry OT. :)
[21:08:58] Jack Sondergaard: we need more people who can apply math, whether in physics, engineering, materials research, or medicine
[21:09:09] Harman Mayo: well spoken, Blundergroin
[21:09:26] Blundergroin Snoats: ty hm
[21:09:26] Harman Mayo: yes - it's Pingu
[21:10:28] Harman Mayo: and so it is in Rand's society, Jack
[21:11:08] Harman Mayo: they need more people who can see beyond there own corner, and work for the true common good - instead of the common welfare
[21:11:40] Jack Sondergaard: yes, it does no good to do the wrong things more efficiently
[21:11:51] Harman Mayo: exactly
[21:12:17] Harman Mayo: efficiency is doing things right - effectiveness is doing the right things efficiently
[21:12:38] Jack Sondergaard: you have to be able to see the big picture, then where in the details you can help
[21:13:45] Harman Mayo: to quote from the bum in chapter 7 "Man's only talent is an ignoble cunning for satisfying the needs of his body"
[21:13:50] Blundergroin Snoats: a guy that builds the best airplane isnt doing it for the common good . . .but it will serve everyone
[21:14:21] Jack Sondergaard: in a rapidly changing world, more people need to be constantly learning to adapt all their lives
[21:15:06] Harman Mayo: those who cannot adapt are doomed to a life of quiet desperation
[21:15:24] Harman Mayo: or not so quiet - in some cases
[21:17:16] Ina Centaur: brb
[21:17:19] Jack Sondergaard: I watched Syriana today, it has a chaotic plot, but gets you thinking about how the choices you make in your lifestyle have global consequences
[21:19:06] Jack Sondergaard: and even though it presents business in a very un-Rand like way, it has a lot to say
[21:21:10] Jack Sondergaard: educated people need to see all points of view and learn how to apply reason to sort out meaning from that
[21:22:50] Harman Mayo: you i can accept as educated, Jack - you have striven to learn things on your own
[21:23:53] Harman Mayo: unfortunately, most "educated" people are not truly educated - they just study what they're told to
[21:23:58] Jack Sondergaard: I know that there are many things yet to learn, that is the beginning of knowledge
[21:24:11] Harman Mayo: i agree - wholeheartedly
[21:25:43] Jack Sondergaard: it's more important to be taught how to think than what to think
[21:25:46] Harman Mayo: it saddens me to see our schools teaching rote knowledge - and not teach our children critical thinking
[21:26:40] Harman Mayo: wow - that was sernedipitous if ever i've seen it
[21:26:48] Nakaima Oh: Hey, guys this has been fun. Good chapter. Good discussion. It's getting late out her in the castle so I must go. See you all on another night.
[21:27:06] Harman Mayo: ttfn, Nakiama
[21:27:11] Jack Sondergaard: I had a few teachers who could take things like history and make them interesting
[21:27:33] Harman Mayo: yes - there are some very gifted teachers out there
[21:27:49] Harman Mayo: too few, imho
[21:28:20] Harman Mayo: my own father taught flat earth - to make a point
[21:28:26] Jack Sondergaard: unfortunately, I never had a good math teacher, so that's one of the things I am learning on my own
[21:28:48] Harman Mayo: only 2 of his students were capable of proving that the earth isn't flat
[21:29:08] Jack Sondergaard: that's a good way to get them thinking
[21:29:16] Harman Mayo: yes it is
[21:30:14] Jack Sondergaard: well, I better get back to studying for a while, then get some sleep
[21:30:21] Harman Mayo: but he did it his last term before retirement - because he knew that the administration would not approve of the method
[21:31:00] Harman Mayo: ejoy your studies, Jack
[21:31:03] Jack Sondergaard: did they see the point?
[21:31:16] Harman Mayo: unfortunately, no
[21:31:23] Jack Sondergaard: figures
[21:31:37] Harman Mayo: but his students learned - so he accomplished his goal
[21:32:08] Harman Mayo: one of them has even finished his masters in physics
[21:32:16] Jack Sondergaard: it would be a good discussion for SL
[21:32:51] Harman Mayo: and this was the life sciences class - kids who ordinarily only take science classes because they need them to graduate
[21:33:19] Harman Mayo: yes, it would
[21:33:44] Harman Mayo: but i've led us off topic yet again
[21:33:53] Ina Centaur: lol..
[21:34:11] Harman Mayo: i better start behaving or Ina's gonna ban me - lol
[21:34:18] Jack Sondergaard: everything is on topic if you connect it all together
[21:34:40] Ina Centaur: heh.. well, since jack hasn't read the chapter yet and i was afk...
[21:34:48] Ina Centaur: the topic defaulted to open topic ;-P
[21:34:57] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[21:35:26] Harman Mayo: *grins* (and wipes the cold sweat off his forehead as well)
[21:35:35] Ina Centaur: hehe
[21:35:48] Jack Sondergaard: I hope to get caught up in my reading soon, got about 200 pages to go
[21:35:59] Ina Centaur: fun readathon ahead for yer jack ;-)
[21:36:14] Ina Centaur: i'm going to have to call it a night earlier than usual
[21:36:22] Ina Centaur: guess this'd give you guys more time to read ;-)
[21:36:27] Jack Sondergaard: I wish I had it unabridged on my iPod
[21:36:32] Harman Mayo: wish i had it in audio format - it'd give you a way to work and read at the same time
[21:36:52] Ina Centaur: well, if anyone's willing to lend their voice to read, i can record ;-)
[21:37:10] Ina Centaur: or, as jack suggested.. we could act it out O_o hehe
[21:37:23] Harman Mayo: you've heard my voice - not the best choice for that
[21:37:50] Harman Mayo: my voice is tenor - beat when i'm ten or twenty miles away
[21:37:59] Harman Mayo: best*
[21:38:01] Jack Sondergaard: yes, they want a lot of money for it, so I am going to listen to the abridged version as soon as the library transfers it to the nearby branch
[21:38:30] Ina Centaur: hehe..
[21:39:12] Ina Centaur: well, gnite you guys
[21:39:26] Harman Mayo: nite, Ina
[21:39:27] Ina Centaur: chapter 8 tomorrow!
[21:39:37] Harman Mayo: have fun at the auditions
[21:39:38] Jack Sondergaard: good night all
[21:39:39] Ina Centaur: /me *poofs
[21:40:00] Harman Mayo: night, jack
[21:40:20] [SLDonate] DarkGlass Tip Bin: Thank you for your donation, Jack Sondergaard!
[21:40:21] Harman Mayo: time for me to finish my inkster entry - lol
[21:40:38] Jack Sondergaard: good discussion
[21:40:47] Harman Mayo: yes, it was
[21:41:28] Jack Sondergaard: I will be late tomorrow, have to work
[21:41:44] Jack Sondergaard: bye until then
[21:41:44] Harman Mayo: I'm not sure it's working quite as planned - but the discussions have been quite lively nonetheless
[21:41:55] Harman Mayo: ttfn
[21:42:30] Jack Sondergaard: most things don't work exactly as planned, but it 's working anyway
[21:42:37] Jack Sondergaard: bye
[21:42:39] Harman Mayo: very much so
[21:45:52] Harman Mayo: <-- wanders off with a satisfied smile - and a feeling of gratitude for our host
[05:54:44] Meriwether Voom: HEY
[13:32:27] Paggles Whitman: Joy
[13:33:00] Ina Centaur: hi!
[13:33:01] Paggles Whitman: Wow, that's one thick novel
[13:33:06] Ina Centaur: just found out the grid came up lol
[13:33:25] Ina Centaur: yup. about 1000 pages... though much funner to read than typical works of russian authors ;-P
[13:34:03] Paggles Whitman: I should have checked the grid before taking half a day off work, lol
[13:34:18] Paggles Whitman: But who woulda thought, eh?
[13:34:49] Paggles Whitman: I imagine you are in IM hell right about now
[13:35:51] Ina Centaur: heh |
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