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SLChatr: Reverse Chronological Group Transcript for longhouse:
[21:47:20] ToryLynn Writer: We're on top of the big green book on top of Shakspeare's Stables, if you want to come say hi :)
[21:46:59] Calliope Delgado: Hey Tory!
[21:46:47] ToryLynn Writer: HEY SECUNDO! HEY CALLIOPE!!!
[18:06:03] Geo Meek: are you talking to me
[18:05:10] Geo Meek: Hello
[18:04:43] Verum Indigo: hi!
[18:04:33] Verum Indigo: Hey Geo
[11:51:06] Jilly Kidd: i get stuck in the buildings here
[11:51:00] Jilly Kidd: sorry
[11:50:59] Code Tracer: yes
[11:41:53] Multi Gadget v1.52.0: /me by Timeless Prototype
[11:41:53] SignpostMarv has a tendancy to multi-task: SignpostMarv Martin's dspeak v2.6 booting up.
[11:37:24] Rumour Mills: O for a Muse of fire, that would ascend The brightest heaven of invention, A kingdom for a stage, princes to act And monarchs to behold the swelling scene!
[23:28:27] Harman Mayo: ttfn
[23:28:19] Cera Jenkins: See you later!
[23:28:15] Cera Jenkins: I still don't have this virtual reality figured out!
[23:28:08] Harman Mayo: it happens - night
[23:27:54] Cera Jenkins: Oops
[23:27:42] Harman Mayo: she left
[23:27:28] Cera Jenkins: I'm going to bed! Sorry I missed the last part of the discussion. Do you have any further plans, Ina?
[23:25:16] Ina Centaur: nite
[23:25:10] Jack Sondergaard: good night everyone
[23:25:09] Ina Centaur: tc
[23:25:07] Ina Centaur: sure
[23:24:49] Jack Sondergaard: I need to get some sleep, got to work in the morning
[23:24:42] Ina Centaur: tc
[23:24:34] Harman Mayo: ttfn - and thank you
[23:24:31] Jack Sondergaard: it was fun
[23:24:18] Ina Centaur: you too ;-)
[23:24:16] Ina Centaur: totally
[23:24:13] Ina Centaur: yes, thank you
[23:24:08] Ina Centaur: yes, once you know one language, the rest is easy to grasp
[23:23:42] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[23:23:34] Ina Centaur: javascript php
[23:23:28] Ina Centaur: HTML/CSS my "third"
[23:23:14] Ina Centaur: c was my second language
[23:23:05] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:22:41] Ina Centaur: /me really only knows English :-\
[23:22:20] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[23:21:04] Ina Centaur: *mozart
[23:21:02] Ina Centaur: omzart
[23:21:00] Ina Centaur: no he's sing tomino
[23:20:59] Jack Sondergaard: it sounds like Edith Pia
[23:20:47] Jack Sondergaard: it that what you will be singing?
[23:20:39] Harman Mayo: yep
[23:20:36] Ina Centaur: (and a lyrics-less one as well)
[23:20:29] Ina Centaur: yes. there's actually also an english version
[23:19:15] Ina Centaur: actually, has to do with LL being slow in filling sim orders
[23:19:07] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[23:19:06] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I wish my audio didn't skip, but I can tell you can really sing well
[23:18:54] Ina Centaur: new sim... more details announced to sLiterary group
[23:18:33] Ina Centaur: ohh lol. it's a lovely song actually ;-)
[23:18:22] Ina Centaur: and we are moving to a new sim
[23:18:16] Ina Centaur: oh, i was just kidding about the godfather btw
[23:18:05] Harman Mayo: thank you
[23:18:02] Harman Mayo: was lovely, Kain
[23:17:42] Harman Mayo: drat - i wish i'd been here for that
[23:17:16] Ina Centaur: chat is recorded btw in the same place ^.~
[23:17:11] Harman Mayo: wotking on my !@$$# car
[23:17:07] Ina Centaur: ;-P
[23:16:55] Harman Mayo: was having my own fun
[23:16:49] Ina Centaur: had a totally lovely discussion going on about everything from rand to bush to elvis' shoelaces
[23:16:25] Ina Centaur: btw, harman, you missed the fun earlier
[23:16:19] Ina Centaur: not bad
[23:16:08] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[23:16:06] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:15:32] Kain Scalia: Thanks :)
[23:15:27] Jack Sondergaard: awsome
[23:15:23] Kain Scalia: :P
[23:15:18] Ina Centaur: /me claps! :-D
[23:14:13] Jack Sondergaard: OK, I hear you
[23:13:48] Jack Sondergaard: I am on headphones now, so feedback shouldn't be a problem
[23:13:13] Ina Centaur: your voice died
[23:11:16] Ina Centaur: jack, it looks like you're off voice
[23:10:59] Jack Sondergaard: OK, I unplugged my mike
[23:10:59] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[23:10:47] Ina Centaur: testing testing
[23:10:04] Ina Centaur: feedback?
[23:09:59] Ina Centaur: jack..
[23:09:52] Ina Centaur: sure
[23:09:22] Jack Sondergaard: OK, I hear now
[23:09:12] Harman Mayo: never type with brake fluid n your eye
[23:09:03] Ina Centaur: the notecard summarizes some of my personal alternative to ruth ^.~
[23:08:42] Harman Mayo: ow
[23:08:31] Harman Mayo: ywp famn ugly, ruth was
[23:08:08] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:08:02] Ina Centaur: great enterprise of LL
[23:07:50] Ina Centaur: she's the ancestor of all avatars
[23:07:45] Ina Centaur: no... in stance
[23:07:32] Ina Centaur: ruth is kinda like nat taggart's statue
[23:07:26] Ina Centaur: lol now that's mean
[23:07:11] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:07:06] Harman Mayo: yikes - and lagged too
[23:06:38] Jack Sondergaard: OK, brb
[23:06:38] Ina Centaur: not normally.. iirc o.O
[23:06:26] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:06:13] Ina Centaur: harman; you're totally ruthed
[23:05:57] Kain Scalia: You may have tor elog, jack. I can wait for you :)
[23:05:46] Ina Centaur: jack's name is not showing on the list
[23:05:35] Ina Centaur: yes i can hear you.
[23:05:30] Ina Centaur: you missed the interesting stuff
[23:05:23] Ina Centaur: you got in here too late
[23:05:20] Ina Centaur: harman!
[23:05:12] Ina Centaur: squooshing my leg-.-
[23:05:09] Kain Scalia: I don't see the little bubble floating over your head.
[23:04:57] Jack Sondergaard: I did, let me check my voice level
[23:04:51] Ina Centaur: lmfao..
[23:04:50] Ina Centaur: you're sitting on my lap
[23:04:46] Ina Centaur: kain..
[23:04:32] Kain Scalia: jack, you need to activate voice :)
[23:04:15] Ina Centaur: but it looks like cera and jack can't
[23:04:10] Ina Centaur: i can hear you
[23:04:04] Jack Sondergaard: OK, I'm ready
[23:03:55] Kain Scalia: And I'll be singing sotto voce, so it won't be very powerful.
[23:03:51] Ina Centaur: 1 sec
[23:03:50] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:03:42] Kain Scalia: I can only sing a little because it's 1 Am and my neighbors will crucify me.
[23:03:31] Kain Scalia: Alright, turn your voice on.
[23:03:24] Kain Scalia: Yes I do.
[23:03:23] Ina Centaur: Kain, can you sing a bit for us?
[23:03:13] Ina Centaur: it would be interesting to see your POV on the Godfather after you've read it ^.~
[23:03:13] Jack Sondergaard: do you sing opera, Kain?
[23:02:42] Kain Scalia: But for a month and a half, I HAVE to BE Tamino :)
[23:02:38] Ina Centaur: and voice is not one of my instruments :-\
[23:02:33] Kain Scalia: After that, though, I promise you'll pick it up :)
[23:02:31] Ina Centaur: nope. i'm an instrument player :-)
[23:02:27] Kain Scalia: For the next month and a half I am not going to read anything but my school textbooks and Mozart, Mozart, Mozart :)
[23:02:05] Kain Scalia: Not in the list, ina. Have you ever had to sing an opera? :)
[23:01:49] Kain Scalia: And to cnsider how I can run away from the dragon and faint in the first act....and still look heroic.
[23:01:48] Ina Centaur: yes, your saving your mind from a book that might turn out different from your preconception ^.~
[23:01:20] Kain Scalia: My reading material is going to consist on german dialogue :P (Ungh)
[23:01:10] Kain Scalia: I can'[t join you for that next one, I have to memorize Tamino in a month :P
[23:00:59] Ina Centaur: Godfather is actually a capitalist novel
[23:00:43] Jack Sondergaard: how many good capitalism novels are there?
[23:00:37] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[23:00:34] Ina Centaur: next... Godfather
[23:00:29] Ina Centaur: so august was atlas shrugged...
[23:00:20] Ina Centaur: a novel relating to capitalism a month
[23:00:12] Ina Centaur: capitalism
[23:00:10] Ina Centaur: i'm interested in starting a discussion series on...
[23:00:10] Kain Scalia: for a second my Avatar became...horribly disfigured O_O
[23:00:03] Ina Centaur: you know what?
[23:00:02] Kain Scalia: .....
[23:00:00] Kain Scalia: AAAAAAAAAAAAAH
[22:59:44] Ina Centaur: it's similar to belittling rand as glorifying all businesses (even the looter moocher ones)
[22:59:25] Ina Centaur: kain, that's the klitsch interpretation of the godfather
[22:59:23] Jack Sondergaard: yes, the mafia is nothing but looters
[22:58:45] Ina Centaur: you know what -- that's the most accurate caricature of the strikers possible!
[22:58:40] Kain Scalia: No. I don't find treating the mafia as a glorified subject interesting :)
[22:58:34] Ina Centaur: hahahahha
[22:58:22] Kain Scalia: /me has a mental image of Francisco breaking into your office and going "BRAAAAAAAAAIIIINZ"
[22:58:13] Ina Centaur: btw, have you read the Godfather?
[22:58:08] Jack Sondergaard: it's only when they can no longer keep going that they are ready for the Gulch
[22:58:01] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[22:57:59] Ina Centaur: your mind or come with us.
[22:57:51] Ina Centaur: nah. the strikers come at you. give you an offer you can't refuse
[22:57:50] Kain Scalia: remember, he is described as looking thoroughly defeated.
[22:57:41] Kain Scalia: If his spark runs out, I imagine Dan just ..wouldn't really care what happened to him.
[22:57:29] Kain Scalia: Ina, you don't get forced into the Gulch. You have to accept to go there.
[22:57:23] Jack Sondergaard: I don't think so
[22:57:18] Ina Centaur: from planet Inafinity of course
[22:56:58] Ina Centaur: but anyway though... if a man's spark runs out, and the strikers reach him... the man's exempt from the Gulch?
[22:56:45] Jack Sondergaard: what planet are your from?
[22:56:28] Ina Centaur: /me runs 72 hour days typically ^.~
[22:56:21] Ina Centaur: me either
[22:56:09] Jack Sondergaard: I never took that oath
[22:55:42] Jack Sondergaard: I vow never to deprive myself of sleep or to make someone deprive themselves of sleep for me
[22:54:54] Kain Scalia: /me sleep deprivation, yay.
[22:54:50] Kain Scalia: Oh, turn over, not be allowed in, hehe.
[22:54:39] Kain Scalia: Well, for one, aren't they required to make the oath?
[22:54:17] Ina Centaur: btw, kain, what is the condition required for a man to turn over to the Gulch once they get to him?
[22:52:45] Kain Scalia: I got the impression that he was kjust...broken after the fact.
[22:52:44] Ina Centaur: i think dagny reminisces conway somewhere later on after she finds out about the gulch
[22:51:21] Kain Scalia: so, maybe by the time they get to him... there really isn't much of a fire to spark anymore.
[22:51:09] Kain Scalia: To quote.. "he loses the will to fight, and resigns himself to a quiet life of books and fishing. He claims that somebody had to be sacrificed, it turned out to be him, and he has no right to complain, bowing to the will of the majority."
[22:50:40] Kain Scalia: Well, if I recall correctly Dan went into retirement by himself. We don't know what coul dhave happened afterwards since it's never mentioned. Did Francisco approach him? and did he refuse?
[22:48:34] Jack Sondergaard: when I'm in a job, I consider whether I can have a positive influence by staying and trying to make things better, or whether things are so out of sorts with my own values that to keep them I must work elsewhere
[22:48:03] Ina Centaur: --- oh btw, what about Dan Conway? poor guy. no one told him about the Gulch
[22:47:49] Ina Centaur: contrast the strikers, who'd just leave even those that they miss
[22:47:35] Ina Centaur: well, anyway, Dagny in her fallacious state was working on the premise of a positive uncertainty. she doesn't know for sure who's out there, but she's positive enough that there are others out there like her whom she's helping
[22:47:22] Kain Scalia: And if Dagny is not uncertain about one thing, it is herself.
[22:47:13] Kain Scalia: And her love of what Taggart Transcontinental is.
[22:47:08] Kain Scalia: It isn't positive uncertainty because she is not doing any of this for anyone else but herself.
[22:46:35] Kain Scalia: She later realizes it's not a world they created for others, but for themselves. When she realizes this, she realizes she can create it no matter where she is, because she is herself.
[22:46:31] Ina Centaur: hmm, assuming that there may be others out there who can --- positive uncertainty again
[22:46:04] Ina Centaur: the world they'd fought to create
[22:46:00] Kain Scalia: And she knows that men are capable of this. That at one point they were, and that there may still be others out there who can.
[22:45:51] Ina Centaur: she sees that if the world were to be abandoned, it would be like a waste of nat's work
[22:45:42] Kain Scalia: No. She sees what is good in herself.
[22:45:32] Ina Centaur: she sees too much of the world that's still good
[22:45:23] Kain Scalia: because if she fails, at least then she would KNOW
[22:45:13] Kain Scalia: That is why she comes back.
[22:45:11] Kain Scalia: She must be completely convinced that this is indeed the best way.
[22:45:00] Kain Scalia: It is that for what she is fighting for. For the Nat Taggarts of the world. She does not realize that the BEST way to fight for them is to shrug. Not yet.
[22:44:39] Kain Scalia: No. She knows the validity of Nat Taggart's work, his struggle and his dream, and his legacy.
[22:44:11] Ina Centaur: well, the fact that she never questions the validity of what she's fighting for -- it's assuming that the uncertain must be positive!
[22:43:58] Kain Scalia: /me laughs!!!
[22:43:56] Kain Scalia: I would comfrot the man and tell him that unlikely things may happen in the last housr of his life, but I will not guarantee it and I will not forge reality to him.
[22:43:47] Jack Sondergaard: sorry, I'm not into shoelace fetishes
[22:43:04] Ina Centaur: similarly, i guess you can say you wouldn't care much about that random dying man with the random wish of touching elvis' shoelace
[22:43:02] Kain Scalia: It is not as much a sense of positive uncertainty as an unwillingness to abandon a fight.
[22:42:51] Jack Sondergaard: same thing with Hank and his steel
[22:42:32] Ina Centaur: yes, back to the w.n. again
[22:42:22] Kain Scalia: I fsomething is precious and valuable enough, sometimes you have to exhaust every possibility until you know you did everything that was possible to save it.
[22:41:49] Jack Sondergaard: yes, she wouldn't give up until every possible thing had been done to save it
[22:40:55] Kain Scalia: As one would encourage a dying person to live up to the very last moments possible.
[22:40:26] Kain Scalia: She felt so much reverence for the memory of Nat Taggart that she felt it would be to betray it to abandon it without trying to fight to its final conclusion.
[22:39:57] Kain Scalia: /me nods.
[22:39:51] Jack Sondergaard: she didn't yet buy into the strike
[22:39:45] Kain Scalia: But she never questions whether what she is fighting for is still worth defending, at least outside of Galt's Gulch while the looters are in control.
[22:39:02] Kain Scalia: Yes, she has deduced the existence of John Galt. But seeing only the symptoms--- AND her perception of reality not being fully accurately realized (that is: it is missing some of the key philosophical elements to discern what is going on), she sees the effects of what he is doing as those of a destroyer, a vampire.
[22:38:58] Ina Centaur: she flew the plane pursuing Quentin/Galt... knew that Galt took Quentin, as he took everyone else from her
[22:38:57] Jack Sondergaard: yes, but she still wants to save the railroad
[22:38:33] Ina Centaur: after Galt flies her out of the Gulch, she knows the destroyer
[22:38:00] Jack Sondergaard: she wants to stop the destroyer
[22:37:57] Ina Centaur: this is Rand btw
[22:37:54] Ina Centaur: *pseudointellectual
[22:37:46] Ina Centaur: she still struggles
[22:37:44] SignpostMarv Martin: /me poofs
[22:37:38] SignpostMarv Martin: toodles peeps
[22:37:36] Ina Centaur: oh, and also, after she escaped Galt's Gulch...
[22:37:33] SignpostMarv Martin: I'm going to go rest my weary bones in my nice comfy bed, blame Ina for tping me into an intellectual discussion without giving me the opportunity to fire up my mind first :-P
[22:37:27] Ina Centaur: yes, but as the novel progressed, it became obvious where they were going?
[22:36:18] Ina Centaur: /me whispers loudly POSITIVE UNCERTAINTY o.O
[22:36:10] Kain Scalia: Well, at the beginning of the novel she hasn't lost ALL of her good people, but she sees them slowly dropping out, becoming more apathetic.
[22:35:40] Ina Centaur: why does Dagny assume that there's enough disheartened to fight for?
[22:35:29] Ina Centaur: curious..
[22:35:27] Ina Centaur: lol
[22:33:58] Kain Scalia: By the by.. if you're familiar with Terry Pratchett's Granny Weatherwax? People often say I am very much like her. That'll give you an idea >_>
[22:33:25] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[22:33:13] Kain Scalia: You'd think I'd give up the GOOD one? ;D
[22:33:03] Kain Scalia: I am left handed ;)
[22:32:54] Ina Centaur: meh, then you'd be that much more useless to her ^.~
[22:32:42] Kain Scalia: -e
[22:32:38] Kain Scalia: Goodness knows I would give my right arm to have Dagney as a co-worker or a superior.
[22:32:25] Ina Centaur: yes
[22:31:17] Jack Sondergaard: no problem, it was entertaining
[22:31:17] Kain Scalia: I think she thought she could, perhaps, energize those that were disheartened- nto incompetent, but disheartened.
[22:30:59] Ina Centaur: perhaps change their POV, but not their nature
[22:30:52] Ina Centaur: i don't think dagny ever thought she could change people, per se
[22:30:45] Kain Scalia: I do apologize for monopolizing at times. I guess I tend to suffer from verborrhea
[22:30:14] Kain Scalia: Not as much as she thought she could have led TT without James being too much of a drag.
[22:30:02] Ina Centaur: oh lol.. sometimes these discussions go on till like 3 am
[22:30:00] Jack Sondergaard: 3 1/2 hours
[22:29:52] Ina Centaur: so, would you say Dagny thought the whole time she could change James?
[22:29:51] Kain Scalia: Sun Tzu.
[22:29:44] Kain Scalia: Goodness gracious, three hours?
[22:29:43] Jack Sondergaard: In a battle, always take into account that the opponent will modify their attack against to in response to your attack.
[22:29:41] Ina Centaur: yes, that's basically the orthodox analysis of dagny
[22:28:24] Kain Scalia: Correct.
[22:28:06] Cera Jenkins: afk
[22:27:37] Kain Scalia: Because she was steadfast in believing in her own capacity, perhaps optimistically beyond its real scope. Sure, she was amazingly capable, but she needed to consider the point that she had no control to change those who willingly laid down to die.
[22:26:54] Ina Centaur: well, if your POV is stilted, then you could be doing something you think is an investment, but is really a sacrifice.
[22:26:49] Cera Jenkins: And yet she left the valley...
[22:26:16] Kain Scalia: Hugh Akston told her precisely that.
[22:26:14] Ina Centaur: yes. a penny for a dollar is a sacrifice. a mother selling her hat so that her son would starve and the orphans won't is a sacrifice.
[22:26:11] Kain Scalia: If you have not correctly interpreted reality, then you have made a mistake and must check your premises.
[22:25:49] Kain Scalia: It is only a sacrifice if you give up a high value for a low value or no value.
[22:25:47] Ina Centaur: but what if your POV is wrong?
[22:25:40] Kain Scalia: It is an investment.
[22:25:36] Kain Scalia: It isn't a sacrifice if you are working to gain a higher goal, Ina.
[22:25:26] Ina Centaur: she fights for the world she believes in, and would risk her life doing so
[22:25:15] Ina Centaur: dagny is "self sacrificing" in a positive way...
[22:24:59] Ina Centaur: right, that's the orthodox POV
[22:24:54] Kain Scalia: She believes that through hre competence she can outstrip their mistakes and pull everything by her own self. Unfortunately she has not considered what happens when all the other competent men are willing victims: They work against her competence, even without wanting to do so, because those they sanction make it their priority.
[22:24:08] Kain Scalia: Her mistake is one of ignorance: She has never really consider the power that the looters have when victims fgive them sanctins.
[22:23:45] Kain Scalia: No, Dagny is driven in the optimism of her own competence.
[22:23:37] Cera Jenkins: Would you say she's an optimist?
[22:22:59] Ina Centaur: dagny's driven by positive uncertainty
[22:22:25] Ina Centaur: the lint might be mel gibson's so that maybe you did earn that cool million honestly
[22:22:17] Kain Scalia: I would say my faovrite character is Dangy. She is the kind of woman I have always wanted to befriend or meet. Though in my life I have only met two like her.
[22:22:13] Ina Centaur: your belief that the piece of shoelace in your pocket might be Elvis'
[22:22:04] Ina Centaur: Rearden's belief that the w.n. might survive
[22:21:58] Ina Centaur: positive uncertainty
[22:21:56] Kain Scalia: /me ponders.
[22:21:55] Ina Centaur: yes, so ultimately dagny's position was proven wrong -- nevertheless, it's what drives you on
[22:21:27] Cera Jenkins: my favorite character was Hank Rearden--and how he develops over the course of the book
[22:20:08] Ina Centaur: positive uncertainty.
[22:20:04] Ina Centaur: what was it?
[22:20:03] Ina Centaur: it's... hrm
[22:19:58] Ina Centaur: she fought on not knowing what the future would bring -- what sort of new bills Taggart would enact; what sort of new scheme the State Science Institute would unfold etc
[22:19:49] Cera Jenkins: I admire Dagny for her fight, but in the end she realizes she was fighting for the wrong side.
[22:19:33] Ina Centaur: *sorry mis-stated
[22:19:24] Ina Centaur: she fought on not knowing the situation, etc.
[22:19:10] Ina Centaur: Dagny
[22:19:09] Ina Centaur: let's go back to what Blvd mentioned right before she left
[22:18:55] Jack Sondergaard: no, just walking into walls
[22:18:52] Ina Centaur: positive vs negative uncertainty
[22:18:46] Ina Centaur: so anyway
[22:18:43] Ina Centaur: lol
[22:18:37] Kain Scalia: He is dancing the Second Life Lag Mambo. We all do at one point or another.
[22:18:22] Ina Centaur: o.O
[22:18:09] Ina Centaur: jack?
[22:17:56] Ina Centaur: /me drumrolls
[22:17:49] Jack Sondergaard: OK, here goes
[22:17:41] SignpostMarv Martin: my intelligence and my sense of humour cross paths when I'm sleep deprived :-P
[22:17:40] Kain Scalia: Well, he *did* ask. :)
[22:17:39] Ina Centaur: lol you two are a cute couple
[22:17:37] Cera Jenkins: haha
[22:17:30] Ina Centaur: o.O
[22:17:17] SignpostMarv Martin: lol
[22:17:14] Kain Scalia: /me slaps Sign accross the face (just kidding)
[22:17:09] Kain Scalia: This one.
[22:17:04] Kain Scalia: And if you do it again, I'll simply ignore you. One cannot build anything with things that lack substance.
[22:17:04] SignpostMarv Martin: :-P
[22:17:03] SignpostMarv Martin: "what is the sound of one hand clapping"
[22:16:42] Kain Scalia: But I assure you, you are wasting time if you think you can distract us. I am Jesuit-trained and logic-bound. Let us resume the conversation unless Signpost has any more formless abstractios he wishes to throw out?
[22:16:20] Cera Jenkins: I am not aware of the point, for sure.
[22:16:16] SignpostMarv Martin: probably
[22:16:06] Kain Scalia: Why use an analogy and then not use it? It sounds to me that you aren't aware of the point you are trying to make.
[22:15:58] SignpostMarv Martin: I regularly fix things without realising it
[22:15:38] SignpostMarv Martin: whether i can comprehend touching ominiscience and whether i can touch omniscience are two different things
[22:15:22] Kain Scalia: I can play at twisting analogies too.
[22:14:57] Kain Scalia: Then you would be an orangutang, and wouldn't be capable of thinking it. So much for your excercise.
[22:14:41] SignpostMarv Martin: if my arm is longer than the half step, i can touch the wall without being right next to it
[22:14:40] Kain Scalia: And that's the point. But that doesn't eliminate the distance. the facts are still the facts.
[22:14:21] Kain Scalia: You CAN'T touch the wall and be consistent with the analogy.
[22:14:15] Kain Scalia: [23:13] You: If you are always getting half way there, you are always getting half way there, that's it. Sorry, Curly, no can do :)
[22:13:50] Kain Scalia: If you are always getting half way there, you are always getting half way there, that's it. Sorry, Curly, no can do :)
[22:13:22] SignpostMarv Martin: they are reaching out and touching the wall
[22:13:19] Kain Scalia: I don't think you have an answer for everything as much as you think you sound smart about everything.
[22:13:18] Jack Sondergaard: some decisions are neither right or wrong, like what color of shirt to wear today. Others are both good and bad, like saving one child and letting the other drown, but it's clear that good and bad will happen in that case, and clear that shirt color in not a moral decision
[22:13:17] SignpostMarv Martin: when people say they are certain of something,
[22:13:09] SignpostMarv Martin: Kain, it does
[22:13:01] Kain Scalia: Yes, you can touch the wall like that. Too bad that physical phenomena doesn't work the same way for allegories and similes and so on and so forth. IT is rather vague, nebulous pseudo-intellectualism.
[22:12:57] SignpostMarv Martin: MUHAHAHAA
[22:12:51] SignpostMarv Martin: btw, as you may have guessed, I'm one of those annoying dickwads that has an answer for everything :-P
[22:12:22] SignpostMarv Martin: i can reach out with my hand and touch the wall before my feet reach the wall. A small part of me grasps a small part of omniscience sufficient enough to gain a sufficient degree of certainty
[22:11:25] Kain Scalia: The wall is omniscience. you will never reach it. But that doesn't eliminate the facts, as you wish to do .
[22:11:20] SignpostMarv Martin: you would never be omniscient, but you can be close enough
[22:11:01] Kain Scalia: You will never be omniscient, if that is what you mean.
[22:11:00] SignpostMarv Martin: although that would mean you are 100% certain Kain :-P
[22:10:38] SignpostMarv Martin: putting aside the maths of if the half step is lower than your minimum scale of measurement, you are effectively there
[22:10:34] Kain Scalia: Unfortunately, Zeno's paradox is completely unrelated to this.
[22:10:16] SignpostMarv Martin: you'll get closer and closer each time, but never reach the wall
[22:10:09] Kain Scalia: Are you certain of that, Marv?
[22:10:03] SignpostMarv Martin: Kain: the scale of certainty would probably be similar to moving towards a wall at half the distance between yourself and the wall
[22:09:47] Blvd Ochs: I don't think I could do that.
[22:09:42] Blvd Ochs: Even though she knew she was doomed, she kept fighting for what she believed in.
[22:09:15] Blvd Ochs: My favorite character is Dagny Taggert.
[22:08:41] Kain Scalia: The term certainty is often used to describe knowledge without the possibility of doubt. This is omniscience. It is an improper use of the term. Certainty could have no meaning when applied to an omniscient being, since it wouldn't have the capacity for doubt. It only has meaning when applied to human beings. Its meaning allows the possibility of error, but the contextual lack of doubt.
[22:08:23] Kain Scalia: It is based on one's current knowledge. It is possible to be certain, and still be wrong. Human beings are not omniscient. They can form conclusions, but there is the possibility of error. Humans need knowledge, though, and need a basis for accepting knowledge as true. They cannot live constantly doubting every piece of knowledge. To survive, they must be able to accept knowledge as true, and act accordingly.
[22:08:06] Kain Scalia: When all knowledge supports the conclusion, and none denies it. If one has a valid reason for doubting something, one should not be certain. If one, for instance, knows there are facts that are unknown, and important in validating the knowledge, one should not be certain. If, however, one believes that all of the relevant information is known, and it all points to the knowledge being true, one should be certain. Certainty is contextual.
[22:07:47] Kain Scalia: Certainty is the acceptance of a fact without doubt. It is a level of confidence attributed to particular knowledge. We are certain when we know something is true, and have no doubts. The term "degrees of certainty" is used to describe how close we are to being certain. Certainty, though, is the upper limit. It is the state where no more doubts exist.
[22:07:46] SignpostMarv Martin: so if "I" to choose to take the left fork, "I" also chose to take the right fork
[22:07:43] Ina Centaur: and negative uncertainty -- why do this; why do that; there's no way to know whether the world would blow up an hour later!
[22:07:26] Kain Scalia: Yes, and you also haven't been born.
[22:07:24] Blvd Ochs: Ugh.
[22:07:22] Ina Centaur: there's positive uncertainty -- why not; things could have been that way
[22:07:14] SignpostMarv Martin: according to the paralel worlds theory, I've done both
[22:07:11] Ina Centaur: kain, note that there are various "breeds" of uncertainty
[22:07:10] Kain Scalia: Hm, i seem to have two Kantians in this group.
[22:07:05] SignpostMarv Martin: Also,
[22:06:49] SignpostMarv Martin: Kain: uncertainty. it might not :-P
[22:06:33] SignpostMarv Martin: /ethics
[22:06:33] Kain Scalia: Ina, if you believe you cannot be certain of anything, then why do you get out of bed every morning? After all, your getting up might just cause the universe to implode. it might not be certain, but it just might.
[22:06:27] SignpostMarv Martin: morals are a quantum state. an event can exist in both poles
[22:05:58] SignpostMarv Martin: MUHAHAHAA
[22:05:50] SignpostMarv Martin: :-P
[22:05:48] SignpostMarv Martin: Lots of people disagree
[22:05:43] Kain Scalia: Too bad for their family. Maybe next time they will teach someone that initiating force against someone with intent to kill is not exactly going to get you far.
[22:05:43] SignpostMarv Martin: G.W. Bush decides to invade Iraq. He believes he is right.
[22:05:25] Ina Centaur: and for absolutes, there is nothing else.
[22:05:18] Kain Scalia: whether I am incapable of percieving them, or not, theya re there.
[22:05:18] Ina Centaur: for him, there are only absolutes
[22:05:18] SignpostMarv Martin: their family disagree
[22:05:14] Ina Centaur: marv, you must note that Kain is our dearest Randian evangelist.
[22:05:14] SignpostMarv Martin: you kill a murderer. you do something you believe is right
[22:04:54] Ina Centaur: what do you think of the mother and her two sons?
[22:04:51] Kain Scalia: No, Signpost. Right and wrong exist, whether you are incapable of perceive them or not.
[22:04:43] Ina Centaur: so anyway, as you can see, i'm not through with my point of uncertainty
[22:04:38] SignpostMarv Martin: Kain: right and wrong is a matter of perspective
[22:04:27] Ina Centaur: stilted reality again
[22:04:15] Kain Scalia: Ina: He was a burglar. The woman had run out to call for help and he caught her in the door.
[22:04:09] Ina Centaur: why do you always assume that it's the damsel in distress.. when it could be the other case?
[22:03:59] Ina Centaur: you'd wonder why he was strangling the old woman
[22:03:54] Kain Scalia: Yes there is, Signpost. There is right, and there is wrong, no in betweens.
[22:03:43] SignpostMarv Martin: there is never a single side to a good vs evil argument
[22:03:36] Kain Scalia: My cousin had to deal with this. And she shot the man through the temple.
[22:03:25] SignpostMarv Martin: to the minority who define the "evil" person as "good" would then define you as "evil"
[22:03:11] Kain Scalia: Be good, and spare the killer the bullet?
[22:03:05] Kain Scalia: A man is about to strangle an elderly woman. You cannot stop him from whree you are. You have a gun. You can only see his head. What do you do.
[22:02:59] SignpostMarv Martin: if the majority defines you as "good" then killing someone they define as "evil" makes you "good"
[22:02:38] SignpostMarv Martin: Blvd: context
[22:02:27] Blvd Ochs: How does killing someone make you good?
[22:02:23] SignpostMarv Martin: atheltic performance of myself vs weight of son
[22:02:22] Kain Scalia: I shudder to think who is bad, then :)
[22:02:13] Kain Scalia: Does saving a deranged murderous psychopath make you 'good'?
[22:02:10] Ina Centaur: note the (etc)
[22:02:01] SignpostMarv Martin: equidistance does not equate to equal success rate
[22:02:01] Ina Centaur: well, you don't have time to save both. reality's stilted.
[22:01:43] Ina Centaur: (etc)
[22:01:40] Ina Centaur: both sons are equally far away from you
[22:01:40] Blvd Ochs: I should get them both, since I saved Charles Manson :)
[22:01:27] SignpostMarv Martin: Ina: you'd save whichever one had the highest success rate for being saved within the given time period
[22:00:44] Blvd Ochs: Save the good save the well.
[22:00:36] Kain Scalia: In which case the observance to it is a duty you have voluntarily accepted.
[22:00:26] Ina Centaur: case 2. suppose her younger son has a terminal illness, and she knows he wouldn't survive another year
[22:00:22] Kain Scalia: Ah, kjack, there you have a pre-established agreement :)
[22:00:13] Ina Centaur: case 1. suppose the words above summarize the situation completely.
[22:00:12] Ina Centaur: who would she save in:
[22:00:05] Jack Sondergaard: suppose it was my job to gaurd the lives of prisoners, and I had agreed to risk my life to do so and given my word
[22:00:04] Kain Scalia: I would not lift a finger to help him.
[21:59:57] Ina Centaur: suppose a mother has 2 sons. one younger, one older. both are drowning.
[21:59:45] Kain Scalia: And who will help you when he tries to slice your neck? :)
[21:59:44] Blvd Ochs: You would be the one who wanted to watch him die?
[21:59:40] Ina Centaur: yes, we are essentially back to the old parable
[21:59:19] Jack Sondergaard: I can think of a case in which I might
[21:59:17] Blvd Ochs: Yes.
[21:59:17] Ina Centaur: /me pokes marv back
[21:59:16] Blvd Ochs: If i was driving down the road, and saw Charles Mason ihanging off a cliff I would try to help him.
[21:58:57] SignpostMarv Martin: /me wonders what Ina dragged him into
[21:58:49] Kain Scalia: I am merely taking your statement and applying it to a logical event. If you had to save a deranged killer, would you?
[21:58:30] Kain Scalia: You said saving someone is a knee jerk reaction. And you are to make us believe you would definitely save Charles Manson or someone similar?
[21:58:16] Ina Centaur: (ahem of what standard?)
[21:58:12] Ina Centaur: yes, and a string of degrees and recommendations from all the top officials
[21:57:59] Jack Sondergaard: he had a degree in metalurgy
[21:57:39] Blvd Ochs: He wasn't a stranger he read about in a book. He was part of his everyday life.
[21:57:18] Blvd Ochs: What does my saving Charles Manson have anything to do with it? I don't know him. Readon knew this kid.
[21:57:08] SignpostMarv has a tendancy to multi-task: SignpostMarv Martin's dspeak v2.6 booting up.
[21:56:50] Jack Sondergaard: loud music has tempted me to become a psychopath and a murderer more than once
[21:56:30] Kain Scalia: I didn't. I asked you if you would save charles manson. And the wet nurse is hardly a 'young boy'. He is a man after college.
[21:55:53] Blvd Ochs: I don't see how you can compare a young boy still growing with Charlie Manson
[21:55:45] Kain Scalia: I believe that being a public nuisance is hardly comparable with being a depraved psychopath and murderer.
[21:55:43] Ina Centaur: well, i think in the slag heap, it was dangerous enough that Rearden risked his own life for that of a dying man
[21:55:19] Blvd Ochs: If you have a jerk neighbor that plays music too loud, and then they wipe out in front ofg your house on a bike, would you help?
[21:55:03] Kain Scalia: Then I guess that could tell about your subconscious values.
[21:54:40] Blvd Ochs: Without prior thinking yes.
[21:54:27] Jack Sondergaard: I used to be a security guard, it was written in my job description that I was expected to risk my life, if need be, to protect the life and property of my client, I accepted that contract as my value, and would have given my life, if the need arose, to keep my word
[21:54:20] Blvd Ochs: Especially someone who just saved your ass.
[21:54:18] Kain Scalia: Blvd, would you save Charles Manson's life? :)
[21:54:01] Blvd Ochs: I dunno. I think saving someone is a knee jerk reaction.
[21:53:19] Kain Scalia: Rearden valued the wet nurse, he had seen him grow from a leech into a man who had started his journey into morality. He was trying to save also what the wet nurse represented: The fact that no matter how hard you crush it, there is always a chance for the human spirit to rectify itself .
[21:53:05] Blvd Ochs: Ah, the leaky boy.
[21:52:54] Ina Centaur: *nurse
[21:52:52] Ina Centaur: hi blvd, wn = wet nures
[21:52:45] Blvd Ochs: What is WN short for?
[21:52:25] Ina Centaur: ok, so what about Rearden's risking his own life to save the w.n.?
[21:51:57] Jack Sondergaard: it depends on how much you value the other person's life
[21:51:41] Kain Scalia: He never mentions Fatalism- which is what you are implying- at all. It isn't The Unfortunate Tale of Young Werther.
[21:51:22] Kain Scalia: Rearden is shocked that these looters, these thugs, have killed and sacrificed a young man who was finally starting to become a moral person.
[21:51:16] Ina Centaur: would it be worthwhile to save the life of a dying man at the cause of yours?
[21:50:59] Kain Scalia: Rearden never mentions, at any time, that he doesn't want to believe that reality is so cruel.
[21:50:58] Jack Sondergaard: did he promise the man he would live and get well, or did he just say "fight to live"?
[21:50:49] Ina Centaur: and, as he was struggling to save the w.n.... risking his own life... he believed in it
[21:50:37] Kain Scalia: Just because you want something to happen, it doesn't mean it is going to happen.
[21:50:23] Ina Centaur: he wanted to believe the w.n. would live
[21:50:11] Kain Scalia: He'd be a teleevangelist.
[21:50:05] Kain Scalia: :)
[21:50:02] Kain Scalia: Rearden doesn't believe in something that is impossible, Ina. If he did, he wouldn't make steel.
[21:49:45] Jack Sondergaard: keep it simple, tell the truth
[21:49:43] Kain Scalia: /me just noticed.
[21:49:41] Ina Centaur: to believe in something that facts prove to be impossible
[21:49:40] Kain Scalia: Oh dear goodness, two hours. *laughs*
[21:48:26] Ina Centaur: given his grief, his push, etc
[21:48:16] Ina Centaur: given his wounds; given the fact that Rearden is no moron (even if not medically educated)
[21:48:15] Kain Scalia: It is something that Rand's characters lack.
[21:48:10] Kain Scalia: To believe that would be to subscribe to a malevolent universe viewpoint.
[21:47:59] Ina Centaur: it's implied
[21:47:48] Kain Scalia: Where does he state that?
[21:47:46] Ina Centaur: that it would not kill a boy who had finally learned how to see
[21:47:38] Ina Centaur: Rearden wanted to believe that reality were not so cruel
[21:47:21] Ina Centaur: yes, you've mentioned -- struggle to take that last gulp of life for the sake of life itself.. but also:
[21:47:21] Kain Scalia: Well observed, Jack.
[21:47:11] Jack Sondergaard: but the w.n. still had life, that was certain, just not clear how long
[21:47:02] Ina Centaur: and, you can also say that Rearden had multiple goals in telling the w.n. that he'd live if he fights
[21:46:46] Kain Scalia: The potential is there, so why not lie first, and make up for it later with possibilities?
[21:46:27] Ina Centaur: well, that's the case with reality. there is always this uncertainty.
[21:45:57] Ina Centaur: the uncertainty is what i find similar between the 3 cases, the lint, shoelace, and Rearden/w.n.
[21:45:48] Kain Scalia: So you as long as no-one is certain or uncertain of anything, it's ok?
[21:45:27] Ina Centaur: in the cases i mentioned, there is uncertainty in the commodity of trade
[21:45:17] Ina Centaur: the fat woman has eyes, and can see for herself
[21:45:12] Kain Scalia: Yes, counterfeit reality for their favour.
[21:45:11] Ina Centaur: no, not quite
[21:45:01] Ina Centaur: that the fat woman should be told that, no, she is really beautiful, etc.
[21:44:24] Kain Scalia: Isn't what you are asking to do witht he shoelace what Lilly Rearden is asking people to do with the concept of beauty?
[21:44:04] Kain Scalia: Think about your example with the shoelace...
[21:43:50] Kain Scalia: wait, Ina, I had a bit of a memory flash.
[21:43:36] Ina Centaur: Rearden's overall point was: Value life, persist no matter how futile it may be
[21:43:16] Ina Centaur: ok, i think that is correct
[21:43:12] Jack Sondergaard: life was his highest value
[21:43:05] Kain Scalia: He cast off no one who believed in life.
[21:42:53] Ina Centaur: (not said in context of their romance, but rather the world's last hold on heroes)
[21:42:35] Ina Centaur: (and other remaining heroes)
[21:42:20] Ina Centaur: ok, yes, i suppose that's also a minor echo of the struggle he and Dagny were going through
[21:42:18] Jack Sondergaard: yes, he was saying "value life, no matter how long or short it may be"
[21:41:30] Kain Scalia: rearden's statement to him essentially boils down to this: "I value you, I love you as a human being, be with me, you are not alone, fight to hold on to these last few moments of love, of value, of respect so you can go in kindness, in virtue, in beauty, I'm here with you until the end."
[21:41:21] Ina Centaur: he believed in it because the situation prompted for it
[21:41:11] Jack Sondergaard: if I remember correctly, when I listened to it, I thought he might survive up until he actually died
[21:41:01] Ina Centaur: Rearden believed in the more positive of the 2 either-or's
[21:40:49] Ina Centaur: w.n. is going to die ; w.n. is not going to die.
[21:40:41] Ina Centaur: lace came from elvis ; lace came from nougert
[21:40:26] Ina Centaur: every case can be broken down into 2 possibilities
[21:40:18] Ina Centaur: it's the uncertainty
[21:40:13] Ina Centaur: ok, so here we go -- rearden does not know for sure that the w.n. would die
[21:40:08] Kain Scalia: Rearden said it because no one can predict the future
[21:39:58] Kain Scalia: Rearden, not being a doctor, can't really tell except that he's badly wounded. However, I can only tell that the shoelace came in a book, and that is ALL i can tell.
[21:39:27] Kain Scalia: Do you mean, did he realize the full extent of the wounds? He may have had an inkling, but who knows? He isn't a doctor.
[21:39:24] Jack Sondergaard: hi gugu
[21:39:23] Ina Centaur: the w.n. was saying he'd die; rearden was attempting to go against that absolute
[21:38:54] Ina Centaur: hmm, actually, the question is -- did Rearden realize that reality would not allow the w.n. to survive his wounds?
[21:37:40] Kain Scalia: He was giving him something to focus him onto the rpesent, even if it was to end up reassuring Rearden that he was dying. It's not a very good analogy in this case. For Rearden, even one more minute of prolongued existence through clinging is worth more than a thousand promiceses.
[21:37:38] Ina Centaur: he keeps on telling him to fight -- when it's as futile as getting lace from mel gibson
[21:37:29] Ina Centaur: but, his reaction, however
[21:37:26] Ina Centaur: yes, Rearden does give him his ultimate sanction -- that the w.n. learns what an absolute is
[21:37:08] Cera Jenkins: Also, telling the w.n. that he, Rearden, valued the w.n.'s life.
[21:37:03] Ina Centaur: suffered major blood loss (etc)
[21:36:58] Ina Centaur: the man was shot in the chest or something. bleeding wound. left in a slag pit. crawled all the way up to the top
[21:36:29] Jack Sondergaard: he was telling the man to strive to live
[21:36:27] Ina Centaur: he tells the wetnurse to fight on -- even though the physical damage should have made it clear that whatever fight would have been as futile as believing that lint came from Elvis
[21:35:59] Ina Centaur: that he kept on telling/believing that the wet nurse would survive?
[21:35:47] Ina Centaur: what do you think of Rearden's reaction?
[21:35:42] Jack Sondergaard: that depends on whether you really believe in heaven, if you don't then don't promise it
[21:35:40] Cera Jenkins: yes
[21:35:35] Kain Scalia: Vividly.
[21:35:23] Ina Centaur: remember the episode?
[21:35:15] Ina Centaur: wet nurse's death
[21:35:12] Ina Centaur: ok, anyway, let's go back to A.S.
[21:34:55] Kain Scalia: How is that any different than saying, Believe in my holy book, and MAYBE you'll die and go to heaven?
[21:34:48] Ina Centaur: no, i am simply not eliminating things that could have been
[21:34:46] Jack Sondergaard: why is a dying man less deserving of truth than anyone else?
[21:34:44] Kain Scalia: Believe in my worldview, my mysticism, and you'll be happy. MAYBE it's Elvis' shoe, and if you look at it this way, you will be happy.
[21:34:31] Kain Scalia: Yes. You are forfeiting and creating false expectations.
[21:34:13] Ina Centaur: is there actually a lie?
[21:34:10] Kain Scalia: Yes, and even then it makes no sense. I will simpy say "Here, this is an old sholenace. This is all I have, and I cannot tell you anything more than how I came upon it."
[21:33:54] Ina Centaur: emphasis: "now, i dunno its origins.. but..."
[21:33:30] Ina Centaur: please read what i have said from 22:31 forward
[21:33:16] Kain Scalia: You are selling him peace. At waht cost? A lie.
[21:33:06] Kain Scalia: The man wants the shoelace. it is a value he is after. You are giving it to him. You are giving him something which he considers valuable, and you get the 'good feeling' of having helped him. It is a trade. It IS a sale.
[21:32:48] Jack Sondergaard: If you deal in lies, people learn to not believe in anything you say
[21:32:37] Ina Centaur: we're talking about a piece of shoelace, and a dying man's last wish.
[21:32:29] Ina Centaur: kain, we're not talking about selling right now.
[21:32:18] Kain Scalia: So I'll go and make myself rich by selling random collections of chemicals. Who knows, maybe one of thsoe mixtures will contain the cure. It is a potential outcome.
[21:31:52] Kain Scalia: I will not tell someone I have the cure for AIDS because there the potential that I might find it. Sure, one to a billion chances, but hey, it's a potential outcome!
[21:31:46] Ina Centaur: "now, i dunno its origins.. but it sure does look old enough... and who knows... maybe... jsut maybe... it might have been on Elvis' shoe"
[21:31:31] Ina Centaur: this is what i'd say to the man: "you know what; sometimes, i believe in fate... this is just gotta be more than wicked randomness that your dying wish is to touch a shoelace and that i just happen to have this old shoelace that someone used as a bookmark in my pockets!"
[21:31:12] Kain Scalia: Ina: Probability is not truth, merely a potential outcome.
[21:30:52] Sharchi Qinan: or objectivism
[21:30:51] Kain Scalia: But the thing remains: At the moment of that man's death, you did not know that those shoelaces were Elvis'. You do not countefeit.
[21:30:47] Ina Centaur: kain, what of the real *potentially* possible truth?
[21:29:59] Kain Scalia: Truth is the truth, when you stop recognizing it to alleviate suffering you're no better than Christianity, Islam or any other mysticism.
[21:29:51] Ina Centaur: you = shoelace possesor
[21:29:47] Ina Centaur: you do not know this.
[21:29:45] Ina Centaur: BUT
[21:29:44] Ina Centaur: suppose that is reality
[21:29:38] Ina Centaur: you'd arrive somewhere in time... on Elvis' shoe
[21:29:30] Ina Centaur: and now, if you were to travel back thru time with this piece of shoelace and venture to all the places it's been to
[21:29:18] Ina Centaur: it actually came in the guise of a bookmark of atlas shrugged
[21:29:12] Kain Scalia: There is no god. Reality is not a god. Reality simply is what it is.
[21:29:11] Ina Centaur: accidentally
[21:29:08] Ina Centaur: that you purchased the shoelace from a garage sale
[21:29:01] Ina Centaur: it turns out
[21:29:01] Cera Jenkins: haha
[21:28:59] Ina Centaur: now, here is the thing
[21:28:56] Sharchi Qinan: i would say you may get to meet elvis in about 20 mintues
[21:28:33] Ina Centaur: "and, there is no afterlife. so... so long... you had a good life; could have found it for yourself; why me to have to change your reality for you?"
[21:28:24] Kain Scalia: I will say to the man: "I do not have that which you desire."
[21:28:23] Cera Jenkins: That seems harsh.
[21:28:02] Ina Centaur: so, you would say to the dying man, "I am sorry I cannot help you; you will die without the one thing you desire; reality is my God."
[21:27:55] Jack Sondergaard: we are all dying, just some of us sooner than others
[21:27:42] Sharchi Qinan: agreed
[21:27:34] Kain Scalia: Telling him it is Elvis' shoelace is robbing him of the truth.
[21:27:28] Kain Scalia: Why does the dying man deserve something other than reality?
[21:27:20] Kain Scalia: Yes, because you are counterfeting reality.
[21:27:15] Ina Centaur: yet, what about for the dying man?
[21:27:08] Ina Centaur: Rand would say that it's BAD to just take that out of your pocket to give the man his dying wish by conjuring the story that you somehow have elvis' shoelace in your pocket
[21:26:52] Kain Scalia: You are giving people nothing for something.
[21:26:40] Kain Scalia: IT is bad. Placating on falsehoods is always bad. No matter what case it is.
[21:26:33] Ina Centaur: you happen to have a piece of old shoelace in your pocket
[21:26:27] Ina Centaur: that he wishes to touch the shoelaces of Elvis
[21:26:21] Ina Centaur: he tells you his dying wish
[21:26:18] Ina Centaur: suppose you encounter a dying man
[21:26:14] Sharchi Qinan: artificial value stemming from false promises
[21:26:12] Ina Centaur: all right, here's a similar case, different context.
[21:25:46] Kain Scalia: Looters will. Traders won't.
[21:25:45] Sharchi Qinan: the worlds power structure is based on such activity
[21:25:42] Kain Scalia: but quite honestly? no self-respecting trader would sell something whose origins and veracity he is not certain of.
[21:25:31] Ina Centaur: for something like this, would placating the certain emptiness in fans, that voracious need to possess a part of the celeb... by claiming said lint really belongs to said celeb... be bad?
[21:25:29] Kain Scalia: If you yourself don't know the origins.
[21:25:06] Kain Scalia: Then there is no logical point in selling it as such. Merely sell it as 'probably from so and so, but not verifiably so'
[21:24:44] Ina Centaur: the point is moot verifying whether it *really* came from said celeb
[21:24:34] Ina Centaur: lint's origin really can't be traced
[21:24:29] Ina Centaur: basically, i'm saying this..
[21:24:21] Ina Centaur: /me smacks sharchi
[21:24:11] Sharchi Qinan: i runa popular counselling service specialising in lint grief, business is good
[21:23:52] Kain Scalia: You can't TRADE if you're LOOTING with deception.
[21:23:47] Kain Scalia: [22:23] Ina Centaur: the moment that the possessor realizes that it's not that prized lint or whatever -- then we have grief.
[21:23:42] Kain Scalia: That is because there can NEVER be any value on that which is predicated on a lie.
[21:23:24] Ina Centaur: the moment that the possessor realizes that it's not that prized lint or whatever -- then we have grief.
[21:23:03] Kain Scalia: If the value doesn't exist int he physical object, why can't sellers sell disembodied celebrity?
[21:22:53] Ina Centaur: it exists in the possessor's belief.
[21:22:47] Ina Centaur: and not even in its origin, really
[21:22:43] Ina Centaur: but, the value does not exist in the physical object
[21:22:39] Kain Scalia: If he is selling it and it is true that it is, then he is being an honest tradesman. If it isn't, he is being a dishonest tradesman, giving something under the pretense of another thing to earn something honest is not trading, it is merely a more sophisticated looting: looting through deception.
[21:22:28] Ina Centaur: it is an abstract piece... meaning, it could be a sliver of a nail (assume DNA detection is not in play) or a piece of old skin
[21:22:13] Jack Sondergaard: just look at the tabloids, what they sell isn't much better than celebrity lint
[21:21:53] Ina Centaur: no, the dealer is selling a piece of a hero, which the fan desires.
[21:21:31] Kain Scalia: But what the dealer is selling is not lint, but the particular origin of that lint.
[21:21:25] Cera Jenkins: Hah, imagine the lint market.
[21:21:24] Ina Centaur: if it's authentic, then that's just great. but, if it's not, and as long as the fan believes it is, he's happy
[21:21:21] Sharchi Qinan: you have aroused my desire for celebrity lint
[21:21:09] Ina Centaur: the origins of the lint -- could really be anywhere
[21:20:56] Ina Centaur: well, what i'm trying to say is that... this whole lint business is absurd
[21:20:33] Sharchi Qinan: you think so? nobody likes being taken for a sucker, so most would appreciate the honesty
[21:20:30] Kain Scalia: Is the dealer selling it under the pretense that is authentic?
[21:20:26] Jack Sondergaard: yes, there is always the danger of exposure, and in the future disillusioning all the lint buyers
[21:20:07] Ina Centaur: the fan would have reacted negatively demanding that it be sold.
[21:19:59] Ina Centaur: now, here's the other case: if the dealer were to say to the fan, "i cannot sell this to you until i have verified that it is 100% really from said celebrity"
[21:19:43] Kain Scalia: It behooves the trader to be honest about what he trades. It is in his own self interest. Nobody buys frmo someone who is exposed as a cheater.
[21:19:26] Ina Centaur: lol
[21:19:22] Sharchi Qinan: caveat emptor
[21:19:18] Kain Scalia: Oh. Well, no, that is violating the virtue of honesty. Which is one of the virtues of ethics, which is created through the process of creating a rational, logical morality.
[21:19:11] Ina Centaur: however, he got what he believed he purchased.
[21:19:03] Ina Centaur: the fan paid for a piece of lint from a celebrity. he did not get what he purchased
[21:19:02] Cera Jenkins: Value for value... that seems fair to me.
[21:18:44] Ina Centaur: so, the truth: the lint is not from the celebrity, but the fan does not know this and is happy and loves the expensive lint, and the dealer is happy for the money
[21:18:25] Kain Scalia: remembe, English is not my first language :P
[21:18:17] Kain Scalia: I'm sorry, I don't think I understood the sentence :P *blushes*
[21:18:04] Kain Scalia: .... ... ... I think I need you to ask to use less slang :P
[21:18:03] Cera Jenkins: yes, I think so
[21:17:51] Ina Centaur: *gyped
[21:17:45] Ina Centaur: is that a fair trade?
[21:17:42] Ina Centaur: so, say, in reality, the lint is not from the celeb. the fan's been jacked, but both parties are happy.
[21:17:28] Kain Scalia: And Ina: Value is agent-relative :)
[21:17:25] Ina Centaur: value can be fair on only one side even in the most absurd situations: say a fan is in love with a piece of lint from some celebrity's cuffs, and pays a dealer some immense sum of money for it. the placebo effect is in action: there is a high chance that that lint isn't from said celebrity, and yet the fan would rather not admit this fact and would just spend the money to receive his own form of amusement
[21:17:20] Kain Scalia: To act as if there is one type of ethics for the free market and another one for something else... misses the point.
[21:17:02] Kain Scalia: Sharchi, I think the subject of ethics applies to things much greater than the free market. Existence and how we interact with it, for example.
[21:16:35] Sharchi Qinan: so you think ethics are irrelevant to a free market?
[21:16:02] Kain Scalia: Well, not antoher discussion. Just a lot longer.
[21:16:02] Jack Sondergaard: I used to think I could save the world by giving my money away to any needy person who asked for it, so I worked in the oil field, risked my life every day to earn money, and gave thousands of dollars to lazy people
[21:15:52] Kain Scalia: The rest is the realm of morality, which is ruled by philosophy... another discussion altogether
[21:15:47] Ina Centaur: value is relative
[21:15:28] Kain Scalia: Sharchi: Value given for value traded.
[21:15:19] Kain Scalia: And, furthermore, hardly anyome made money with them :p
[21:15:14] Sharchi Qinan: what ehtical checks
[21:14:36] Kain Scalia: Aaah, very good, Ina, you re correct, we have to define that these jobs must occur naturally in a free market, not regulated by politicians who have no idea how the market works and who wish to twist things around and magically expect reality to readjust to their whims.
[21:13:59] Ina Centaur: lol. create jobs -- create jobs with roles that are actually useful, you mean?
[21:13:32] Ina Centaur: yes, so Franklin D. Rosevelt's creating the New Deal and causing nationwide inflation by giving everyone jobs -- even useless ones like watching the sun move across the sky -- was philantrophy.
[21:12:42] Kain Scalia: Yes, jack. That IS the most compassionate. You get it. :)
[21:12:16] Ina Centaur: twisted that gates invests in AIDS when he has shares of stock for AIDS pharms?
[21:12:03] Sharchi Qinan: well regarding AIDS, i think a lot of assumptions are made
[21:11:53] Jack Sondergaard: I've come to think that the greatest philanthropy is to create jobs that make money for the business, the owner, the employers, suppliers, customers, and even a pittance for the government :)
[21:11:48] Kain Scalia: Oh, I see, you were talking about twisted according to vox populi.
[21:11:27] Cera Jenkins: Oh, I guess I should clarify that I meant twisted.. in the eyes of the public... another thing to make a movie about, maybe?
[21:11:12] Ina Centaur: yes, and moreover, if he makes sure that it's invested in something that would show results -- the money is well used... rather than say, channeled over to another charity that would just waste it in bureaucratical inefficiency
[21:11:05] Sharchi Qinan: i didnt say owning stocks was twisted
[21:10:43] Kain Scalia: I would own stocks. What is so twisted about that?
[21:10:19] Sharchi Qinan: Bill Gates?
[21:09:58] Kain Scalia: Why would that be? If he invests in a technology he feels will be successful and will be necessary, it is perfectly moral and justifiable.
[21:09:43] Sharchi Qinan: its a twisted world
[21:09:43] Jack Sondergaard: I'm not against giving money away, but it's the earner's decision to make
[21:09:36] Cera Jenkins: haha that would be twisted
[21:09:18] Sharchi Qinan: maybe he owns stocks in AIDS related pharmaceuticals
[21:09:02] Kain Scalia: And end with, "Are you willing to sacrifice the possibilities of great minds, for just enough?"
[21:08:55] Kain Scalia: Then follows up with, "Think of the most amazing things accomplished with the largest amounts in the world. Dreams that were pursued by the singular vision of one man. What is enough?"
[21:08:50] Cera Jenkins: Why do you think he does it? I think if I had that much money I would give some away, too, just because I wouldn't know what else to do with it.
[21:08:36] Kain Scalia: Concerning those people...my boyfriend usually asks them, "Who says what IS enough?"
[21:07:54] Jack Sondergaard: yes, Billions
[21:07:44] Sharchi Qinan: AIDS related charities mostly iirc
[21:07:20] Cera Jenkins: Doesn't Gates give a lot to charity?
[21:06:52] Kain Scalia: afk
[21:06:33] Jack Sondergaard: when Barbara Walters interviewed Bill Gates, she tried to make him feel guilty for having money, she really thought it belonged to the whole world, except Gates of course
[21:06:28] Kain Scalia: You answer first, I need to get my tea!
[21:06:23] Kain Scalia: Oh, hehe :)
[21:06:19] Cera Jenkins: oh everyone :)
[21:06:11] Kain Scalia: Oh, I mean who was the question directed to :P
[21:06:08] Ina Centaur: yes, how would you counter them w/o appearing the misunderstood?
[21:06:00] Cera Jenkins: I mean the girl who I talked to
[21:05:54] Kain Scalia: or me? :P
[21:05:45] Kain Scalia: Jack?
[21:05:36] Cera Jenkins: What would you have said? How do you counter people who think that way?
[21:05:24] Kain Scalia: I know Galts, and goodness spare me I have lived among the looters.
[21:05:08] Kain Scalia: You would be surprised how many people like that there are around. People have criticized Rand's cahracterization for being flat.... but trust me... it is a LOT less two dimensional than they're comfortable admitting.
[21:05:06] Jack Sondergaard: I've heard that very thing on tv often
[21:04:15] Cera Jenkins: Okay I have a story: the other night I was at a dinner for the college honor society, and I was talking to a girl from Vancouver. She said her father owns a company and actually gives over 50% of what he earns to the government. And it was so crazy because I was reading A.S. and she said the exact thing the looters said in the book that "he has enough. He ought to give it to other people. I mean he doesn't need all that." I didn't want to pick a fight, so I just changed the subject. I'd never encountered anyone with the view that people aren't entitled to the wealth they earn.
[21:03:28] Kain Scalia: If you loot, you are a looter. A hero shuns himself for being a looter, and hates it if he 'has to be'. There are things in the system that are inescapable right now. They are always clear cut. Each situation has a right and wrong . People just choose which to act on in every decision.
[21:03:05] Ina Centaur: back in the phoenix-durango/ore-embargo deal in the beginning of the novel
[21:02:42] Ina Centaur: i thought it was Larkin who said that he was a student of history
[21:02:18] Kain Scalia: Well, the book is Romantic Realism so a lot of things are very heavily underlined... but I have met James Taggarts. Trust me. His name was Roustam and he was from Russia, and he todl me openly to my face that some people had to be sacrificed for the Common Good.
[21:02:15] Ina Centaur: take... Bill Gates for instance ^.~ (details you provide)
[21:02:05] Ina Centaur: yes, in RL things are not so clear cut
[21:01:24] Jack Sondergaard: in the book it is a bit black and white, easy to tell who is a looter and who is a hero, in RL some people are some of both
[21:01:21] Kain Scalia: Well, there are certainoptions. If you have a certain income, there are countries that recognize your right to property and to your own income...such as Monaco, for example.
[21:00:55] Kain Scalia: /me ponders this.
[21:00:42] Ina Centaur: well, it's that whole idea of withdrawal -- how do you apply it to our current society?
[21:00:23] Kain Scalia: Well... I am very blunt, always have been, and being honest makes it even blunter. But there is something to be said for being honest with grace... which I do not master, but which my aunt does exceedingly well.
[20:59:53] Cera Jenkins: I somehow don't think Ayn Rand would have wanted her readers to end up as hobos.
[20:59:49] Ina Centaur: the easiest way... if you accidentally forget to put a cover on your a.r. book.
[20:59:19] Jack Sondergaard: I plan to be more blunt in the future, I am learning a bit about how to respond to parasites from this book
[20:59:18] Ina Centaur: oh yes... public transportation - busses, metros, that's where you meet them.
[20:58:57] Cera Jenkins: haha I haven't met any of those.
[20:58:53] Kain Scalia: Ina... really??
[20:58:44] Ina Centaur: well, there are the hobos who hang in university towns calling themselves John Galt
[20:58:30] Kain Scalia: Well, if you do, you get jailed for tax evasion.
[20:58:22] Cera Jenkins: Is that right?
[20:58:18] Cera Jenkins: But it's not so bad; no one goes on strike for it.
[20:58:15] Kain Scalia: You've noticed.. interesting, isn't it ? :)
[20:57:53] Cera Jenkins: Okay, I've got a 'what if' question. What if the looters in the book had been content with just taking a small portion of the wealth of the great minds and inventors in the book? Their system wouldn't have collapsed, because the great minds wouldn't have been pushed past the edge, where they had to strike. It's kind of like taxes today--more so if you live in Canada than the US--where a large portion of one's income is given to the gorvernment.
[20:57:08] Kain Scalia: I have yet to quit a job, when I could work, becuase of deception or things like that. And although in the field of opera there is space for intrigue that is nearly legendary, I don't participate in it. I am rather bluntly honest---- which does not make me popular with people who like to hide behind "Well, thigns are MUCH more complicated that THAT..."
[20:55:50] Jack Sondergaard: yes, by saying "I quit"
[20:55:32] Kain Scalia: You shrugged :P
[20:55:03] Kain Scalia: Good for you, Jack!
[20:54:50] Jack Sondergaard: in RL, I've quit several jobs after realizing I was expected to deceive people, and it cost the company thousands to train a new employee, so I have gone on "strike" in a sense
[20:54:42] Kain Scalia: No-one can take what is yours unless you let them have it by default.
[20:54:14] Kain Scalia: Well, by the sanction of the victim, it is the looters who are dependent on the goodwill of their victims. They COUNT on them not taking action, and take what is theirs.
[20:53:42] Ina Centaur: lol, on the flip side, you are belittling the work done by the looter in stealing your work by taking it back ;-)
[20:52:55] Kain Scalia: And also consider it isn't immoral to take back what was stolen from you, because it is still yours.
[20:52:11] Kain Scalia: Precisely, cera :)
[20:52:07] Kain Scalia: If someone attacks you and your means to prevent that attack end up with the attacker injuring himself, are you the respondant for that force, or is the attacker who initiated that is responsible for the consequences of his actions?
[20:52:06] Cera Jenkins: They refused to give sanction to the looters.
[20:51:11] Kain Scalia: The force that the looters wrought was coercion. Galt ,a nd the others, refused to be coerced.
[20:50:34] Kain Scalia: A judo step, so to speak.
[20:50:17] Kain Scalia: If it involved force, it didn't involve gal't sforce. It was merely stepping aside and letting the force that was enacted against him exhaust itself.
[20:49:51] Cera Jenkins: plan of removing all the productive minds and leaving the world to collapse?
[20:49:50] Kain Scalia: Well, Ina, considering that the looters sought to use force to subjugate the heroes... remember that the moment force is applied, the choice of a moral election is immediately discarded because what primes is survival.
[20:49:40] Jack Sondergaard: hi Cera
[20:49:29] Ina Centaur: RL=Real Life
[20:49:22] Ina Centaur: hi cera, we are talking about the feasibility of Galt's plan in RL
[20:49:14] Ina Centaur: thus, letting the world topple, "hero by hero"
[20:49:13] Kain Scalia: Hello Cera.
[20:49:05] Cera Jenkins: hey guys
[20:49:04] Ina Centaur: a master planning of sorts -- removing the right hero exactly when the weight of the world bears heaviest on his back
[20:48:50] Kain Scalia: As far as 100% accuracy? not likely. But remenber, it is fiction- technologies like Galt's generator, which can make that plan a 100% success, are light years away, if ever possible at all. But the philosophical principle is the same.
[20:48:46] Ina Centaur: hmm kain, galt's plan also involved a bit of force
[20:47:37] Jack Sondergaard: I don't think it could be fully implemented in RL, but in smaller ways, yes
[20:47:18] Kain Scalia: Incompetence, when unchecked, will gleefully run itself into hell. Again, just look at *sigh* ecuador
[20:47:02] Kain Scalia: Galt's plan was to withdraw and allow the process the looters had set in motion to accelerate to breakneck speed.
[20:46:40] Kain Scalia: If you are the producers and from which everything else depends, you can maintain yourself and be resourceful no matter where you are.
[20:45:49] Ina Centaur: do you think Galt's plan was realistic -- could it be implemented in RL?
[20:45:18] Kain Scalia: Well, could it be more hazardous int he long run than feeding a system that destroys you?
[20:45:16] Ina Centaur: i often see these hobo-type characters lounging about college towns. they're profound, and they all call themselves john galt
[20:44:51] Ina Centaur: welll, in a country like the USA, applying that sort of withdrawal may be hazardous
[20:44:48] Jack Sondergaard: I'm back
[20:44:45] Kain Scalia: It isn't to marvel that the common phrase in Ecuador nowadays is "There isn't anyone fit to do this- or that"
[20:44:04] Kain Scalia: Reading through Atlas Shrugged was like watching a very painful biography of my country.
[20:43:52] Kain Scalia: And the results of mediocrity are painfully evident in that case. Just look at Ecuador, the country I came from.
[20:43:30] Kain Scalia: Not certainly those who are qualified. But those who can fill the spots, whether they do a good job or not.
[20:43:18] Kain Scalia: And, when you come to think about it, it is a very effective form of strike. If all those who are capable refuse to work on that field and choose more menial, less exacting work (in proportion to their brilliance)... who gets promoted to do those jobs?
[20:42:20] Kain Scalia: Though not a voluntary one. I cannot work on my own field-- -the singing I do, I do it gratis because I am not allowed to do it for money by certain laws of which Ina already knows about.
[20:41:55] Kain Scalia: Well... interestingly enough I may be a case of that, in a sense.
[20:41:40] Ina Centaur: exactly. but, what of applying this to RL?
[20:41:20] Kain Scalia: And thus that is why they engage in lesser jobs.
[20:41:11] Kain Scalia: Essentially, they are saying that they will not give the fruits of their work to the world because the world does not recognize where the fruit comes from or what makes it possible.
[20:41:01] Ina Centaur: well, petty is perhaps too vague. i mean: lesser jobs than their brilliance might be able to handle.
[20:40:49] Kain Scalia: Now, concerning why they do it in the novel.. well, Galt says that they refuse to work in their respective fields because they are on strike.
[20:40:11] Jack Sondergaard: I had a back injury this year, but I'm over it now
[20:40:06] Kain Scalia: I do not think there are petty jobs, Ina.
[20:39:54] Ina Centaur: kain, what do you think of the hero's withdrawal from the world when outside of the Gulch --- by reverting to petty jobs?
[20:39:45] Kain Scalia: I hope it's not too hard on your back. My best friend worked at wal-mart for a while and she was careless enough to not wear the harness.
[20:39:21] Jack Sondergaard: manual labor at a retail store
[20:38:52] Kain Scalia: What do you do, Jack? :)
[20:38:38] Jack Sondergaard: I'm going to take a 5 minute break and take a shower, still sweaty from work
[20:38:24] Kain Scalia: ..... jumping garbanzo beans... I forgot to get my tux out of the cleaners >_< I'm going to have to race tomorrow, i see.
[20:38:23] Ina Centaur: ah ;-)
[20:36:57] Kain Scalia: At the theater IRL :)
[20:36:54] Kain Scalia: Not here, Alas.
[20:36:46] Ina Centaur: yay, there is an opera gala tomorrow?
[20:36:17] Martin Scarborough: WOW cool
[20:35:58] Kain Scalia: That's my career, hehe.
[20:35:47] Kain Scalia: Yes.
[20:35:10] Ina Centaur: (thanks kain)
[20:35:07] Martin Scarborough: you sing opera?
[20:34:40] Kain Scalia: If I am here, I have to sing at an opera gala tomorrow night.
[20:34:24] Martin Scarborough: I have your name registerd Kain so Ill get back with you tiomorrow night
[20:34:05] Martin Scarborough: THere are mnay othre but those are two that stand out
[20:34:00] Kain Scalia: Apologetics. I remember that from my first week of rhetoric.
[20:33:54] Martin Scarborough: http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/23_desire.htm
[20:33:18] Martin Scarborough: http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/08_arguments-for-god.htm
[20:33:03] Kain Scalia: go ahead.
[20:33:00] Jack Sondergaard: go ahead
[20:32:45] Martin Scarborough: can I give a web addy to one person who has influecne me?
[20:32:31] Martin Scarborough: Well I will end with this we all like to think of our selves as original but we are undubetedly influnece but those we reguared as higher or better in some way
[20:32:00] [SLDonate] DarkGlass Tip Bin: Thank you for your donation, Kain Scalia!
[20:31:29] Kain Scalia: Ina told me she often eats while watching the discussions. I think she's had enough time to eat a turkey ;)
[20:30:14] Kain Scalia: Go before you get in trouble, I don't want to hold you :)
[20:29:57] Martin Scarborough: maybe dunno
[20:29:53] Martin Scarborough: but I musrt cintinue later
[20:29:47] Kain Scalia: So, there is a good slavery?
[20:29:42] Martin Scarborough: that is the wrong slavery
[20:29:37] Martin Scarborough: no
[20:29:25] Kain Scalia: The expression you have used?
[20:29:23] Martin Scarborough: we are very limited creatures then
[20:29:20] Kain Scalia: Is that not an expression of love?
[20:29:16] Kain Scalia: Hm. Therefore the african slaves should have remained in bondage. They were conquered and bound, were they not?
[20:29:14] Martin Scarborough: nothing but self esteem?
[20:28:50] Martin Scarborough: like in love only when you are conqured by something Higher can you see porpouse and meaning
[20:28:45] Kain Scalia: What is the nature of freedom, Martin?
[20:28:24] Martin Scarborough: more like the AA member who, only when he admits he has a problem can he really begin to understand freedome
[20:28:01] Kain Scalia: Everything is about self-esteem, Matin. If you have no self esteem, you have no means to defend yourself, because you will lack even the will to do so.
[20:27:43] Martin Scarborough: Its not about self esteem
[20:27:41] Kain Scalia: Alright. Explain to me the infusion of love and meaning in...hmmm... metastasized cancer?
[20:27:30] Martin Scarborough: I have to admite Im not hte best at artuculating this but . ..
[20:27:18] Martin Scarborough: but God infuses things witn meaning and love
[20:27:15] Kain Scalia: If you have no self-esteem, one does not mind being a slave.
[20:27:02] Martin Scarborough: that he is higher I have no problem with
[20:26:56] Martin Scarborough: that a bit over simplified
[20:26:43] Martin Scarborough: lol
[20:26:38] Kain Scalia: /me nods at Jack
[20:26:26] Kain Scalia: Let me put it to you in perspective: Your father sends you to school, then to college, and then when you've graduated he brings you back to His Home so that you can stay by his side forever and tell him how great a guy he is for the rest of eternity. And if you don't do it, You Will Regret It. In short, God seems to be Joan Crawford.
[20:26:15] Martin Scarborough: we all believe in hierarchy whether we want to or not
[20:26:07] Kain Scalia: A parent who brings up a child that is completely dependant on them, who have inflicted intentional handicaps on them to ascertain that they never leave their side because they can do nothing without help, would be immediately carted away for child abuse. So why is it that when God does it, it is Holy and Just? The whole plan is for us to blindly obey his commandments, and then when we die all that goes on is that we go "to sit at his right side" not as equals, but still as his children, and pay lip service to him for eternity singing Hosannas and whatnot.
[20:26:07] Jack Sondergaard: many theists would say that the existance of anything is the effect of a cause, and they define that cause as God
[20:25:43] Martin Scarborough: true
[20:25:36] Martin Scarborough: bite
[20:25:30] Martin Scarborough: Im telling you that I cnat give a sould bit answer
[20:25:23] Martin Scarborough: do you have these meets on a regular basis
[20:25:14] Kain Scalia: One question, martin: Is it true that, no matter how much we may be created in his image, we will never be equal to God?
[20:25:13] Martin Scarborough: I hate to do this and Im not funning but I habve to go its 12:30
[20:24:50] Kain Scalia: So, you cannot prove God through the means that he himself gave man, his reason?
[20:24:34] Martin Scarborough: I dont believe you can prove God using the Scentific method
[20:24:27] Kain Scalia: you must define what "God" is in terms that are quanifiable and understandable. The standard definition that he is beyond man's ability to define is not worth anything here.
[20:24:17] Martin Scarborough: I cant do that
[20:24:05] Kain Scalia: BUT FIRST
[20:23:45] Kain Scalia: I want you to create an observable phenomena that will prove beyond all reasonable doubt the existence of an afterligfe and god.
[20:23:43] Martin Scarborough: Ansd no I dont genuflect
[20:23:27] Kain Scalia: Alright. Do so.
[20:23:26] Martin Scarborough: that is atleast part of it
[20:23:20] Martin Scarborough: Yes
[20:22:50] Kain Scalia: Do you recognize it? How. Can you reproduce it?
[20:22:33] Martin Scarborough: I recognizes that this iis not all there is
[20:22:29] Kain Scalia: Philosophically, this is what he's stating: "There is nothing good that can come from me. It must, therefore, come from somewhere/someone else." This whole ideology rests upon the fact that you are broken goods and that nothing you will ever do can compensate for your faults. Improvement, by yourself, is completely impossible: you have to bend down on your knees, fiddle with your rosary, bow your head with great respect and genuflect, genuflect, genuflect! (Sorry... I channeled Tom Lehrer for a second there) This is a typical predestinatory point of view: Because God is holy, just, good, and perfect, and by our very nature (according to religion) we sin against him, then we are unholy, unjust, evil and imperfect. From birth we are flawed beyond all self-redemption, for crimes we did not commit but our (alleged) ancestors did (if God is "just", why is he pinning crimes on the innocent?).
[20:21:53] Kain Scalia: So, what you are telling me is that your religion, yor philosophy, is unfit to guarantee your survival on this earth. That it creates pre-existence conditions which makes the attainment of its highest values unattainable.
[20:21:48] Martin Scarborough: lol
[20:21:44] Martin Scarborough: Do you believe that agape love is possible?
[20:21:25] Martin Scarborough: ok
[20:21:25] Kain Scalia: We live here, and you cannot escape that fact.
[20:21:16] Kain Scalia: No, not in this life. This is all you get. This is all you have to talk about. All of us.
[20:21:07] Kain Scalia: [21:20] Martin Scarborough: In this life yes [21:20] You: Or are you uncomfortable with the fact that to love someone means to find value in them, and to give them your love for what you value, and expect their love in return?
[20:21:03] Martin Scarborough: Not uncomfortable with it no
[20:20:40] Kain Scalia: Or are you uncomfortable with the fact that to love someone means to find value in them, and to give them your love for what you value, and expect their love in return?
[20:20:38] Martin Scarborough: In this life yes
[20:20:18] Kain Scalia: No, but you said it was to be emulated. So, Martin.... does your creator create something that is to be emulated but which is beyond al possible means of getting it?
[20:20:12] Martin Scarborough: I was simply defining a term as requested
[20:20:01] Martin Scarborough: Agope love
[20:19:50] Martin Scarborough: I didn t say that I had Agpe love
[20:19:30] Kain Scalia: A love that has no conditions...ANYONE can buy it.
[20:19:21] Kain Scalia: But martin, that is not Agape. Love for love's sake. If you really loved for love's sake and love was unconditional... it would not matter which one died, because the one you saved is equally as worthy.
[20:18:52] Martin Scarborough: Mother, I believe in the death penalty and he should have gotten it years ago.
[20:18:31] Jack Sondergaard: a common straw-man definition of capitalism it that self interest does not take into account the benefit to all involved in a mutually beneficial trade of something of value
[20:18:17] Kain Scalia: They are both being held hostage. One move from you may save one, but will kill the other. Whom do you choose?
[20:18:12] Martin Scarborough: lol
[20:18:04] Kain Scalia: The other one is , shall we say, Charles Manson.
[20:17:37] Kain Scalia: One of them is the person you love most in this world. Let us say, your mother as hypothetical.
[20:17:18] Kain Scalia: Let us imagine, Martin, that we have two people hanging from a line.
[20:17:12] Kain Scalia: But it is selfish. If you did not care for that person, they would not have an effect on you. It is your pleasure and your emotions. But, soft, that comes in the hypothetical.
[20:16:50] Martin Scarborough: okay
[20:16:37] Martin Scarborough: No because it inherently goes beyond me
[20:16:36] Jack Sondergaard: in Atlas Shrugged, a key element was to neither be a victum or victumize others
[20:15:07] Kain Scalia: But if you are selfish, that means that you only regard your own self interest. However, since making that person unhappy makes you unhappy, isn't their happines within your own selfish interest? After all, it gives you pleasure and joy.
[20:15:01] Jack Sondergaard: that is one definition of selfishness, but not Rand's, which included trading value for value with others to the benefit of everyone involved in the trade
[20:14:36] Martin Scarborough: It does
[20:14:26] Kain Scalia: Martin: If you hurt someone you care for, does that not hurt you as well?
[20:14:16] Kain Scalia: Alrihght, let me lay my hypothetical aside, WE WILL come to it after I say this
[20:14:04] Martin Scarborough: yes
[20:13:44] Kain Scalia: But soft: let's take taht last. Love for its own sake. Interesting. This, you believe, is the highest expression of love. Correct?
[20:13:42] Martin Scarborough: that Is how I define selfisness
[20:13:32] Martin Scarborough: I have always defined selfishness as reaguarding "ME" and no one else, wholly unconcerned for others or the consequnces of my actions to others
[20:13:10] Kain Scalia: If you cannot define it, you do not know it, and cannot speak o fit.
[20:13:04] Kain Scalia: Definitions, please.
[20:12:59] Kain Scalia: that is not a definition. that is, at most, a poor aphorism.
[20:12:31] Martin Scarborough: Agape God love altruism love for it's own sake
[20:12:15] Jack Sondergaard: but at the same time you need to keep in mind that while pursuing your self-interest not to take away the ability of others to also survive, it involves mutual trade of real value between knowledgeable people
[20:12:03] Kain Scalia: How is our love selfish? how is it limited?
[20:11:55] Kain Scalia: You may coin the term, but you have not defined it, you have merely alluded to it.
[20:11:40] Martin Scarborough: Agape is a term
[20:11:24] Kain Scalia: You have only given vague phrases so far. Confine yourself to the description, without the odes.
[20:11:21] Martin Scarborough: our love is very often selfish or limited
[20:11:02] Martin Scarborough: I am defiing my terms
[20:10:42] Kain Scalia: Martin, answer the question. If you seek to flee into the realm of the non-defined and do not seek to give a definition, I will have to drag you kicking and screaming into the world of definition. Love, Martin, no more, no less.
[20:10:32] Martin Scarborough: Agape love is, And that is what I believe what we should aspire to, but it is also the most illusive
[20:09:56] Kain Scalia: recognizing yourself is neither existence nor survivial. Existence is furthering your own existence by pursuing survival, which can only happen if your egard your own self interest.
[20:09:51] Martin Scarborough: And love is a tricky term as English uses that word for all degrees fo l(ove)
[20:09:03] Kain Scalia: And without a self, you have nothing to be aware of. If you are selfless, you have no self to begin with.
[20:08:56] Martin Scarborough: I am not :)
[20:08:44] Kain Scalia: I have asked you a question, Martin, do not evade it.
[20:08:33] Martin Scarborough: Self awareness is what makes is recognize ourselves and understand our individual nature not selfishness.
[20:08:09] Jack Sondergaard: there are over 6 billion people in the world, and it will take the work of over 6 billion people to take care of them, so it's no use for a philanthropist to think "I will save the world" because no one person or group can, each one must take care of themselves first, and then see what they can do to help a few others who have some real disability
[20:06:35] Kain Scalia: First: Is love unconditional, since christianity says it must be selfless?
[20:06:26] Kain Scalia: I have one questin for you, and then I will follow into a hypothetical.
[20:06:12] Kain Scalia: One question, martin.
[20:05:55] Kain Scalia: Selfishness is the only means by which man can exist. If he is selfless, he will sacrifice himself for another, and that one will sacrifice himself for another. Selfishness is what gives man his sense of identity, his desire for survival. Without caring for one's self, one does not care for one's life.
[20:05:16] Martin Scarborough: DO you see selfishness and a common problem
[20:05:11] Jack Sondergaard: and if I help them, will I be left with no resources to take care of my own needs, and thus end up as a parasite myself
[20:05:05] Martin Scarborough: okay
[20:04:28] Jack Sondergaard: you need to ask why they are in need or suffering, how did they get that way
[20:04:16] Kain Scalia: Why are they suffering? What causes the suffering? Who causes it? How is it caused? Where does it cmoe frmo?
[20:03:55] Martin Scarborough: any one in need or suffering
[20:03:44] Kain Scalia: Define compassion and geniuine concern for others?
[20:03:40] Martin Scarborough: okay
[20:03:37] Martin Scarborough: suffering
[20:03:33] Kain Scalia: Yes, you did.
[20:03:28] Martin Scarborough: Did I use the term common good?>
[20:03:20] Ina Centaur: yes, but compassion and genuine concern for others is vague -- which others, and compassion/concern to what extent..
[20:03:04] Kain Scalia: No, you are not. Define common good or do not address the point further. You cannot debate while clinging to things you do not define.
[20:02:38] Martin Scarborough: not a madate
[20:02:35] Martin Scarborough: Im simpluy talking about compaassion and genuine concern for others
[20:02:03] Kain Scalia: Martin: WHo dictates the common good?
[20:01:18] Martin Scarborough: how is sacrifice for the greater good irrelevant?
[20:01:01] Jack Sondergaard: even the current "communists" are adopting capitalism to survive
[20:00:59] Giselle Rhode: but communism as the world has experienced just bypassed economic development and went straight into the final stages
[20:00:35] Kain Scalia: Perhaps, i don't know, ti is because..communism is all about trying to get what you have never earned?
[20:00:33] Giselle Rhode: as far as the theories go
[20:00:26] Giselle Rhode: the inherent contradictions of capitalism would collapse and give rise to communism
[20:00:23] Kain Scalia: Rather telling about communism, hmm.
[20:00:17] Kain Scalia: So, you are saying that without capitalism, communism would have never survived?
[20:00:07] Kain Scalia: Check your premises.
[20:00:02] Giselle Rhode: yes, communism was supposed to happen after capitalism
[20:00:00] Kain Scalia: And how can you have a system that decries capitalism, while at the same time growing fat off it?
[19:59:44] Kain Scalia: And how can you bring economic development without capitlaism?
[19:59:33] Giselle Rhode: communism was supposed to take place after economic development
[19:59:29] Kain Scalia: Not to his own interests, NOTHING to his own interests, but to others'.
[19:59:20] Kain Scalia: Marx's communism is man as a sacrificial animal to serve others and the state.
[19:59:17] Martin Scarborough: Marx's cant be achieved
[19:59:08] Kain Scalia: You are wrong, Giselle, The communism we have seen is EXACTLy the type Marx saw.
[19:58:54] Kain Scalia: You see, Martin, when you are SELFLESS, you have no self to regard, and you regard other selves like so. Therefore, whom you sacrifice FOR THE GREATER GOOD is irrelevant.
[19:58:49] Giselle Rhode: the communism that we saw was not the ideal type as conceptualised by marx
[19:58:39] Martin Scarborough: tells me alot
[19:58:32] Kain Scalia: And that doesn't tell you something?
[19:58:25] Martin Scarborough: and communism failed
[19:58:23] Kain Scalia: Putting The Common Good above yourself.
[19:58:18] Kain Scalia: Living for others.
[19:58:16] Kain Scalia: Communism is all about giving to the other.
[19:58:05] Kain Scalia: Indeed?
[19:58:00] Martin Scarborough: but human pride and selfishness is the cause of most evil and suffering
[19:57:35] Martin Scarborough: give suffering a contexte limit or meaning
[19:57:35] Jack Sondergaard: to get rid of all religion, you would have to kill over 90% of the people who live in the world, the communists tried to accomplish that and millions died and were tortured
[19:57:16] Martin Scarborough: well You try ti life them up
[19:57:14] Kain Scalia: I have a question, Martin: Do you , as a christian, believe your gifts and abilities are yours, or do they come from God?
[19:56:54] Kain Scalia: Therefore, martin, you praise someone who does not know his abilities, who constantly despises hismelf and has no self esteem, and who really does not care about his welfare?
[19:56:36] Kain Scalia: Selfishness: Concern with one's own self interest.
[19:56:30] Kain Scalia: Pride: accurate appraisal of what one accomplishes and what one does, knowing full well the extent of one's abilities.
[19:56:18] Martin Scarborough: how do you mean?
[19:56:03] Martin Scarborough: nad by ego I mean pride and selfishness
[19:55:51] Kain Scalia: It has done nothing good from its own seed. Its members have done good things only when they have abandoned superstition and adhered to reason, even briefly.
[19:55:41] Martin Scarborough: Do you think the world would be safer or better if THere were no religions?
[19:55:24] Martin Scarborough: What good do you see relegion having done?
[19:54:52] Martin Scarborough: I done mean phisically cnetral
[19:54:50] Kain Scalia: Martin: Is 'ego' a bad word?
[19:54:39] Kain Scalia: man is not the center of the universwe. Man is. It is as simple as that.
[19:54:37] Martin Scarborough: Not as far as his ego is concerned
[19:54:33] Ina Centaur: rather, that man isn't the center of the universe, and our galaxy is actualyl quite far away from the singularity that's the center of the U
[19:54:16] Ina Centaur: hmm.. i'd say that modernity has forced man away from the mancentric view
[19:54:11] Kain Scalia: There is no evidence to support the existence of a supernatural being. Furthermore, the question of a divinity existing is of no relevance to man's life on earth.
[19:53:43] Martin Scarborough: Do you believe that there is a God or the possibility of one
[19:53:17] Martin Scarborough: Man often thinks of himself as the center of the universe.
[19:53:06] Kain Scalia: Yes it does. Marin. The concept of a tripartite deity. The concept of even a supernatural being who cannot be detected by rational means or even sensorial data.
[19:53:03] Jack Sondergaard: that applies to mystical religion, but there are many people who believe there is a God who also believe in reason
[19:52:39] Martin Scarborough: True faith does not reaquire you to give up your reason.
[19:52:11] Giselle Rhode: i'm sorry but i just don't care much for any religions that damn non-believers
[19:52:00] Kain Scalia: If you step outside yourself, Martin, who do you step into>?
[19:51:48] Kain Scalia: Essentially, it comes to this: All religions seek mastery over the individual. In order to attain this, they dos o by attacking the very means that man has to live on the world: Reason. They create faith, which tells yout hat you must not listen to reason but to believe them blindly.
[19:51:41] Martin Scarborough: Christianity directly addresses the troubles of people and does not make excuese for it. You have to learn to step outside yourself,
[19:51:27] Jack Sondergaard: but not all Christians agree on what the implications of original sin are
[19:50:53] Kain Scalia: In fact, the only religion that doesn't believe in an original sin is Buddhism, but unfortunately it believes in the destruction of the mind... so it seeks to destroy the individual through another attack.
[19:50:53] Giselle Rhode: islam has its roots in the OT
[19:50:29] Kain Scalia: And Islam is very much the same.
[19:50:18] Ina Centaur: yes, the belief of original sin can only shed a core of evil.
[19:50:07] Kain Scalia: No matter how much one may try to be apologetic for christianity, the simple seed of Original Sin cannot excuse it. If you remove original sin, you take away the entire integrity of its internal structure. But if you leave it there, you ahve a philosophy that damns man for being man.
[19:49:58] Martin Scarborough: ok
[19:49:51] Martin Scarborough: john
[19:49:49] Martin Scarborough: ??
[19:49:49] Jack Sondergaard: there are some Muslim nations that are very friendly to the US, they are not all terrorists
[19:49:46] Martin Scarborough: Jihn Galt
[19:48:34] Kain Scalia: Which, i believe, is covered in the first part of the John Galt speech, right Ina?
[19:48:23] Martin Scarborough: nad it changes eveolves and is more democratic
[19:48:22] Kain Scalia: There can be no benevolence coming from a philosophy whose own seed is the damnation of everything that makes a man a human.
[19:48:09] Martin Scarborough: but the good is even more tangilbe
[19:48:07] Kain Scalia: It has its evil in its own precepts.
[19:48:06] Giselle Rhode: yes, just see ireland
[19:47:59] Martin Scarborough: And Yes Christianity has has its evil in history
[19:47:48] Ina Centaur: yus
[19:47:33] Jack Sondergaard: but to the radicals, they only love and let live others of their own religion
[19:47:31] Kain Scalia: And christianity is hardly any better, it has just had to adapt more.
[19:47:24] Martin Scarborough: But Islam I do not trusrt on anyreal level
[19:47:22] Kain Scalia: Islam is a primitive, brutish, venomous and violent religion.
[19:47:07] Kain Scalia: I studied theology for six years. I know the bible and the quram backards and forwards.
[19:47:06] Giselle Rhode: the holy roman empire wasn't that altruistic
[19:47:06] Martin Scarborough: I lke to be open minded
[19:46:55] Kain Scalia: No, Giselle.
[19:46:49] Giselle Rhode: its the interpretation of it, and the politicisation of it by extremists
[19:46:47] Kain Scalia: ;)
[19:46:36] Kain Scalia: If you believe that, then I am Queen Margheritta of the Falklands.
[19:46:21] Giselle Rhode: islam is peaceloving, as is all religions
[19:46:19] Jack Sondergaard: it was a little difficult for them to defend themselves under Sadaam
[19:46:13] Kain Scalia: Anywhere in the world that irrationality reigns is a lost jungle, until the roots of irrationality die.
[19:45:58] Kain Scalia: As long as Islam and religious totalitarianism stand? No.
[19:45:55] Martin Scarborough: Or is it just a Hydra
[19:45:47] Martin Scarborough: Is there any hope for the Middle east?
[19:45:35] Kain Scalia: Yup.
[19:45:27] Giselle Rhode: oh, u mean so that the sunnis and shias can go back to fighting among themselves
[19:45:17] Martin Scarborough: Who are refusing to defend themselves
[19:45:15] Kain Scalia: Etcetera etcetera etcetera yakkity yak,.
[19:45:06] Kain Scalia: We're rebuilding their society for them.
[19:44:58] Kain Scalia: Why, don't you know? The peace-loving Iraquis, of course.
[19:44:46] Giselle Rhode: whose lives are being saved in iraq?
[19:44:21] Kain Scalia: Which states that you cannot attack to save your own self interests, but that you should sacrifice yourself to save someone else's.
[19:44:08] Martin Scarborough: but many leaders concluded that he had the weapons and connections and all he had to do was cooperate with teh inspectors and let them in which he repeatedly refused
[19:44:04] Kain Scalia: Cadets at west point academy are only taught one theory of war: Just War Cause, or Jus Belo.
[19:43:50] Kain Scalia: We CAN'T go to war for our best interest. We have to go to war to save someone ELSE.
[19:43:39] Kain Scalia: But the other problem that we are facing is a philosophical one.
[19:43:13] Martin Scarborough: That was always a concern of mine with Iran
[19:42:44] Martin Scarborough: What do you mean by "Of looters?"
[19:42:40] Giselle Rhode: yes, they want to see some action
[19:42:35] Kain Scalia: And in the case of Afghanistan it was the correct one. But Iraq? Hardly a tactical decision worthy of Alexander. Specially since we are knee deep in it while Iran is polishing its nuclear armaments witha cheshire grin.
[19:42:28] Jack Sondergaard: that they want to be there
[19:42:11] Jack Sondergaard: yes, that's true of the people I know in the military
[19:41:59] Ina Centaur: true; the military has its own supply of "looters" ^.~
[19:41:51] Martin Scarborough: and making the decison to got to war is never an easy one
[19:41:36] Kain Scalia: ideal.
[19:41:34] Martin Scarborough: Most of the people in the Militay are there becuase they want to be
[19:41:23] Kain Scalia: On an interesting note: Ayn Rand declared any military draft immoral. It doesn't appear in Atlas Shrugged, but she mentions it in "Capitalism: The Unknown idea". i thougth i'd mention it due tot he pertinent topic.
[19:41:21] Giselle Rhode: the administration cares more about aggregates than the individual
[19:40:35] Ina Centaur: "yes, right when the supply of 18 who register to vote" have decimated
[19:40:23] Giselle Rhode: isn't it in the political education of politicians to sprout rhetoric? lol
[19:40:23] Kain Scalia: He believes in sacrifice? He gets a double serving.
[19:40:10] Kain Scalia: "When can we expect them on the front?"
[19:40:03] Kain Scalia: At which point, of course, I would grab his argument and turn it around by asking "Mr. President, are Jenna and (the other one) also going to be giving up their lives to save our country?"
[19:39:53] Jack Sondergaard: maybe he really believes that
[19:39:35] Ina Centaur: so, he'd answer with the pc, "he died to save our country."
[19:39:14] Ina Centaur: it's bad image for pres x to answer "i don't know..." ... when the mother of some lost soldier boy asks him why her son died
[19:38:47] Ina Centaur: well, the problem is - most people expect the president to know things
[19:38:27] Ina Centaur: (GWB)
[19:38:18] Kain Scalia: Yes. I would gladly follow a man who would give me honesty.
[19:38:04] Ina Centaur: /me is passively observing. eating a late dinner
[19:38:03] Jack Sondergaard: I think it may have been Nixon, but I'm not sure
[19:38:00] Martin Scarborough: Carter?
[19:37:53] Ina Centaur: (which president.. lol^^)
[19:37:51] Martin Scarborough: hehe
[19:37:45] Jack Sondergaard: no, decades ago
[19:37:36] Kain Scalia: The current president?
[19:37:22] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I remember a President once wasting 20 minutes not answering a question, he should have just said "I don't know"
[19:36:56] Kain Scalia: The *moment* you have a word in front of justice? Something fishy is afoot.
[19:36:44] Kain Scalia: But yes... I have noticed one thing concerning justice.
[19:36:24] Kain Scalia: /me chuckles.
[19:36:20] Martin Scarborough: I'm white, Cracker if you like.
[19:36:04] Kain Scalia: Give me the bald, honest truth any day o fthe week.
[19:35:56] Kain Scalia: I'm short. not "vertically challenged"
[19:35:48] Kain Scalia: I'm latino. Not a "hispanic american".
[19:35:43] Kain Scalia: Yes. Political correctness.
[19:35:31] Martin Scarborough: and I say no
[19:35:25] Martin Scarborough: These seem like all new ways of putting politicall correctness into law
[19:35:20] Kain Scalia: I come from a country that has become socialist/paternalist. I have experienced these trends very much firsthand. Even before I knew Ms. Rand's work, I was aware of the motivations of those who seek the unearned.
[19:34:41] Kain Scalia: /me nods.
[19:34:29] Martin Scarborough: I feel that way about gun lawas as well yes
[19:34:21] Kain Scalia: And specially not those that hinder freedom of speech. I will support anyone's right to call me an f-word. If they aggress me, that's assault, and it's covered under the law which protects me.
[19:33:28] Kain Scalia: Enlightened justice also has another ugly extension: hate crimes laws. Now, I am homosexual, but I do not spport hate crimes bills. A crime is already a hate crime. We should instead push towards enforcing the laws taht exist and make sure they are accomplished, not create special laws.
[19:32:56] Kain Scalia: Essentially: the individual must live for/by the state, others, etcetera. An iteration of altruism.
[19:32:50] Martin Scarborough: the "It takes a village to raise a child" mentality, or something else
[19:32:49] Jack Sondergaard: there's a book out now called "The Wisdom Of The Crowd", but it's not about what has just been presented
[19:32:43] Kain Scalia: Collectivism: the ideology which defers to the crowd, the state and the collective over individual will, knowledge and ability.
[19:32:17] Martin Scarborough: Define collectivism
[19:31:30] Kain Scalia: Tell me how wise collectivism seems?
[19:31:29] Martin Scarborough: it Was mikey D's
[19:31:24] Kain Scalia: Well, Giselle, the wisdom of crowds burns witches, shuns homosexuals and sometimes stones them, and supported black slavery.
[19:31:20] Martin Scarborough: yes
[19:31:10] Martin Scarborough: Cases are always looked at and judged individually that is a given
[19:30:51] Kain Scalia: It's the logical continuation of a woman suing a restaurant for hot coffee. You know what case I mean.
[19:30:44] Martin Scarborough: I mean I remember listneing to that grabage in Talkshows in the 80;s
[19:30:41] Jack Sondergaard: if that is what it is, it is not really enlightened
[19:30:41] Giselle Rhode: what then, of the theory of the wisdom of crowds?
[19:30:22] Kain Scalia: /me nods to Marin.
[19:30:15] Kain Scalia: Yes, Jack, but it still remains formed of individuals. It does not have a will, it does not have a body. There is no such thing as a collective brain.
[19:29:50] Kain Scalia: In essence, it seems to me that enlightened justice is a continuing trend in legal affairs where personal responsibility is eschewed for a system in which accountability is not a currency, but something to be avoided.
[19:29:50] Martin Scarborough: a form of political correctness and part of "dont teke responsibility for your own actioj attitiude
[19:29:39] Jack Sondergaard: society is a lot of individuals
[19:29:33] Giselle Rhode: i don't think violent crimes fall under the ambit of enlightened justice
[19:29:18] Kain Scalia: Forget society, ti is an abstraction. He poses a danger to individuals.
[19:29:05] Martin Scarborough: I think has been taken to the extreme
[19:29:02] Jack Sondergaard: it would seem such a person poses a danger to society
[19:29:02] Kain Scalia: By the account of enlightened justice, we will take a soft, caring look at this man's familiar surroundings, and let him go with a slap on the wrist with the promise of reform.
[19:28:12] Jack Sondergaard: take a drunken driver accident for example, their judgement was impared, but they shouldn't have been driving drunk either
[19:28:07] Kain Scalia: Alright, let us have a specific. A rage-bound individual who suffers from a violent temper and is of a violent and excitable character has raped and murdered a young woman.
[19:27:19] Giselle Rhode: i wouldn't know...i'm not in the legal profession, but i thought it was refreshing, for better or for worse, to look beyond what the person has done, into the familial and other support networks that assist in reform efforts
[19:27:17] Kain Scalia: There's the rub, Jack. Usually when there is very little difference between the old and the new, the case usually lies in that the new is not quite what it would appear to be.
[19:27:14] Martin Scarborough: in]
[19:27:08] Martin Scarborough: is this specifically on the US?
[19:26:28] Jack Sondergaard: it doesn't sound completely new to me, I think the circumstances are often taken into account
[19:26:10] Kain Scalia: Does Enlightened Justice seek to excuse the individual of his responsibility, or does it hold him accountable when appropriate? (such as in cases where his cognitive judgement is not impaired by other factors than his own self)
[19:25:09] Kain Scalia: Well, then the question I want to make is: What is the difference between the legal attenuating circumstances that "enlightened justice" considers, from the ones that actual justice considers?
[19:24:56] Jack Sondergaard: but if it's a real serious crime, you might be careful about just accepting a verbal promise to reform
[19:24:21] Giselle Rhode: it's a new paradigm apparently
[19:24:09] Giselle Rhode: no specific cases unfortunately, just the movement towards enlightened justice
[19:23:24] Jack Sondergaard: I think it would be difficult for me to say anything about it without knowing the details of a specific case
[19:23:02] Kain Scalia: There comes a second questin: Should it be the task of the government to reform people? Why? And if so, at the cost of whom?
[19:22:30] Giselle Rhode: and is actively engaged in rehab efforts and reintegration
[19:22:18] Kain Scalia: By enligthened justice, you mean to say that exact justice should be put aside because man is a victim of his circumstances and he is helpless to them, and therefore it was thsoe circumstances that made him become a criminal?
[19:22:09] Giselle Rhode: or indeed, if the family is supportive of rehabilitation
[19:21:47] Giselle Rhode: or the accused propensity for repent
[19:21:33] Kain Scalia: Let me see if I understand you correctly.
[19:21:21] Giselle Rhode: e.g. the accused or plaintiff's life situations
[19:21:17] Ina Centaur: is enlightened blind?
[19:21:00] Giselle Rhode: now the judges are looking into other considerations
[19:20:44] Giselle Rhode: justice used to be blind....
[19:20:23] Kain Scalia: Giselle, can you define the term 'enlightened justice' for us?
[19:20:08] Giselle Rhode: what do u all think about enlightened justice?
[19:19:52] Ina Centaur: .. nepotism is inevitable.
[19:19:48] Ina Centaur: conventional views of justice allow emotion to be factored in
[19:19:41] Ina Centaur: yes, justice should be unbiased
[19:19:26] Kain Scalia: /me is in the right group...he checks.
[19:19:16] Ina Centaur: the group will update and supply landmarks
[19:19:05] Ina Centaur: ~ btw i just sent an invitation to the sLiterary group --- pretty much everything i have built here will be moved to a new sim
[19:19:01] Kain Scalia: Nobody deserves any more or any less than anyone else. And that is pure and simply one thing: Reality. That's what we all get. Why try to ignore that fact?
[19:17:58] Kain Scalia: From what I have seen, there is a skewed view of justice in current culture that has more to do with emotional appeals than the observance of a law, and even of objective points. We are expected to sacrifice justice for mercy... in a way, as if we were expected to ignore cause and effect. People seem to appropriate the word "justice" for their own means... you know, PETA's "Vegan Justice", and so on and so forth.. but justice is justice, there really is no special 'flavour' of justice.
[19:16:36] Kain Scalia: /me is already in the grou, Ina :)
[19:16:15] Ina Centaur: btw, what do you think the conventional view of justice is?
[19:16:10] Ina Centaur: yes, the one on justice is interesting
[19:15:47] Kain Scalia: Aah, i like the topics they chose this year.
[19:14:48] Ina Centaur: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_contests_atlas
[19:14:42] Ina Centaur: we can also discuss the essay topics
[19:14:23] Ina Centaur: today is the 31st, and was supposed to be day 2 of galt's speech
[19:14:19] Kain Scalia: /me nods
[19:14:11] Martin Scarborough: ok
[19:14:02] Ina Centaur: well, we generally talk about atlas shrugged, politics, life, the universe and everything
[19:13:51] Kain Scalia: What chapter are you going to discuss today?
[19:13:28] Jack Sondergaard: I listened to it from the audiobook I got on iTunes
[19:12:21] Martin Scarborough: I regert I have not read Atles Shrugged
[19:12:13] Martin Scarborough: so whats up
[19:11:08] Ina Centaur: you can alt-click to zoom
[19:11:00] Ina Centaur: towards the beach side log cabin
[19:11:00] Martin Scarborough: I g uess the camera is stationary here
[19:10:55] Ina Centaur: hi korobas, this way to the discussion
[19:10:51] Mute Flow: :)
[19:10:23] Jack Sondergaard: hi Mute
[19:10:04] Ina Centaur: click on the atlas shrugged poster for the essay contest website
[19:09:46] Jack Sondergaard: and up the stairs
[19:09:40] Jack Sondergaard: door on the side, just walk through it
[19:09:25] Martin Scarborough: any way in
[19:09:15] Jack Sondergaard: hi Martin
[19:09:00] Kain Scalia: I was not, but I'm going to enter it if I have the time :)
[19:08:59] Martin Scarborough: hello?
[19:08:58] JokerRick Gregory: take care
[19:08:51] JokerRick Gregory: I'll take my leave as well, I hope to meet you for a first or second meeting :)
[19:08:20] Ina Centaur: they are open to all who are in university
[19:08:09] Ina Centaur: kain, btw are you aware of the ayn rand essay contests?
[19:08:02] Ina Centaur: today is open topic or galt's speech... or topics from the essay contest
[19:07:50] Ina Centaur: a chapter a day for each day of august
[19:07:47] Ina Centaur: we've had 30 meetings in the past 30 days
[19:07:44] Jack Sondergaard: every day this month
[19:07:37] Ina Centaur: lol..
[19:07:34] Jenni Kawashima: enjoy your meeitng!
[19:07:29] Jenni Kawashima: i dont belong here. i didnt read the book.
[19:07:26] JokerRick Gregory: about how many meetings have you had?
[19:07:14] JokerRick Gregory: Hello
[19:07:08] Jack Sondergaard: hi Jenni
[19:06:50] Kain Scalia: /me is waitingfor thngs to rez
[19:06:49] Ina Centaur: we will perhaps hold more discussions -- but elsewhere on a new sim in the near future
[19:06:46] Kain Scalia: Hello everybody.
[19:06:34] Jack Sondergaard: hi Kain
[19:06:34] Ina Centaur: welcome to the last day of atlas shrugged discussions
[19:06:32] Jenni Kawashima: hello
[19:06:28] Ina Centaur: hi kain and jenni
[19:06:24] Jack Sondergaard: I think I would have known better what to say to them
[19:06:21] Ina Centaur: hi joker. welcome to the last day of atlas shrugged discussions
[19:05:51] Ina Centaur: it would teach you to withdraw... which is perhaps a bad thing
[19:05:43] Ina Centaur: does the book teach you how to deal with the looters though?
[19:05:36] Jack Sondergaard: and I had friends who would not work but expected me to take care of them and I did
[19:05:36] Ina Centaur: hmmm
[19:03:56] Jack Sondergaard: I didn't know how to deal with people who took advantage of me
[19:03:24] Ina Centaur: what do you think would have been different?
[19:03:19] Ina Centaur: would have changed your life..
[19:03:15] Ina Centaur: you mentioned if you read AS when you were young
[19:03:09] Ina Centaur: question from yesterday
[19:03:06] Ina Centaur: btw..
[19:02:58] Jack Sondergaard: hi Ina
[19:02:57] Ina Centaur: hi jack
[23:27:27] LUTGEM Mighty: sex
[22:12:23] Ina Centaur: SLITERARY EVENTS CENTER
[21:55:50] Nakaima Oh: nice talking with you all.
[21:55:44] Nakaima Oh: me too. :)
[21:55:41] Cera Jenkins: see you guys tomorrow
[21:55:37] Cera Jenkins: I'm gonna sign off
[21:55:31] Cera Jenkins: sounds good
[21:55:28] Nakaima Oh: Well, It's getting late. Here. See
[21:53:05] Nakaima Oh: Cera, Ina, was just saying they're going to do Woolf next.
[21:51:33] Cera Jenkins: is AS the only book you've read so far for this group?
[21:51:03] Cera Jenkins: Guess I came back too late; everyone is gone
[21:51:00] Nakaima Oh: Written in 1924 I think
[21:50:41] Nakaima Oh: I just read a novella by Edith Warton called "the old Maid" that was very good.
[21:49:44] Ina Centaur: yes. the series is non-contemporary authors..
[21:49:18] Nakaima Oh: Clarise is dead alas, though.
[21:49:01] Nakaima Oh: There are lots of women doing strong work today.
[21:48:28] Nakaima Oh: Do Lispector would be fun.
[21:48:24] Ina Centaur: (i started with Rand, since that's the only book written by a noteable woman author [other than kiddy books like a winkle in time, etc.] that i've read multiple time)
[21:48:15] Nakaima Oh: Oh, maybe. I am pretty busy as you saw with my faithful showing up for rand. :)
[21:47:58] Ina Centaur: hehe, basically ToryLynn will be holding discussions for Woolf
[21:47:48] Ina Centaur: will you be willing to hold the discussion for clarise?
[21:47:11] Nakaima Oh: One of my favorites is Clarise Lispetor. If we ever get around to the less wel known. :)
[21:46:27] Ina Centaur: hehe, perhaps ;-)
[21:46:10] Ina Centaur: i will be reading a paper edition
[21:46:06] Ina Centaur: oh true..
[21:46:06] Nakaima Oh: Actually AS was a good choice. I think everyone should read it. Not everyone has to love it. :)
[21:45:26] Nakaima Oh: Probably be good if everyone is reading the same edition for page numbers and stuff.
[21:44:54] Ina Centaur: the book is public domain in australia; txt provided by project gutenberg
[21:44:23] Nakaima Oh: Thannks for bk, too
[21:44:23] Ina Centaur: 6 chapters
[21:44:21] Ina Centaur: discussions probably once a week or two
[21:44:13] Ina Centaur: hehe..
[21:44:12] Ina Centaur: and it WON'T be daily
[21:44:10] Ina Centaur: will be announced in the sLiterary group
[21:44:03] Nakaima Oh: Same group? Or is WoWa a group?
[21:43:43] Nakaima Oh: Cool. I have not read that.
[21:43:33] Ina Centaur: next book will be Room of One's Own
[21:43:21] Ina Centaur: yes, i know Rand was probably not the best choice ^.~
[21:43:14] Ina Centaur: works of women authors
[21:43:01] Nakaima Oh: WoWA?
[21:42:45] Ina Centaur: i guess we will continue with the whole WoWA thing with.. Virginia Woolf?
[21:42:25] Nakaima Oh: ?
[21:42:22] Nakaima Oh: Are you going to do a different book next, Ina
[21:41:46] Jack Sondergaard: good discussion, just one more night
[21:41:27] Nakaima Oh: night
[21:41:21] Diana Giugiaro: It's time for me to head otu as well.
[21:41:15] Diana Giugiaro: night!
[21:41:13] Jack Sondergaard: good night everyone
[21:41:07] Jack Sondergaard: well I think I will finish a horror movie
[21:38:16] Jack Sondergaard: also George Luca's first motion picture, THX 1138, my favorite one of his
[21:36:08] Diana Giugiaro: Thought police. One of the most harrowing, terrifying things in fiction.
[21:35:42] Jack Sondergaard: in those the collective "We" controlled all thought, also in 1984
[21:33:11] Nakaima Oh: In fact I think rand's was a response to huxly
[21:32:57] Jack Sondergaard: yes, and there was another book called "We", very similar
[21:32:30] Nakaima Oh: Rand wrote a book very much like that one. Called Anthum (spelled wrong)
[21:31:44] Diana Giugiaro: /me shudders
[21:31:41] Diana Giugiaro: Somehow, I think I'm aruging for Adolphus Huxley's "Brave new World"
[21:31:12] Diana Giugiaro: Both are equally destructive.
[21:31:12] Jack Sondergaard: somewhere in between we must seek a balance
[21:30:43] Jack Sondergaard: either total central control or total individual freedom cannot be acheived
[21:30:00] Jack Sondergaard: to a certain extent, but there can be too much control too
[21:29:38] Diana Giugiaro: Voltaire said it best when he said "God was a dream of good government."
[21:29:17] Diana Giugiaro: We need control, a heirarchy.
[21:29:07] Diana Giugiaro: It's part of being human. We need it.
[21:28:59] Diana Giugiaro: No one is free from it.
[21:28:57] Jack Sondergaard: no one has ever had total freedom or ever will
[21:28:55] Diana Giugiaro: I'm simply stating that Society pulls on all of us.
[21:28:44] Diana Giugiaro: We're a much free-er country that previous countries, no arguement.
[21:28:34] Jack Sondergaard: total freedom is a fantasy
[21:28:19] Diana Giugiaro: God, I can't spell tonight, I apologize.
[21:28:13] Jack Sondergaard: and generally you have the freedom to verbalize your dissatisfactions, just as you are now doing
[21:28:09] Diana Giugiaro: But not total freedome.
[21:28:05] Diana Giugiaro: Some freedom, yes.
[21:27:11] Jack Sondergaard: but even within that, there can still be some freedom
[21:27:08] Nakaima Oh: On the upside, Diana, you can get a gun in the US> :)
[21:26:49] Diana Giugiaro: Thank you.
[21:26:40] Jack Sondergaard: to some degree, yes, that has always been true, that is reality
[21:26:30] Diana Giugiaro: We all have to follow it, to one degree or another.
[21:26:15] Diana Giugiaro: Society places restraints on the individual.
[21:26:06] Diana Giugiaro: Hence, my point.
[21:26:04] Diana Giugiaro: But - we live in teh same country, and I'm constrained.
[21:25:34] Jack Sondergaard: there are at least some constraints in every nation and society that has ever existed, but we can try to change things or seek a place better suited, but no one has ever had 100% freedom in this human world
[21:24:50] Diana Giugiaro: The fact that a certain behavior is allowed in one place, denied in another, shows how pervassive Society can be, how controlling.
[21:24:01] Diana Giugiaro: That is not freedom at all.
[21:23:58] Diana Giugiaro: I am being constrained to do something, forced to do soemthing I do not wish to do.
[21:23:45] Diana Giugiaro: That is not freedom.
[21:23:40] Diana Giugiaro: I MUST move.
[21:23:38] Diana Giugiaro: No, I am not free.
[21:23:28] Jack Sondergaard: but you are free to move or stay, that's your choice
[21:23:22] Diana Giugiaro: I am constrained.
[21:23:15] Diana Giugiaro: I have to give up my home for a privledge that should be mine - but the dominant culture around me doesn't agree.
[21:22:56] Diana Giugiaro: I can move to a different part of the country that tends to reflect my cutlure, but then I'm loosing.
[21:22:40] Diana Giugiaro: I'm heavily influenced by a culture not my own.
[21:22:25] Diana Giugiaro: If I choose to marry a woman, in my state, I'm forbidden by law. It's my choice, but I'm forbidden.
[21:22:06] Diana Giugiaro: Then we see things so differently.
[21:21:40] Jack Sondergaard: US
[21:21:36] Diana Giugiaro: Where do you live?
[21:21:13] Jack Sondergaard: I know that in some countries there is a very dominant controlling culture, but in the one I live in there are many cultures, and any one is relatively free to be influence or not by any they choose
[21:20:18] Nakaima Oh: Hey, if you work for Leona, you do what you're told.:)
[21:19:51] Diana Giugiaro: I can't rebut because we dont' have a common point of refference, so I give.
[21:19:09] Jack Sondergaard: and if people want to follow the crowd, that's their decision, I'm not going to tell them they have to follow me instead
[21:18:33] Diana Giugiaro: We're talking a cross purposes now because we're coming from two different angles.
[21:18:01] Diana Giugiaro: /me shrugs
[21:17:19] Jack Sondergaard: I follow my own path, not some "Society"
[21:16:48] Diana Giugiaro: As the society in which you are a part, yes you are.
[21:16:40] Diana Giugiaro: As an individual, no you're not.
[21:16:30] Jack Sondergaard: I'm not constrained by the "least"
[21:16:18] Diana Giugiaro: Society with a big "S".
[21:15:52] Jack Sondergaard: how do you define "the mob"?
[21:15:43] Diana Giugiaro: And a society is constrained by the least of its people, taken as a whole.
[21:15:25] Diana Giugiaro: Individuals and the mob are two totally different things.
[21:15:21] Jack Sondergaard: nothing but individuals
[21:15:07] Jack Sondergaard: and society is individuals
[21:14:43] Jack Sondergaard: society is made up of all sorts of people, not just the LCD
[21:14:13] Jack Sondergaard: high quality might be a better term for it
[21:14:05] Diana Giugiaro: But it's not the individual we're discussing, it's society as a whole. Lowest common denominator.
[21:14:02] Nakaima Oh: I wonder what Rand would think of companies like Clear Channel?
[21:13:39] Jack Sondergaard: I've learned to buy only a few things of high value, but it took a lot of trial and error to find that out
[21:12:38] Jack Sondergaard: sure, some of the demands are for things of little value, but the alternative is to have a central authority tell us what we can have
[21:12:08] Diana Giugiaro: Mostly, we're grown pretty apathetic.
[21:11:28] Diana Giugiaro: Supply our Demand, and we'll be happy little bees. Throw a kink in the works, we'll rage out of control -somewhat, kinda.
[21:11:05] Diana Giugiaro: That, in the US, is supply and demand.
[21:10:55] Diana Giugiaro: now we're disucssing what society values.
[21:10:30] Ina Centaur: or repositioned
[21:10:29] Jack Sondergaard: I grew up with vacuum tube tvs, I'll take my flat screen LCD any day over that
[21:10:23] Nakaima Oh: The walmart model is you don't care you can still make a profit. The workers are just doing what workers in those stores do.
[21:10:22] Ina Centaur: in industry, if you do your best, and you don't get the job done... that's often enough to get fired
[21:10:03] Ina Centaur: there's a difference between doing the best and getting the job done
[21:09:39] Nakaima Oh: Well, sure. That's what I said. Most people are doing the best they can. That plumber didn't say hey I think I'll put in leaky pipes.
[21:09:25] Ina Centaur: so.. walmart.. so yeah, you can get a TV for like $5... but it's often shoddy and breaks after a few months or something
[21:09:24] Diana Giugiaro: Do we need to marvel at the act of maintaining?
[21:09:11] Diana Giugiaro: Work is valuable, but is it of extrodinary value?
[21:09:02] Ina Centaur: all work if done well is valuable
[21:08:54] Nakaima Oh: All work is valuable
[21:08:45] Ina Centaur: 3. all the heroes were undercover as common workers
[21:08:42] Diana Giugiaro: Why should we exalt him for doing a simple job?
[21:08:38] Ina Centaur: 2. huge akston was a cook at a diner
[21:08:31] Ina Centaur: 1. note that Galt took on a job as a common worker
[21:08:28] Nakaima Oh: Yes but why should we look down our noses at him?
[21:08:15] Jack Sondergaard: I agree she doesn't give as much value to the common worker as she should have
[21:08:11] Diana Giugiaro: Someone else who wans to eat.
[21:08:02] Nakaima Oh: there is someone raking up the leaves. If he doesn't do it who will?
[21:07:51] Diana Giugiaro: Or do we only call out those who truly excell?
[21:07:44] Nakaima Oh: I go down and get a hamburger and it's usually just what I ordered.
[21:07:34] Diana Giugiaro: Is maintaining worth special mention?
[21:07:30] Nakaima Oh: I look at the work the plumber did in my house and I'm amazed.
[21:07:07] Nakaima Oh: If only we leave them alone to build the superstores and then pay us whatever they want and so on.
[21:07:07] Diana Giugiaro: Is the work of the mass of value?
[21:07:06] Ina Centaur: she values eddie's
[21:06:38] Nakaima Oh: Rand doesn't seem to value everyone's work only the special people
[21:06:21] Nakaima Oh: When i actually got out into the world I discovered most people are just doing the best they can.
[21:06:02] Nakaima Oh: Ah, that's the second part.
[21:05:46] Ina Centaur: you said she is mostly clueless about how society works?
[21:05:36] Jack Sondergaard: you could use that motivation to design a better wind generator, or a safe transportation system
[21:04:14] Nakaima Oh: What I meant was I really like the way she pumps you up and makes you want to go out and do better. Be the best whatever it is you do.
[21:03:39] Nakaima Oh: whoops,. I don't know that word.
[21:03:21] Ina Centaur: nakaima, give us your disillusiontopia
[21:03:13] Jack Sondergaard: actually the quality of many things have gotten better during the past decades
[21:02:46] Nakaima Oh: I think she is mostly clueless when it comes to how society works.
[21:02:33] Nakaima Oh: I think the real value in Rand's books is that they make you want to be the best you can be.
[21:00:51] Diana Giugiaro: Quality or quantity?
[21:00:51] Jack Sondergaard: no business is perfect, but where would we be without them?
[20:59:24] Jack Sondergaard: I know many people who think they deserve to get paid well for doing very little work
[20:58:59] Nakaima Oh: Isn't there business and business? I'm uneasy about the walmart model
[20:57:58] Jack Sondergaard: is business good for the world?
[20:57:54] Ina Centaur: the various 3rd world countries
[20:57:49] Ina Centaur: the whole oil fiasco
[20:57:44] Nakaima Oh: Is anyone seriously suggesting that?
[20:57:20] Jack Sondergaard: what are the value of things, of money, of our labor, should we give everyone equal pay regardless of their contribution?
[20:55:19] Nakaima Oh: how so?
[20:55:09] Jack Sondergaard: yes, it's very much the same current events
[20:54:25] Ina Centaur: a lot of the problems in AS still exist nowadays
[20:53:55] Jack Sondergaard: no one can know, no one change anything
[20:53:41] Nakaima Oh: I've heard people say it like you're supposed to know or maybe like it's zen koan
[20:53:09] Ina Centaur: if not taken as for a joke
[20:53:06] Ina Centaur: i guess it'd be the same
[20:52:49] Jack Sondergaard: in the book, it was a cry of despair and ignorance, of resignation to powerlessness
[20:51:16] Nakaima Oh: what do
[20:51:04] Nakaima Oh: So, Ina, what to rand folks mean today when they say Who is John Galt??
[20:49:24] Ina Centaur: for each day of august
[20:49:20] Ina Centaur: chapter per day]
[20:49:13] Ina Centaur: was supposed to be a day-to-day readathon
[20:49:04] Ina Centaur: atlas shrugged
[20:48:23] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:48:23] Princeton Furse: the book?
[20:48:06] Nakaima Oh: That is you have to first decide if it's even worth it.
[20:47:44] Nakaima Oh: Didn't he say the first philosophical question is suicide?
[20:47:30] Jack Sondergaard: I would say the same thing of cars that I say of war, both kill vast numbers of people in their youth, and we need cars, but safe ones, and sometimes wars can't be avoided, but we should avoid them when better alternatives can be found
[20:47:23] Princeton Furse: not momentary, fleeting
[20:47:17] Princeton Furse: His point was, collective happiness.
[20:46:59] Princeton Furse: Oddly, he was killed in a tragic car accident alone on a darkened road, and I hope he eeked it out!
[20:46:51] Diana Giugiaro: Our society, mostly, has been tricked into beleiving that if you aren't experiecing near-orgasmic levels of pure bliss nine-tenths of the time, something is wrong.
[20:46:33] Princeton Furse: Or, as a friend said, "When I die, I hope to eek out one last final phrase: "What a ride!"
[20:46:05] Diana Giugiaro: Happiness isn't pleasure or joy.
[20:45:57] Diana Giugiaro: You have to be careful.
[20:45:44] Nakaima Oh: :)
[20:45:36] Diana Giugiaro: As a hedonist, I identify with that.
[20:45:32] Princeton Furse: and each day
[20:45:30] Princeton Furse: If your life is unhappy now, and death may be aroun the corner, then try to figure out how to be happy today
[20:45:10] Princeton Furse: His point was, live each day in happiness for tomorrow may be unknown.
[20:44:48] Nakaima Oh: Poor Camus -- a pointless auto accident
[20:44:46] Diana Giugiaro: Oh, wait.
[20:44:44] Diana Giugiaro: So nice to be given a choice...
[20:44:33] Princeton Furse: Die happy
[20:44:31] Princeton Furse: when you are happy, would say Camus.
[20:44:20] Diana Giugiaro: You die when you die.
[20:44:16] Diana Giugiaro: When is the right time to die?
[20:44:12] Nakaima Oh: So, we need to avoid war, build better highways, and give health care to everyone. :)
[20:44:05] Diana Giugiaro: Can we really say that for sure?
[20:43:57] Ina Centaur: yes, but in war... people die when they shouldn't.
[20:43:45] Ina Centaur: battles
[20:43:43] Diana Giugiaro: I mean, what's the analogy? People die.
[20:43:31] Diana Giugiaro: Car accidents?
[20:43:30] Ina Centaur: yes; it's sad.
[20:43:27] Diana Giugiaro: Or the minds wasted by.. heart attacks?
[20:43:01] Jack Sondergaard: and think of the millions of minds wasted on the battlefields, extinguished by stray shrapnel and bullets
[20:43:00] Ina Centaur: yus
[20:42:33] Nakaima Oh: Rand was surely an atheist, right? I've read three of her books, and I get that impression.
[20:42:22] Diana Giugiaro: It's a matter of effeciency and speed.
[20:42:15] Diana Giugiaro: Sure it could. And I could push my car with my feet.
[20:41:50] Jack Sondergaard: it does drive industry, but could not industry find other drivers also
[20:41:37] Diana Giugiaro: It's a brutal, ineffecient, angry catalyst, but it does function as one.
[20:41:12] Diana Giugiaro: That's not true. War forges great minds - war is a catalyst.
[20:41:12] Jack Sondergaard: hello
[20:41:08] Ina Centaur: hi princeeton
[20:40:57] Nakaima Oh: hi
[20:40:52] Diana Giugiaro: Hi!
[20:40:49] Princeton Furse: hello all
[20:40:42] Ina Centaur: a lot of great minds are wasted in war
[20:40:42] Diana Giugiaro: hard to second guess history.
[20:40:38] Diana Giugiaro: World War 2 would have had a much different ending.
[20:40:18] Jack Sondergaard: I won't look
[20:39:54] Jack Sondergaard: take the Manhattan Project for example, it did produce nucleur power, which can produce electricity, but what if those billions had been spent on windmill research and better electric vehicles?
[20:39:26] Ina Centaur: o.O
[20:38:28] Ina Centaur: (find the door, princeton?)
[20:38:16] Ina Centaur: (upstairs)
[20:37:45] Ina Centaur: (hi princeton)
[20:37:44] Diana Giugiaro: Sorry!
[20:37:37] Nakaima Oh: That was book title Diana, sorry. :)
[20:37:30] Diana Giugiaro: Religiion is trying to stave off the death of god.
[20:37:18] Nakaima Oh: The University system is still pretty storng though
[20:37:18] Diana Giugiaro: It's not a republican war. It's a Moral Majority war. The Republican party is just a piece, but it's not the cause.
[20:36:47] Nakaima Oh: Well there is that pesky republican war on science.
[20:36:40] Diana Giugiaro: Our ethics have gotten in bed without science.
[20:36:30] Ina Centaur: forbidding stem cell researchi in the US
[20:36:23] Nakaima Oh: Sorry spoke too soon. That was the history. You're right.
[20:36:22] Ina Centaur: yes, especially with certain restrictive laws..
[20:36:17] Empty Glass: Someone buy Princeton Furse a drink!
[20:36:07] Diana Giugiaro: The world is leaving us far, far behind.
[20:36:02] Diana Giugiaro: The Us isn't the leader in science.
[20:35:48] Nakaima Oh: Oh and Europe too sincde it's mostly the same system
[20:35:20] Nakaima Oh: True but the system has made the US the leader in science
[20:35:16] Ina Centaur: so now, you have these smart particles (which may be carcinogenic) being deployed in airports
[20:34:59] Ina Centaur: yes, which gives the state the right to use that stuff for whatever purpose
[20:34:41] Nakaima Oh: by state sponsored scientists
[20:34:32] Nakaima Oh: Today, for example, most of what we know about the brain is learned in universities
[20:34:28] Ina Centaur: and took her 10 years to publish it
[20:34:24] Ina Centaur: she wrote it in the 40s, i believe..
[20:34:07] Nakaima Oh: Oh yeah the 50s and the bomb. That makes sense.
[20:33:50] Jack Sondergaard: yes, the harmonizer is clearly like it
[20:33:25] Ina Centaur: i think Rand was reacting to research that was done on the atomic bomb
[20:33:12] Jack Sondergaard: what did Rand think of the space program?
[20:32:34] Diana Giugiaro: Or, that's how I percieve the attitude.
[20:32:07] Diana Giugiaro: A loose link can be very harmful.
[20:32:01] Diana Giugiaro: Things need to be tied together, a chain that pulls society.
[20:31:54] Nakaima Oh: In the US and Europe anyway
[20:31:51] Diana Giugiaro: Research, independant of other factors, can be dangerous.
[20:31:30] Nakaima Oh: Today, most research just to find out how things work is done in state sponsoered univer labs.
[20:31:28] Jack Sondergaard: and she thinks that the scientists should control who uses their research and for what purposes
[20:30:57] Ina Centaur: she values Stadler's cosmic ray theory, but the fact that he lets himself be prostituted by the state lowers him considerably
[20:30:36] Ina Centaur: as in Stadler's situation
[20:30:33] Ina Centaur: she thinks that research w/o considering the source of funding and conditions of research can be deadly
[20:30:26] Jack Sondergaard: not much
[20:30:01] Nakaima Oh: What does Rand think of pure research?
[20:29:28] Jack Sondergaard: they only interest seemed to be to keep getting funded, but not to actually produce anything useful
[20:28:34] Ina Centaur: they have their own version of what's practical
[20:28:26] Jack Sondergaard: except for the harmonizer
[20:28:11] Jack Sondergaard: the State Science Institute seemed to have no interest in technology or practical applications of science
[20:26:08] Jack Sondergaard: I think some of my co-workers operate by animation scripts
[20:25:16] Diana Giugiaro: I happen to be counting texture bumps in the celing, thank you very much
[20:24:40] Ina Centaur: lol yes
[20:24:21] Jack Sondergaard: just guessing
[20:24:15] Jack Sondergaard: probably the animation scripts in them
[20:22:49] Nakaima Oh: Why do these chairs make our eyes go all goofy? Or are we all just being thoughtful?
[20:20:20] Jack Sondergaard: strange, I can't get any web pages to load, but SL is working
[20:18:39] Diana Giugiaro: /me grins
[20:18:35] Ina Centaur: lol!
[20:18:11] Jack Sondergaard: in a factory where I worked, our favorite saying was, "it's too rational, management will never go for it"
[20:17:06] Jack Sondergaard: it's like how they kept saying fubar in Saving Private Ryan
[20:17:04] Nakaima Oh: Etc.?
[20:17:00] Nakaima Oh: What does it mean to live a meaningul life?
[20:16:52] Ina Centaur: i'm just copy/pasting the essay topic.. since it's interesting to discuss
[20:16:51] Nakaima Oh: Like how should the world be run?
[20:16:42] Nakaima Oh: I was remembering that the answer to the galt question was supposed to answer all the big quewstions.
[20:16:41] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:16:11] Jack Sondergaard: or that no one can change the way things are
[20:15:36] Jack Sondergaard: Who is John Galt in the book means no one can know the answer
[20:14:30] Nakaima Oh: Is that a pop quiz?
[20:12:39] Ina Centaur: For each of the following passages from Atlas Shrugged, explain its meaning, its relation to the story, and its wider significance. a) James Taggart: ?I don?t know [what the phrase ?Who is John Galt?? stands for] ? But the way people use it, they always seem to say it out of?? Dagny Taggart: ?Fear? Despair? Futility?? James Taggart: ?Yes ? yes, that?s what it is.? Dagny Taggart: ?That?s what I want to throw in their faces!? [Part 1, Chapter VII] b) Eddie Willers [to Dagny Taggart]: ?We can?t fight it. It can?t be answered. We can?t demand a retraction. We can?t show them our tests or prove anything. They?ve said nothing. They haven?t said a thing that could be refuted and embarrass them professionally. It?s the job of a coward. You?d expect it from some con-man or blackmailer. But, Dagny! It?s the State Science Institute!? [Part 1, Chapter VII] c) Francisco D?Anconia: ? ? why is it that throughout man?s history the Nat Taggarts, who make th
[20:12:22] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I can't bring up the aynrand site at all right now
[20:11:14] Nakaima Oh: It's probably just web traffic prob
[20:11:01] Nakaima Oh: That second one. education_contests_atlas
[20:10:44] Ina Centaur: or http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_contests_atlas
[20:10:36] Diana Giugiaro: I took an Amtrak once. It was empty, I was alone. Strange, strange feeling
[20:10:35] Ina Centaur: http://flickr.com/photos/ic-beauties ?
[20:09:45] Nakaima Oh: Ina I couldn't make that page you sent me come up. I'll bookmark and try latere.
[20:09:37] Ina Centaur: yes
[20:07:48] Jack Sondergaard: there are some railroads in SL
[20:07:46] Diana Giugiaro: Either legal or illegal.
[20:07:40] Diana Giugiaro: Regardless, I have no ice.
[20:07:35] Diana Giugiaro: Depends if you're using slang.
[20:06:35] Jack Sondergaard: I guess it would have to be dry ice
[20:06:22] Diana Giugiaro: /me checks inventory
[20:06:17] Diana Giugiaro: What kind of ice?
[20:05:26] Nakaima Oh: :)
[20:05:24] Jack Sondergaard: anyone have some ice?
[20:05:22] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:05:15] Jack Sondergaard: OK, we promise not to do anything to you while you are gone
[20:04:46] Nakaima Oh: Or you'd have joined the peace corps
[20:04:45] Jack Sondergaard: but I'm getting a late start
[20:04:39] Cera Jenkins: I'll be back in a little while, but I'll keep my character here so I can read the chat when I get back
[20:04:30] Jack Sondergaard: I wish I had read it as a teen, I'd probably be a business tycoon now
[20:04:12] Ina Centaur: it actually gets to you at all ages.
[20:04:06] Diana Giugiaro: I guess I'm the lone druggy here.
[20:03:48] Nakaima Oh: It the kind of book that really gets to you as a teen
[20:03:48] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[20:03:45] Diana Giugiaro: /me smiles
[20:03:25] Ina Centaur: with a cape and all
[20:03:23] Jack Sondergaard: fortunately, where I grew up, none of my friends were into drugs, so I wasn't even tempted with it
[20:03:15] Ina Centaur: lol i can somewhat imagine that ^.^
[20:01:46] Nakaima Oh: I would tend to do a superperson pose, stare off into space, and deliver a little speech about capitalism. He probably hoped I'd get into drugs.
[20:00:57] Jack Sondergaard: did you build a railroad, I've made a few model ones
[20:00:54] Ina Centaur: what's wrong with that pov though?
[20:00:12] Cera Jenkins: haha
[20:00:01] Nakaima Oh: Boy, that would be bad since I was all let's kick some ass and build a railroad. Drove him crazy. :)
[19:59:17] Ina Centaur: but, the thing is.. if you stick through re-reading the whole thing, you find yourself stuck in the same POV you had when you first read it.
[19:58:55] Ina Centaur: yes.
[19:58:52] Nakaima Oh: Don't you hate it when they're right?
[19:58:45] Ina Centaur: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_contests_atlas
[19:58:39] Nakaima Oh: My grandfather who read it in the 60s told me I would look at it differently after a few years.
[19:58:01] Ina Centaur: lol i guess we could discuss more essay topics
[19:57:42] Cera Jenkins: sorry SL crashed or something
[19:57:27] Nakaima Oh: Didn't finish it this time. Just popped in to see what you guys were saying.
[19:57:02] Nakaima Oh: I'd read it a few years ago.
[19:56:47] Ina Centaur: wb, cera
[19:56:43] Ina Centaur: nak, finished the novel?
[19:54:46] Nakaima Oh: :)
[19:54:37] Ina Centaur: more or less ^^
[19:54:27] Nakaima Oh: hi. Still talking about rand?
[19:54:25] Ina Centaur: hi nakaima
[19:54:15] Jack Sondergaard: hi Nakaima
[19:53:39] Diana Giugiaro: Down to the veins.
[19:53:34] Diana Giugiaro: The skin I'm using is supposed to be among the top.
[19:53:10] Ina Centaur: check out some cinematic pics taken with my IC-skins ^.~ the most realistic skins on SL
[19:52:58] Ina Centaur: http://flickr.com/photos/ic-beauties
[19:52:53] Ina Centaur: ooh diana...
[19:52:48] Diana Giugiaro: Or you can buy hair.
[19:52:41] Jack Sondergaard: edit appearance, I think
[19:52:29] Cera Jenkins: me too
[19:52:20] Jack Sondergaard: in real life, I have blonde hair
[19:52:10] Cera Jenkins: how do I get hair color?
[19:51:56] Diana Giugiaro: Which is odd, because I tend to complain about the lack of sureality in SL architecture.
[19:51:36] Diana Giugiaro: I've decided to stay with human avatars - to try to be as realistic as possible.
[19:50:58] Jack Sondergaard: I have hundreds of clothing items in my inventory, including some strange avatars
[19:50:32] Cera Jenkins: Jack, that would be cool if you did wear a cape in real life
[19:49:47] Diana Giugiaro: My other common outfit is my deadhead outfit. I just came from a jazz bar, so I was dressed for the occassion.
[19:48:36] Ina Centaur: find them in your inventory, and click wear
[19:48:32] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I never wear a cape in RL
[19:48:31] Diana Giugiaro: /me grins
[19:48:29] Diana Giugiaro: The black skimpy cocktail dress is an important weapon in any girl's closet.
[19:48:21] Cera Jenkins: Ina, I accepted the clothes, what do I do now
[19:48:17] Ina Centaur: it's kinda fun to dress up on SL otherwise ;-)
[19:48:09] Diana Giugiaro: Me? Sometimes, yes.
[19:48:06] Ina Centaur: hehe, some of my outfits are based on RL outfits
[19:48:05] Cera Jenkins: Diana I mean
[19:47:51] Cera Jenkins: I am just wondering, do you dress like that in real life?
[19:47:21] Ina Centaur: cera, i've just dropped you off a few items ^.~
[19:47:11] Cera Jenkins: Hello Diano
[19:47:09] Ina Centaur: hi, yes
[19:46:56] Diana Giugiaro: Hi, is this open to the public?
[19:46:43] Jack Sondergaard: hi Diana
[19:46:09] Ina Centaur: btw, sLiterary will be moving to a new island next month.
[19:46:01] Ina Centaur: hehe here's some sLiterary clothing
[19:45:46] Jack Sondergaard: just go to a store and buy some clothes and wear it
[19:45:37] Ina Centaur: maybe the world did not fully load for you yesterdsy ^.~
[19:45:35] Cera Jenkins: maybe just Ina then
[19:45:29] Ina Centaur: hehe
[19:45:21] Jack Sondergaard: hmm, I'm still wearing the same thing
[19:45:02] Cera Jenkins: how do you change your appearance?
[19:44:54] Cera Jenkins: you guys look different today than yesterday
[19:44:40] Jack Sondergaard: oh, OK
[19:44:32] Cera Jenkins: local in the student center
[19:44:25] Jack Sondergaard: a local meeting, or online?
[19:44:03] Jack Sondergaard: I didn't work the last 2 days, so didn't listen much, but I'll get back to it tomorrow
[19:43:44] Cera Jenkins: and found out when they're meeting
[19:43:35] Cera Jenkins: also got in touch with the pres of the Objectivist club on campus
[19:43:30] Jack Sondergaard: great
[19:43:22] Cera Jenkins: busy! I finished Atlas Shrugged though :)
[19:43:03] Jack Sondergaard: how was your day?
[19:42:11] Cera Jenkins: hey Jack
[19:42:04] Jack Sondergaard: hi Cera
[19:42:01] Jack Sondergaard: the realtor would like some movement, and Flash is hard for me to use, so I thought I would see if Flex would make it any easier
[19:40:22] Ina Centaur: probably not necessary...
[19:40:11] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[19:39:59] Ina Centaur: flex, as in Flash?
[19:37:04] Jack Sondergaard: I was planning on re-doing it with Flex, but I need to study it a lot more, and also go through all the other CS3 courses
[19:36:07] Jack Sondergaard: http://www.lambertsproperties.com/
[19:35:49] Ina Centaur: oh there's cera!
[19:35:23] Ina Centaur: which realtor site btw?
[19:35:18] Jack Sondergaard: it might require a lot of bandwidth
[19:34:58] Ina Centaur: hmm
[19:34:38] Jack Sondergaard: maybe for now, but I think they should be able to be overcome
[19:33:57] Ina Centaur: hmm there are performance issues that would not allow google earth to achieve that..
[19:33:11] Jack Sondergaard: I expect any day to see Google Earth to be able to work like Second Life, interactiing with other avatars all over the world
[19:31:38] Jack Sondergaard: it would make a good program to quickly generate all those links for a list of addresses
[19:29:17] Jack Sondergaard: I link all the properties to Google and Yahoo maps, and the commercial properties to images and links to Google Earth also
[19:28:05] Jack Sondergaard: I worked for several hours on a realtor's website today
[19:25:48] Jack Sondergaard: I need to see if they have a new version, I tried it about a year ago, but it kept crashing
[19:24:45] Ina Centaur: sketchup was not really designed for detail work
[19:24:37] Ina Centaur: yes
[19:22:53] Jack Sondergaard: according to the Google Earth website you are supposed to be able to walk around inside some buildings, but all the ones I saw were hollow
[19:22:17] Ina Centaur: if you go to siggraph, you can basically use their 3d printer in the guerilla studios
[19:21:55] Ina Centaur: yes
[19:20:29] Jack Sondergaard: yes, those are really neat, you can make some things that can't be manufactured any other way
[19:19:57] Ina Centaur: and there are 3d printers that allow you print 3d models
[19:19:46] Ina Centaur: yes
[19:19:43] Ina Centaur: hehe
[19:19:42] Jack Sondergaard: it would be great for monster making
[19:19:18] Jack Sondergaard: I plan in getting zbrush sometime, I used the demo a while
[19:18:24] Ina Centaur: yes, 300 was a showoff tech work
[19:18:00] Jack Sondergaard: id Maya what you use?
[19:17:48] Jack Sondergaard: all the graphics for it were done in Lightwave, and the actors were in front of bluescreens
[19:17:24] Ina Centaur: maya
[19:17:09] Jack Sondergaard: I like Lightwave, just watched 300 a couple of days ago
[19:16:27] Jack Sondergaard: yes, Second Life's tools for building aren't the best in the world, but a good start
[19:15:36] Ina Centaur: it is also much easier to build using sketchup than inworld tools
[19:15:29] Ina Centaur: yes, it's quite good
[19:15:11] Jack Sondergaard: and the detail on most of Google Earth is amazing
[19:13:46] Ina Centaur: yes the NY skyscrapers do look rather nice.
[19:13:32] Jack Sondergaard: I looked at a few in New York
[19:13:29] Ina Centaur: heh
[19:13:04] Jack Sondergaard: yesterday or the day before
[19:12:46] Ina Centaur: when did you post it?
[19:12:44] Ina Centaur: yes, the listing still works
[19:12:36] Ina Centaur: i have contributed a number of buildings to google earch via sketchup
[19:12:25] Jack Sondergaard: and did you click on Date and Today?
[19:11:56] Ina Centaur: yes
[19:11:53] Jack Sondergaard: did you do Search, Events, Discussion?
[19:11:49] Ina Centaur: cool
[19:11:28] Jack Sondergaard: I have been cruising around the world in Google Earth the last couple of hours
[19:11:14] Ina Centaur: the discussion listing -- can't find it in search..
[19:10:12] Jack Sondergaard: it went to the usual place, just outside
[19:09:08] Jack Sondergaard: I'm going to try it
[19:08:52] Ina Centaur: the event listing would TP to the wrong place
[19:08:47] Ina Centaur: nope
[19:08:37] Jack Sondergaard: the discussion is still listed
[19:08:23] Ina Centaur: other things
[19:07:32] Ina Centaur: place cannot be found in search
[19:07:24] Jack Sondergaard: what does that mean?
[19:07:07] Ina Centaur: /me sighs
[19:07:01] Ina Centaur: apparently this building has lost its parcel status
[19:06:49] Ina Centaur: hi
[19:06:46] Jack Sondergaard: hello
[11:26:42] Hastings Bournemouth: Hello Geo
[21:25:01] Ina Centaur: ;-)
[21:24:55] Jack Sondergaard: :)
[21:24:48] Ina Centaur: nite
[21:24:45] Ina Centaur: nbite
[21:24:41] Jack Sondergaard: good night
[21:24:36] Jack Sondergaard: OK, u2
[21:24:18] Ina Centaur: have fun
[21:24:17] Ina Centaur: ok
[21:22:40] Jack Sondergaard: and will keep adding to my new mindmap, at least a few hundred nodes
[21:22:06] Jack Sondergaard: well, I think I get back to studying, I am working through an algebra book
[21:21:45] Ina Centaur: @ the same time
[21:21:42] Ina Centaur: people all view the same thing
[21:21:40] Ina Centaur: as long as everyone presses play on the movie stream @ the same time
[21:21:24] Ina Centaur: 128 at least...
[21:21:20] Ina Centaur: yes..
[21:19:46] Jack Sondergaard: that probably isn't enough to really experience SL the way it should be
[21:19:14] Jack Sondergaard: mine has 32MB video RAM
[21:18:51] Jack Sondergaard: maybe I need a computer with a better graphics card
[21:18:10] Jack Sondergaard: but with the option that everyone in the room could look at the same notecard at the same time
[21:17:52] Ina Centaur: movies can be viewed at arbitrarily high quality
[21:17:47] Ina Centaur: yes, that's basically what i am saying
[21:16:31] Jack Sondergaard: a richtext type notecard would sure be nice too
[21:15:33] Jack Sondergaard: it would be higher quality if there was the option for a movie to be viewed like notcards are, in 2D
[21:14:39] Jack Sondergaard: but also because it is remapped from 2D to 3D
[21:14:21] Ina Centaur: depends on the stream quality
[21:14:17] Ina Centaur: the quicktime can potentially be played at arbitrary rez
[21:14:05] Ina Centaur: no, that's only because the quicktime is compressed at low-res
[21:13:47] Jack Sondergaard: yes, but the movies in SL play at low speed, low resolution
[21:12:45] Ina Centaur: that's sorta how vendor images work
[21:10:51] Jack Sondergaard: yes, and if you could focus in on a movie or document and fully rez it to the capability of the user's computer, it would be great.
[21:09:42] Ina Centaur: sl could potentially be used for a 3d flythrough like that
[21:09:28] Jack Sondergaard: so I don't think we have hardly bugun to scratch the surface of what we will see in the future in SL and places like this
[21:07:31] Jack Sondergaard: here's another place I found today, no longer maintained, but interesting: http://www.cybergeography.org/atlas/info_spaces.html
[21:04:48] Ina Centaur: they probably got rid of it as it was too confusing..
[21:04:21] Jack Sondergaard: I don't see that now
[21:01:47] Ina Centaur: they used to have a sort of mindmap flash app that connected different news topics
[21:01:43] Jack Sondergaard: I tried diagramming some call center software once, it was way too complicated for the mindmapping software I was using. I added hundreds of nodes, and that was just a small fraction of the software's interface
[21:01:35] Ina Centaur: yup
[21:00:15] Jack Sondergaard: I use CNET to download a lot of programs
[20:59:21] Ina Centaur: hmm ok..
[20:59:04] Jack Sondergaard: so I think it will be good for the big mindmaps I want to do
[20:58:43] Jack Sondergaard: and because it refocuses when you click on a node, it keeps most of it off-screen
[20:58:08] Jack Sondergaard: more than would fit on one page easily
[20:57:48] Jack Sondergaard: yes, but this will allow for thousands of nodes
[20:57:29] Ina Centaur: freeminds has the whole thing on 1 page
[20:57:21] Ina Centaur: the interface is kinda confusing.. you have to click to get to something
[20:57:18] Jack Sondergaard: I was looking at the CNET TV site earlier today
[20:57:07] Ina Centaur: not sure if i like this better
[20:55:12] Jack Sondergaard: I will look at it now
[20:54:46] Jack Sondergaard: I think the desktop is Java, just exports as AJAX
[20:54:31] Ina Centaur: have you seen the cnet.com news navigator?
[20:54:09] Jack Sondergaard: I should have a whole lot to add to that in the next few days
[20:54:06] Ina Centaur: basically you like the ajax interface
[20:52:00] Jack Sondergaard: here is what I just uploaded, written during our discussion tonight: http://hyperworlds.org/mindmaps/brain/MyBrain/index.html
[20:50:48] Jack Sondergaard: since it's dynamic
[20:50:48] Ina Centaur: why?
[20:50:40] Jack Sondergaard: I think this one is my new favorite
[20:47:45] Ina Centaur: how does thebrain compare?
[20:46:17] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I have that and lots of other mindmapping programs
[20:45:57] Ina Centaur: yes freemind
[20:45:56] Ina Centaur: that address needs a login
[20:45:50] Jack Sondergaard: freemind?
[20:45:40] Ina Centaur: have you seen the free software called mindmaps?
[20:44:27] Jack Sondergaard: but here's an example by someone else: http://sociate.thebrain.com/brainekp/
[20:42:59] Jack Sondergaard: I'm working on getting it uploaded now
[20:40:30] Ina Centaur: how would that work?
[20:40:28] Ina Centaur: cool
[20:40:09] Jack Sondergaard: so I am working on a mindmap that includes Objectivism as a branch
[20:39:19] Jack Sondergaard: it's been available for Windows for years, but is now on the Mac too
[20:38:51] Jack Sondergaard: Personal Brain
[20:38:43] Jack Sondergaard: http://www.thebrain.com/
[20:37:58] Ina Centaur: which?
[20:37:50] Jack Sondergaard: I installed some great software today
[20:37:40] Ina Centaur: interesting discussion :-)
[20:37:23] Jack Sondergaard: bye
[20:37:00] Ina Centaur: hehe np. feel free to join us again tomorow
[20:36:59] Cera Jenkins: I'll be back tomorrow night, hopefully!
[20:36:44] Cera Jenkins: I'm gonna sign off now and finish the book, along with a stack of homework I've been putting off all day
[20:36:41] Cera Jenkins: Ina, thanks for helping me find my way to this chat
[20:35:28] Jack Sondergaard: yes, got to buy votes by keeping people dependent on government programs
[20:35:27] Cera Jenkins: I think Ayn Rand's stance against those kind of ideas is what first got me interested in her
[20:34:39] Cera Jenkins: candidates don't stick to their values, in order to get votes, and officials are careful to be "pc"
[20:34:04] Cera Jenkins: the political currents today are pretty non-absolute too
[20:33:52] Jack Sondergaard: and that runs counter to post-modernism
[20:33:28] Jack Sondergaard: believed
[20:33:17] Jack Sondergaard: she believe in absolutes
[20:32:56] Cera Jenkins: why do you think professors don't like her today? besides the socialist ones
[20:32:18] Jack Sondergaard: there's still a lot of socialism among professors at the local Univ.
[20:31:34] Cera Jenkins: oh okay gotcha, back then there was a lot more lean toward socialism/collectivism
[20:31:28] Jack Sondergaard: the philosophy I learned in my philosophy courses were very narrowly focused, not even acknowledging any dissident views
[20:31:01] Ina Centaur: then again, many of the events of her novel are deja-vu-ish... they do reoccur in reality.
[20:30:42] Ina Centaur: MacCarthy era, etc.
[20:29:56] Cera Jenkins: how so?
[20:29:36] Ina Centaur: people were *more* like the villains in her book back then
[20:29:23] Ina Centaur: you'd notice that her views are even against our culture now -- although, i believe she's changed the US culture for the better
[20:29:04] Cera Jenkins: she brings up a lot of controversy
[20:28:59] Jack Sondergaard: "real" philosophers aren't "objectivists" ;)
[20:28:46] Ina Centaur: perhaps, also political reasons
[20:28:24] Cera Jenkins: I mean for why her books aren't taught at universities
[20:28:07] Cera Jenkins: because she is pseudo-philosophy? is that like saying she's not a real philosopher?
[20:27:50] Ina Centaur: hehe, jack, you haven't read Rand's nonfiction yet ;-)
[20:27:10] Ina Centaur: it's rare to find a course on her material in a university
[20:27:06] Jack Sondergaard: if you think she is long winded try reading Kant or Aristotle
[20:26:59] Cera Jenkins: what do you mean?
[20:26:49] Ina Centaur: yes, well, Rand is technically considered pseudo-philosophy
[20:26:24] Ina Centaur: then again, maybe she did it for political reasons... dunno, have it as part of her AR legend ;-)
[20:26:19] Jack Sondergaard: yes, the first time I listened to A. S. it was the abridged version, and it left out most of the best parts of the book
[20:26:08] Cera Jenkins: pretty philosophy heavy
[20:25:57] Ina Centaur: yes, much of it is just repetitive rhetoric
[20:25:54] Cera Jenkins: it's pretty long
[20:25:47] Cera Jenkins: I can see why
[20:25:25] Ina Centaur: every editor she approached wanted her to edit -- especailly Galt's Speech
[20:25:13] Ina Centaur: w/o edits
[20:25:11] Ina Centaur: yes. Rand suffered a 10 year war trying to get her novel published as is
[20:24:49] Cera Jenkins: I mean, I don't think A.S. is the best thing I've ever read, but it's ideas are some of the best
[20:24:19] Cera Jenkins: what do you think of Ayn Rand, from a purely literary point of view?
[20:23:37] Cera Jenkins: I mean, it's already pretty big... and it would have been even bigger, had she say, included Los Angeles
[20:23:06] Cera Jenkins: perhaps she consciously narrowed the scope of the book
[20:23:02] Jack Sondergaard: yes, NY is kept running by the nationwide supply chain
[20:22:02] Cera Jenkins: that's a good point
[20:21:50] Ina Centaur: (ironically, just last summer, NY had a 6-hour blackout ;-P )
[20:21:34] Ina Centaur: i think Rand had an obssessive belief with NY being the center of the world or something.. and that when NY loses electricity, that's when the end would come
[20:21:07] Ina Centaur: Galt has an arbitrary condition for when they go back -- when the lights of NY go out
[20:20:54] Ina Centaur: (lol,there could be an entire couse on " problems with a.s." ...
[20:20:43] Ina Centaur: then again it's not really much of an ending...
[20:20:12] Cera Jenkins: haha
[20:19:13] Jack Sondergaard: oh, sorry
[20:19:03] Ina Centaur: hehe.. don't give the spoiler yet^.~
[20:18:43] Ina Centaur: yes, again, they are subject to whether the triumvarite or another Gulcher finds them
[20:18:30] Jack Sondergaard: the main purpose of it was for the leaders of the producers to remove themselves from the world, so all would see what would happen with them gone
[20:17:21] Cera Jenkins: right, there were a couple dozen "ordinary people" in the Gulch, but the vast majority of them didn't make it
[20:17:13] Jack Sondergaard: and a mother and her children
[20:16:34] Jack Sondergaard: there was a truck driver at the Gulch
[20:15:53] Cera Jenkins: they have only the choice between suffering and death, whereas the big names get to escape to Galt's Gulch
[20:15:19] Cera Jenkins: because they are tied to the villains
[20:14:56] Cera Jenkins: okay, what do you think she is saying about everymen? Theirs is not the best position
[20:14:36] Ina Centaur: they can't survive w/o the heroes; they get used by the villains
[20:14:12] Ina Centaur: cheryll and Eddie -- they're everymen
[20:14:06] Ina Centaur: but, i think she wanted to make a distinction between heroes, villains, and everymen
[20:13:56] Ina Centaur: i'm not sure whether Rand was trying to make a point with the limitations of just the triumvarite handpicking people
[20:12:33] Ina Centaur: dan conway - phoenix-durango
[20:12:26] Ina Centaur: i think the triumvarite only gets the major names in the media. dan's trial was, i believe, a silent trial
[20:12:18] Jack Sondergaard: who was he?
[20:12:02] Ina Centaur: nope; he was one of those who just disappeared
[20:11:49] Cera Jenkins: sorry, I thought Dan was made it... was he not in Galt's Gulch?
[20:11:15] Ina Centaur: for example -- dan conway
[20:11:07] Jack Sondergaard: I suppose she said to herself, give me liberty or give me death
[20:11:03] Ina Centaur: yes, the triumvarite's system does miss many people
[20:10:33] Cera Jenkins: I've got a problem accepting that people like Cherryl have to suffer just because they weren't handpicked by Galt or Francisco or Ragnar
[20:09:45] Cera Jenkins: she reached the kind of clarity that would allow admission into Galt's Gulch, but no destroyer came to her aid
[20:08:58] Ina Centaur: well, i guess similar things can be said of the montana farmers
[20:08:39] Cera Jenkins: and saying, just like the men who disappeared to Galt's Gulch, that she would not deliver herself to their hands
[20:08:16] Cera Jenkins: she wasn't blanking out, she was fully recognizing her position
[20:07:51] Cera Jenkins: I think she chose death as maybe ultimate defiance of the world of the looters
[20:06:22] Ina Centaur: in a world where your only two choices are to be used/abused or die... i suppose the latter would be the only sort of freedom one can get.
[20:06:19] Jack Sondergaard: I think the strikers recognized the futility of sanctioning their own victumization
[20:05:47] Ina Centaur: maybe that was her intent; and this is something of a viaticum for her
[20:05:33] Cera Jenkins: right, so you think she almost didn't realize she was committing suicide?
[20:05:07] Ina Centaur: nevertheless, not being observant of the ditch one's running into...
[20:04:52] Ina Centaur: i know that she's not thinking reality would bend according to her whims... that the pier and water wouldn't disappear if she doesn't acknowledge them
[20:04:34] Ina Centaur: well, taking the matter down a level, to just the physical... the fact that she ran blindly, not looking at her surroundings
[20:03:52] Ina Centaur: she basically runs, this streak through the city... and then skyrockets off a pier
[20:03:44] Cera Jenkins: is recognizing the futility of one's possible actions toward a certain situation the same as "blanking out"?
[20:03:06] Ina Centaur: kinda reminiscient of the montana farmers?
[20:02:58] Ina Centaur: blindly...
[20:02:57] Ina Centaur: hmmm think about how she ran
[20:02:43] Cera Jenkins: I don't think her death was just
[20:02:36] Cera Jenkins: but Cherryl died because she did see
[20:01:42] Ina Centaur: even Eddie and Cheryl...
[20:01:32] Ina Centaur: the montana farmers... so they basically run into ditches and die -- well, they "blank out" ... which can only lead to death
[20:01:09] Jack Sondergaard: yes, that was a refusal to acknowledge cause and effect
[20:01:00] Ina Centaur: the casualties of the tunnel wreck... it's mentioned that every single one of them believe in the 'morality of death'
[20:00:46] Ina Centaur: in A.S., no one dies unjustly
[20:00:39] Ina Centaur: but what's interesting is...
[20:00:36] Ina Centaur: yes...
[19:59:54] Cera Jenkins: and instead just try to make sure they aren't the ones who will be blamed when what they know will happen, happens
[19:59:32] Cera Jenkins: Kip Chalmers and all the people who refuse to recognize the danger of running a coal engine through a tunnel without the proper ventilation systems
[19:58:44] Cera Jenkins: the first one that comes to my mind is the collapse of the Taggart Tunnel
[19:57:16] Ina Centaur: every single one of them has roots in "blank out"
[19:57:07] Ina Centaur: i'd basically trace the catastrophes
[19:57:00] Ina Centaur: my pov for topic 1
[19:56:59] Jack Sondergaard: and thinking means being rational and calling things what they really are
[19:56:48] Ina Centaur: yes
[19:56:01] Jack Sondergaard: yes, the greatest evil is not to think
[19:54:42] Cera Jenkins: where they are decieving themselves and others
[19:54:28] Cera Jenkins: also included in Galt's definiton of justice is the courage to see things as they truly are, rather than "blank out" like so many of the villains in the book do
[19:53:15] Ina Centaur: conventional justice: needers
[19:53:11] Cera Jenkins: right
[19:53:05] Ina Centaur: galt's justice: traders
[19:52:35] Ina Centaur: *Ragnar
[19:52:08] Jack Sondergaard: he takes the stolen property from the looters and returns it to the rightful owners
[19:51:33] Jack Sondergaard: Ranyard is the anti-Robin Hood in the novel
[19:50:38] Cera Jenkins: rather than being "traders"
[19:50:34] Jack Sondergaard: to take from those who produce by thought and muscle and give to those who take at the point of a "gun"
[19:50:24] Cera Jenkins: yeah, the people being quick to assert that their need justifies their getting what they want from those whose ability makes it all possible
[19:49:39] Jack Sondergaard: injustice is personified by Robin Hood
[19:49:05] Jack Sondergaard: I think it's a popular idea that many people have that they should get a lot of things for free, but Rand says if you want anything you must earn, build, or trade value for it
[19:48:41] Ina Centaur: ok, is that morality or justice?
[19:48:15] Cera Jenkins: um I think, in the book at least, that justice is defined as the strong giving in to the weak
[19:48:13] Ina Centaur: yup; one must not ignore reality
[19:47:52] Cera Jenkins: "Justice is the recognition of the fact that you cannot fake the character of men as you cannot fake the character of nature"--Galt p 933
[19:47:11] Ina Centaur: hum, first of all, what do you think is the popularly accepted concept of justice?
[19:46:52] Cera Jenkins: I'm not sure how to start on that question; I think the book redefines the popularly accepted concept of justice with the one that Galt advocates
[19:44:06] Ina Centaur: topic 1 is my fave so far: A considerable part of the story of Atlas Shrugged deals with issues of justice. What is the account of justice that emerges in the novel? How does it compare to other, culturally-influential accounts of justice?
[19:43:55] Ina Centaur: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_contests_atlas
[19:43:39] Jack Sondergaard: I know that one essay topic is justice, are there others?
[19:43:02] Cera Jenkins: I haven't been keeping up with the logs so I don't know where you are
[19:42:37] Cera Jenkins: I don't want to talk about whatever you've already discussed, though
[19:42:24] Cera Jenkins: well I'd love to talk about the essays
[19:41:40] Ina Centaur: hehe, yes, p
[19:41:28] Ina Centaur: or pretty much anything ^.~
[19:41:25] Jack Sondergaard: yes, those are the subjects favored by several characters in the book
[19:41:22] Ina Centaur: if you'd like, we can discuss the essay topics
[19:39:58] Ina Centaur: and, of course, i studied physics and philosophy
[19:39:51] Ina Centaur: i have a habit of always re-reading A.S. every August :-)
[19:39:50] Jack Sondergaard: but just this month listened to A. S. unabridged
[19:39:24] Jack Sondergaard: I read some of Ayn Rand years ago
[19:38:56] Cera Jenkins: so what brings you to the Atlas Shrugged discussion?
[19:38:37] Jack Sondergaard: many odd jobs
[19:38:00] Cera Jenkins: what did you do after that?
[19:37:48] Jack Sondergaard: I majored in philosophy for a year
[19:37:44] Cera Jenkins: I'm pretty excited
[19:37:36] Jack Sondergaard: cool
[19:37:30] Cera Jenkins: neuroscience/philosophy
[19:37:28] Ina Centaur: major(s)
[19:37:22] Ina Centaur: cool. chosen a major yet?
[19:36:52] Cera Jenkins: freshman in college
[19:36:29] Ina Centaur: you?
[19:36:28] Ina Centaur: i'm a bit younger ;-)
[19:36:21] Jack Sondergaard: I'm 52
[19:34:58] Cera Jenkins: I don't know if I'm permitted to ask this, but how old are you guys?
[19:34:29] Cera Jenkins: oh yeah I was looking at those today
[19:34:20] Ina Centaur: we've discussed a lot, including some of the essay topics for this year's contests
[19:34:13] Jack Sondergaard: it's varied a lot from night to night
[19:34:12] Cera Jenkins: yeah it's pretty intense
[19:34:04] Ina Centaur: hehe you're in the middle of Galt's speech
[19:33:37] Jack Sondergaard: I am nearly done listening for the 2nd time through
[19:33:22] Cera Jenkins: what have you been discussing so far?
[19:33:18] Jack Sondergaard: OK
[19:33:06] Cera Jenkins: so please no spoilers
[19:33:01] Cera Jenkins: I am on pg.941 of 1069
[19:32:42] Ina Centaur: cera, have you finished the novel?
[19:32:31] Jack Sondergaard: yes, everything gets added to the page instantly
[19:31:55] Ina Centaur: it's a rather large file... and not everything is totally relevant. heh
[19:31:43] Ina Centaur: yes, http://slchatr.com/group/sliterary/longhouse has been recording the chats since 8/1
[19:31:23] Cera Jenkins: is there any way to view the entire chat at one time rather than line by line?
[19:30:44] Jack Sondergaard: but I've thought about it
[19:30:31] Jack Sondergaard: I suppose there are other chats about Atlas Shrugged, I just haven't looked for them yet
[19:29:17] Ina Centaur: hehe, press ctrl-H to view chat history
[19:28:48] Ina Centaur: but still as accessible to everyone from around the world with a computer
[19:28:46] Cera Jenkins: why this, why not some other chat that is less elaborate?
[19:28:35] Ina Centaur: it's slightly more personal than plain text chat
[19:28:28] Ina Centaur: for the most part, we are just using SL as a 3d chat room to discuss th novel
[19:28:24] Cera Jenkins: it's werid that my character makes typing motions
[19:28:18] Ina Centaur: congrats^^
[19:28:08] Cera Jenkins: hah I sat down
[19:27:12] Jack Sondergaard: right click on chair
[19:26:47] Jack Sondergaard: use your arrow keys
[19:26:46] Ina Centaur: try clicking on the chairs, select sit
[19:26:39] Jack Sondergaard: cool
[19:26:38] Ina Centaur: cera, we are basically in a virtual log cabin right now
[19:26:33] Cera Jenkins: how do I move?
[19:26:28] Ina Centaur: jack, cera is a new recruit from the web from one of the objectivists groups :-)
[19:25:50] Jack Sondergaard: I guessed you did
[19:25:49] Ina Centaur: hehe
[19:25:44] Cera Jenkins: this is so weird haha
[19:25:31] Ina Centaur: (thanks jack; crashed)
[19:25:30] Jack Sondergaard: hi Cera
[19:25:28] Ina Centaur: welcome to Atlas Shrugged Discussions
[19:25:26] Jack Sondergaard: wb Ina
[19:25:24] Cera Jenkins: hi
[19:25:22] Ina Centaur: hi cera :-)
[19:14:59] Jack Sondergaard: I added "longhouse" to my Mute List, I will see if that works
[19:09:58] Jack Sondergaard: how do I mute it?
[19:08:58] Jack Sondergaard: yes, it does, quite often
[19:08:40] Ina Centaur: then it should be spouting out the URL periodically
[19:08:21] Jack Sondergaard: no
[19:08:07] Ina Centaur: muted
[19:07:01] Jack Sondergaard: blocked?
[19:06:51] Ina Centaur: http://slchatr.com/group/sliterary/longhouse
[19:06:46] Ina Centaur: yes, have you blocked longhouse yet?
[19:06:39] Ina Centaur: yup.. except i guess it's confusing
[19:06:37] Jack Sondergaard: sort of a library
[19:06:30] Jack Sondergaard: that's a good idea
[19:05:29] Ina Centaur: the plan for having the house record things.. so that people could find earlier discussions
[19:05:12] Ina Centaur: i think so..
[19:05:06] Jack Sondergaard: did they come at the wrong time?
[19:03:41] Ina Centaur: got an email from an objectivist group that someone tried to get in here for the discussion
[19:02:50] Jack Sondergaard: hi
[19:02:23] Ina Centaur: hi!
[13:14:30] Leslye Writer: Knotty, this folder is empty that I got from the Critique mailbox.
[21:31:49] Deanna Bebb: I'm okay with that
[21:12:57] Andreams Sautereau: ok
[21:12:47] Ina Centaur: atlas shrugged discussions ... http://calendar.sliterary.com
[21:12:35] Andreams Sautereau: what's happening?
[21:12:21] Andreams Sautereau: hi
[21:12:17] Ina Centaur: hi andreams
[21:11:56] Ina Centaur: tc jack
[21:11:50] Jack Sondergaard: bye
[21:11:27] Jack Sondergaard: OK, I will, it shouldn't be hard on a Mac
[21:11:02] Ina Centaur: please tell me how you set it up!
[21:10:58] Ina Centaur: all setup on 1 computer...
[21:10:56] Ina Centaur: and if you get those 3 o/s
[21:10:52] Ina Centaur: oh..
[21:10:51] Ina Centaur: nite jack...
[21:10:35] Jack Sondergaard: so good night until tomorrow
[21:10:20] Jack Sondergaard: a friend brought over a movie, 300, so I think I will watch it now
[21:09:33] Jack Sondergaard: I got the discussion announced for the rest of the month
[21:07:39] Jack Sondergaard: when I get a new Mac with an Intel inside, I'll set it up to run Windows, Mac, and Linux, then I can try everything out
[21:05:50] Ina Centaur: supposedly gives you libraries and libraries of stuff that allows old tasks to be done quicker
[21:05:32] Ina Centaur: you should check out mono. .NET is supposed to be the *revolution*
[21:04:24] Jack Sondergaard: how are you tonight?
[21:02:11] Ina Centaur: hi deanna!
[21:02:10] Jack Sondergaard: hi Deanna
[21:02:06] Deanna Bebb: Hi!
[20:58:10] Jack Sondergaard: I have heard of mono, but haven't looked at it yet
[20:57:42] Ina Centaur: i think there's a port of .net for mac... mono for linux
[20:56:23] Jack Sondergaard: I use a Mac, so any Windows only languages aren't for me, I want what I write to be cross-platform anyway
[20:55:28] Ina Centaur: they are saying that of the .NET api's
[20:54:11] Jack Sondergaard: because Rebol can do the most with the least amount of code
[20:53:48] Jack Sondergaard: I have some pages I have done with PHP, but haven't studied it in depth yet
[20:53:43] Ina Centaur: why is rebol your fave?
[20:52:55] Jack Sondergaard: mainly because all of them are good for internet programming, fairly easy to learn
[20:52:37] Ina Centaur: my fave language is PHP... but that's because i use it almost everyday, and was once the language with the most net tutorials ;-)
[20:52:08] Ina Centaur: why?
[20:50:51] Jack Sondergaard: it's my favorite language, with Python and Revolution tying for second
[20:49:27] Ina Centaur: hum. never heard of rebol
[20:48:57] Jack Sondergaard: a complete re-write of the language is now in alpha, should be out in beta very soon
[20:48:16] Jack Sondergaard: the language I am going to try using for some experiments is Rebol
[20:46:22] Jack Sondergaard: so it would have many things in common with a lot of the new Web 2.0 tools, but some unique tools of it's own
[20:45:21] Jack Sondergaard: for publishing both free and for sale documents of any media, with filterable visible links between spans of anything, allowing unlimited reuse by having permission to reuse granted in advance
[20:43:12] Ina Centaur: i.e., content is often just a txt file.. and php grabs
[20:43:01] Ina Centaur: yes, CSS and PHP allows for separation of presentation from content
[20:42:39] Jack Sondergaard: one of the main features in Xanadu will be to separate the method of presentation from the content, so many ways of displaying the same things could be tried out
[20:42:39] Ina Centaur: i.e., the programming details aside, how would the program be used?
[20:41:05] Ina Centaur: but i am not sure how it would be implemented
[20:41:01] Ina Centaur: yes, an organized comparison of differing viewpoints would be useful
[20:39:38] Jack Sondergaard: but I'm concentrating on learning math and programming now, so I can contribute some code
[20:38:18] Jack Sondergaard: really complete study
[20:37:56] Jack Sondergaard: I need to do a really study of wikis and how they compare with Xanadu, I know that Xanadu, when completed will be a more complete system, especially allowing for the cross-comparison of differring viewpoints
[20:34:51] Ina Centaur: because of the series of mass edits
[20:34:34] Ina Centaur: yes, i've more or less stopped contributing
[20:33:49] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I use the wikipedia a lot for reference
[20:33:22] Ina Centaur: and the # of patrolling admins on W grows exponentially.
[20:33:11] Ina Centaur: *yes, and also several protection features ahve been implemented; such as newbies aren't allowed to edit certain high-traffic entries, etc.
[20:32:25] Ina Centaur: (keep in mind taht this is all php, and only works for single articles)
[20:32:14] Ina Centaur: so there's version compare (which more or less works) to compare different versions for differences side by side
[20:32:01] Ina Centaur: W lets anyone edit stuff.. but that could mean some griefer comes in and wipes everything out.. or surreptitiously wipe out just parts of a doc
[20:31:37] Ina Centaur: yes, and have you seen wikipedia's version compare?
[20:29:53] Jack Sondergaard: I'm reading about it now, looks very interesting
[20:26:33] Ina Centaur: http://docs.google.com
[20:25:17] Jack Sondergaard: I haven't heard of writely/google docs, I will check it out
[20:22:43] Ina Centaur: and ms word also has a similar feature
[20:22:35] Ina Centaur: similar to writely/google docs
[20:22:29] Ina Centaur: What if: I could edit and browse a document, work collaboratively on it with others while keeping track of who wrote what and freely sharing everything, compare all parts of every saved version of a document. I could have links; they would be bi-directional through time; they would be span to span instead of point to document or point; they wouldn't break because of file, server, and directory name changes. Any form of data could be freely mixed and viewed in any conceivable form: plain text, styled text, floating sub-windows with filtered and selected differing types of links, audio, video, images, layers, timelines, freeform mindmaps, outlines, webs, grids, mathematical animations, VR, gesture interfaces, mixed human and machine intelligence,
[20:21:36] Jack Sondergaard: for instance if this chat were taking place in Xanadu, each participant could be viewed as a separate column with visible lines to other comments, sentences of books, segments of a movie, etc.
[20:17:32] Jack Sondergaard: that is one small aspect of it, but there is much more
[20:16:25] Ina Centaur: so basically it comopares 2 different drafts and highlights the clauses that are teh same?
[20:15:46] Jack Sondergaard: one of the reasons I am trying to improve my math skills is to use it in programming
[20:14:49] Jack Sondergaard: so far, by my website: http://hyperworlds.org
[20:14:23] Ina Centaur: how?
[20:14:02] Jack Sondergaard: but one of the things I am personally going to do is to promote the design of software that facilitates better communication of reasoned discussion
[20:12:42] Jack Sondergaard: I am not sure yet, that is something for me to learn the rest of my life
[20:12:03] Ina Centaur: yes; how would you have someone unlearn them?
[20:11:57] Jack Sondergaard: I have to work hard to find the truth, it's not easy to find in a culture that does not value it
[20:10:41] Jack Sondergaard: I keep hoping that the facts of reality will impose these truths into the minds of most people, but so many people have learned bad habits of unreason
[20:08:59] Jack Sondergaard: I didn't really learn these things myself until I read Rand, I had been so brainwashed by school, the media, and many of the people I worked with
[20:08:29] Ina Centaur: how would it persist?
[20:07:03] Jack Sondergaard: so it must begin with the application of reason to money, it's value, and the meaning of work and cause and effect
[20:06:20] Jack Sondergaard: as long as people expect to get something for nothing, they won't see the real value of their work, and the value of paying their own way in the world
[20:05:43] [IC-furniture] 1-prim Ornate Bookshelf with Books and Vases: Touched.
[20:05:36] [IC-furniture] 1-prim Ornate Bookshelf with Books and Vases: Touched.
[20:05:09] Jack Sondergaard: I think the first thing that would have to happen is a new appreciation of the value of work and business, something that is regularly disparaged by most modern movies, tv shows, and intellectuals
[20:03:43] Ina Centaur: btw, how do you think an ideal society would run? and how would it attempt to continue running that way?
[20:03:29] Ina Centaur: yes
[20:03:16] Jack Sondergaard: and speaking of dependence and corruption, there is the dependence of the lazy getting free handouts from polititions who cater to them to get elected
[20:01:35] Jack Sondergaard: I don't know, I will have to think about it after I finish the book again
[20:00:44] Ina Centaur: how do you think part 4 chapter 1 of A.S. might go, then?
[20:00:12] Jack Sondergaard: but to run the world would mean for the government to control business, exactly what he was fighting against
[19:58:52] Ina Centaur: would assume his plan is to run the world
[19:58:35] Ina Centaur: well, i guess the world. his whole plan was to destroy the villains' regime so that heroes can go back and rebuild
[19:58:09] Ina Centaur: not the world, per se
[19:57:49] Jack Sondergaard: but did Galt plan on taking over the world?
[19:57:19] Ina Centaur: the villains sacrifice their minds to depend on the heroes
[19:57:13] Jack Sondergaard: and anytime you have government control of business, that is centralized power
[19:57:11] Ina Centaur: i think, it's rather, dependence that creates corruption
[19:57:01] Ina Centaur: hmm if galt took over the world, wouldn't it be centralized power, still?
[19:56:39] Jack Sondergaard: one of the themes of A.S. is that centralized power creates the conditions for corruption
[19:55:54] Ina Centaur: singapore runs on a meritocracy, but is not w/o its crruptions
[19:55:43] Jack Sondergaard: that was a few years ago, I wonder if it has changed
[19:55:06] Jack Sondergaard: I have heard that in the modern world, that Singapore is the most capitalistic place in the world, and one of the richest
[19:53:59] Jack Sondergaard: yes, we produced, Europe bought
[19:53:23] Jack Sondergaard: too bad all that production was spent on destruction, rather than building, but certain people made that a necessity
[19:53:04] Ina Centaur: yes. it helped save the usa from the depression
[19:51:00] Jack Sondergaard: it really show how massive was the industrial production needed to win WW2, it was staggering
[19:50:13] Jack Sondergaard: there's also a very good miniseries about WW2 and the importance of ships, called Victory At Sea
[19:48:41] Jack Sondergaard: I think at first it wasn't so much about oil, but the use of internal combustion engines proved to be key to winning battles
[19:47:37] Jack Sondergaard: The Prize
[19:47:36] Ina Centaur: well, i don't think ww1 was about oil.. but oil was what powered the machines...
[19:47:22] Jack Sondergaard: it seems a key battle in France involved a "taxi armada"
[19:47:15] Ina Centaur: which book?
[19:44:24] Jack Sondergaard: from chapter 9, "It was a war that was fought between men and machines. And these machines were powered by oil..."
[19:41:46] Jack Sondergaard: I'm looking now
[19:40:32] Ina Centaur: how did oil relate to WW1?
[19:40:25] Ina Centaur: lol.. in A.S. it was the mind-based engine of the world that everyone wanted.. in RL, it's a natural resource engine o_O
[19:40:20] Jack Sondergaard: yes, Rommel was his general there
[19:39:55] Ina Centaur: hitler was in the middle east?
[19:39:43] Jack Sondergaard: more than anything, Hitler wanted control of the world's oil supply
[19:38:59] Jack Sondergaard: but especially WW2
[19:38:41] Jack Sondergaard: yes, WW1 also
[19:38:33] Jack Sondergaard: lately I have been thinking about a coal fired steam car, I wonder if it could be done cleanly
[19:37:57] Ina Centaur: even ww1?
[19:36:48] Jack Sondergaard: it shows that oil was a major factor in all the wars of the 20th century
[19:36:43] Ina Centaur: yes, what's the big story on oil?
[19:36:30] Ina Centaur: oh
[19:35:20] Jack Sondergaard: the history of oil
[19:35:13] Jack Sondergaard: but I haven't watched tv the past few years, been too busy studying
[19:35:05] Ina Centaur: no, what is the prize about?
[19:34:20] Jack Sondergaard: yes, a TV channel, they have gone downhill in the last few years
[19:33:47] Jack Sondergaard: have you seen the miniseries "The Prize"?
[19:33:38] Ina Centaur: is that a channel?
[19:31:57] Jack Sondergaard: Arts and Entertainment
[19:31:45] Ina Centaur: a
[19:31:41] Ina Centaur: they've tentatively postponed the movie production though
[19:31:37] Jack Sondergaard: maybe as an A
[19:30:53] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I don't think it could be done well in 2 hours
[19:29:56] Ina Centaur: i think the movie version might work out better as a trilogy
[19:29:37] Ina Centaur: but didn't get to finish
[19:28:26] Ina Centaur: yes. rand tried adapting it into a TV series
[19:28:17] Jack Sondergaard: I'll look for it
[19:28:06] Jack Sondergaard: it would be a tough job to write the screenplay for this book
[19:27:49] Ina Centaur: cool. any idea when galt's justice speech went on?
[19:27:10] Jack Sondergaard: OK, finished reading the timeline page
[19:16:40] Ina Centaur: galt was the first face she swa in the gulch
[19:15:01] Jack Sondergaard: http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-22-1710-AtlasShruggedTimeline.aspx
[19:14:59] Jack Sondergaard: I found a timeline, I'm looking at it now
[19:14:38] Jack Sondergaard: I need to reread it again to get it all, but it was about the injustice of those who stole from the producers of the world
[19:14:13] Ina Centaur: i don't think Galt actually talks to Dagny before Gulch..
[19:12:48] Ina Centaur: humm in what context?
[19:10:31] Jack Sondergaard: I don't remember exactly what he said in his first speech, but I think it was about justice
[19:09:38] Ina Centaur: hmm the one where he explains the oath everyone has to say?
[19:09:36] Jack Sondergaard: he said he knew her
[19:09:18] Jack Sondergaard: what was Galt before Dagney met him at the Gulch?
[19:08:05] Jack Sondergaard: after Dagney crashes
[19:07:41] Jack Sondergaard: I am going to highlight all my favorite parts of the book
[19:07:40] Ina Centaur: his first one?
[19:06:56] Jack Sondergaard: yes, and his first speech is a good one too
[19:06:26] Ina Centaur: cool. i am rereading galt's speech a couple of times
[19:06:03] Jack Sondergaard: I'm about 3/4 of the way through the book the second time
[19:05:20] Jack Sondergaard: hello
[19:05:16] Ina Centaur: hi!
[18:30:14] Phoebe Wright: ao on
[16:28:26] Tab Underwood: Ina, there is a rent box still on my loft space
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[21:26:43] Jack Sondergaard: u2
[21:26:39] Ina Centaur: tc!
[21:26:37] Ina Centaur: nite jack
[21:26:32] Jack Sondergaard: well good night, see you tomorrow
[21:25:56] Ina Centaur: cool.
[21:25:23] Jack Sondergaard: sometimes I also subscribe to Lynda and VTC
[21:24:58] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[21:24:51] Jack Sondergaard: http://safari.informit.com
[21:24:48] Ina Centaur: do you have a safari subscription?
[21:24:28] Jack Sondergaard: I read a lot at the Safari Bookshelf
[21:24:06] Jack Sondergaard: I need to brush up on it again myself
[21:23:49] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[21:23:03] Ina Centaur: unexpected bonus ;-)
[21:23:01] Ina Centaur: learned some db theory.
[21:22:55] Ina Centaur: interesting discussion
[21:22:44] Ina Centaur: nite jack
[21:22:23] Jack Sondergaard: I didn't get much last night
[21:22:09] Ina Centaur: it's quite fun. you might want to try it sometimes^^
[21:22:09] Jack Sondergaard: well, I think I will get some sleep
[21:20:30] Jack Sondergaard: oh, I haven't tried it yet myself
[21:20:11] Ina Centaur: since.. that way even if you don't know the tune that well, you can more or less sing along
[21:20:02] Ina Centaur: jack but what's fun about karoke is when the lines come up right before the music
[21:19:43] Deanna Bebb: Ok, I'll think about it :)
[21:19:21] Jack Sondergaard: you could put the words on a notecard
[21:19:19] Ina Centaur: en actually held some in LA
[21:19:01] Ina Centaur: btw, feel free to hold your own auditions
[21:18:47] Ina Centaur: ok, tc deanna -... and...
[21:18:40] Ina Centaur: and more or less, estimating when each line of words should be displayed
[21:18:36] Deanna Bebb: Well, I still have some audition clips to listen. So, bye now :)
[21:18:32] Ina Centaur: so... karaoke is just about timing the song
[21:18:23] Ina Centaur: yes, voice is a feature on SL
[21:17:11] Jack Sondergaard: that should be interesting
[21:17:04] Deanna Bebb: Cool :)
[21:16:51] Ina Centaur: yes, one of the things i am setting up is SL Karaoke ^^
[21:16:26] Deanna Bebb: I usually don't sing karaoke but now I did it...
[21:15:50] Ina Centaur: cool :-)
[21:15:35] Deanna Bebb: Just fine. I attended a birthday party with my daughter. It was fun
[21:14:43] Ina Centaur: yours?
[21:14:42] Ina Centaur: hectic. makes life exciting ;-P
[21:14:29] Ina Centaur: weekend was fun.. i think ^.~
[21:14:11] Ina Centaur: but collaborative chat-database-chat might work..
[21:14:02] Deanna Bebb: So, how was your weekend?
[21:14:00] Ina Centaur: jack: collaborative notecards are not possible in an organized way yet..
[21:13:51] Deanna Bebb: Yep
[21:13:43] Ina Centaur: we are 10 hours behind i guess :-|
[21:13:31] Ina Centaur: http://timeanddate.com
[21:13:14] Deanna Bebb: Cos it's tuesday morning here in Finland :)
[21:13:11] Jack Sondergaard: it would be nice to have collaborative notecards, rezzing wouldn't be a problem with them
[21:13:00] Ina Centaur: hehe i notice that you dropped by at 10 ;-)
[21:12:45] Deanna Bebb: Just wanted to check out it that it wasen't today :)
[21:12:24] Ina Centaur: hmm i think the meeting for Hamlet would be about 24 hours from now.. hehe it is only monday
[21:11:35] Ina Centaur: hi deanna!
[21:11:17] Jack Sondergaard: hi Deanna
[21:11:09] Deanna Bebb: Hi u all
[21:10:57] Jack Sondergaard: for online meetings, screen sharing, audio and video chat
[21:10:53] Ina Centaur: macromedia captivate?
[21:10:30] Jack Sondergaard: Adobe has a really good program, Acrobat Connect
[21:10:01] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[21:09:29] Ina Centaur: and i guess people can rez prims to point at a particular thing
[21:09:20] Ina Centaur: but shows a simple idea of how everyone can drop images into a displayer
[21:08:59] Ina Centaur: this actually isn't as useful as i'd expected it to be
[21:06:13] WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 5/5 - paraglider
[21:06:11] WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 5/5 - paraglider
[21:05:54] Slide Show: No entry - returning to active mode
[21:05:52] WhiteBoard (e): ABCD - four choice grid
[21:05:44] Slide Show: Please tell me in seconds how long between each slide, Ina Centaur
[21:05:29] Slide Show: No entry - returning to active mode
[21:05:27] WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 5/5 - paraglider
[21:05:24] WhiteBoard (e): Ina Centaur is deleting image: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000
[21:05:19] Slide Show: Please tell me in seconds how long between each slide, Ina Centaur
[21:05:06] WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 5/5 - paraglider
[21:05:04] Slide Show: No entry - returning to active mode
[21:04:59] WhiteBoard (e): World Map
[21:04:54] Slide Show: Please tell me in seconds how long between each slide, Ina Centaur
[21:04:50] WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 5/5 - paraglider
[21:04:45] WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 4/5 - [ic-beauties] urban jared
[21:04:39] WhiteBoard (e): Tic Tac Toe
[21:04:31] WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 3/5 - 3. Overlay Tools
[21:04:18] WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 2/5 - 2. Slideshow Controls
[21:03:56] WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 2/4 - 2. Slideshow Controls
[21:03:26] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I am reading the instructions now
[21:02:44] Ina Centaur: did you see the giant board i rezzed?
[21:02:40] Ina Centaur: yes
[21:02:02] Ina Centaur: cool way of re-targeting (resizing)
[21:01:54] Ina Centaur: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082201seamcarvingimageresizing.asp
[20:59:16] Jack Sondergaard: there are some collaborative editors that do something like that
[20:59:01] Tool Rezzer: Interactive Whiteboard by Meta-Lab - version 1.0
[20:59:01] WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 1/4 - 1. Welcome
[20:58:28] Jack Sondergaard: and be able to put up a chapter of AS, then highlight favorite quotes, add comments, draw timelines, etc.
[20:57:19] Jack Sondergaard: it would be nice to have a shared whiteboard in SL
[20:51:02] Ina Centaur: ok..
[20:49:51] Jack Sondergaard: I will read some of the case studies on the website
[20:47:42] Jack Sondergaard: I don't know, but I think they could be fast
[20:47:16] Ina Centaur: they may be faster to write.... but performance-wise, are they faster?
[20:46:49] Ina Centaur: interesting..
[20:45:59] Jack Sondergaard: in other words, you could create tables from the data, not just pull data from tables
[20:45:14] Jack Sondergaard: you could still design views that show what keys are used in the database
[20:44:15] Jack Sondergaard: you just request all records with FavoriteColor in them
[20:44:01] Ina Centaur: but it's still search/match
[20:43:57] Ina Centaur: it's easier if there are flatfile keys
[20:43:48] Ina Centaur: usually, a db does a search and match system
[20:43:36] Ina Centaur: problem is, how would it fetch?
[20:43:17] Jack Sondergaard: in an associative database, if one person wanted in their record that their favorite color was blue, you would just add FavoriteColor:blue, and that would apply to just their record, not all 5 million records in the database
[20:40:57] Ina Centaur: :-|
[20:39:01] Jack Sondergaard: and since some of them were selling scams, I quit
[20:38:31] Jack Sondergaard: I took calls for about 70 different companies
[20:37:48] Jack Sondergaard: didn't do any good
[20:37:38] Ina Centaur: or submit complaints and petitions?
[20:37:25] Ina Centaur: :-|
[20:36:25] Jack Sondergaard: we were trained monkeys
[20:35:56] Jack Sondergaard: except that we had no access to changing the database structure, and weren't even allowed to talk to the programmers, or even know who they were
[20:35:12] Ina Centaur: and key it into the ID of the main table
[20:35:05] Ina Centaur: could easily create a new table
[20:33:54] Jack Sondergaard: customers were always giving us information that would have been good to add to their record, but there was no place to put it
[20:33:08] Jack Sondergaard: it was a badly designed structure, but there were many other problems too
[20:31:23] Ina Centaur: do you mean it's the fetching that's bad?
[20:31:19] Ina Centaur: hmm.. not sure why that's the db that's bad
[20:30:36] Jack Sondergaard: the only database I know of that is associative is Sentences, but I read recently that some big company, maybe Google, was using an associative database
[20:29:16] Jack Sondergaard: one database was so badly designed, it required we get all their credit card info before we could give them any prices or other information, so we usually just filled that in a some bogus numbers to get past it, then had to go back and change it if they ordered
[20:28:54] Ina Centaur: what language would associative db's be?
[20:28:43] Ina Centaur: but.. i guess SQL i the old language?
[20:28:35] Ina Centaur: is a good and fun place to learn SQL
[20:28:27] Ina Centaur: http://sqlzoo.net
[20:28:16] Ina Centaur: e
[20:28:15] Ina Centaur: databases, if well-designed, are generally quite flexiblc
[20:27:01] Jack Sondergaard: I remember when I worked at a call center, that the interaction with customers was very constrained by the database we used, there was no flexibility
[20:25:35] Jack Sondergaard: most of the information I think about is not so ridgid, so I use mindmapping software a lot
[20:24:48] Jack Sondergaard: I have Filemaker, but have used it only a little so far
[20:24:30] Ina Centaur: they help you visually see the foreign keys, joins etc
[20:24:12] Ina Centaur: yes, you can use visual software like mysql designer
[20:23:57] Ina Centaur: i guess i am too used to relational database statements.
[20:23:56] Jack Sondergaard: anyway, I want to learn to make visible connections between the same keys in different records
[20:23:21] Ina Centaur: it's hard to make sense of..
[20:23:00] Jack Sondergaard: I think key value pairs is the correct terminology
[20:22:15] Jack Sondergaard: it is similar to the dictionary datatype in Python
[20:21:45] Jack Sondergaard: in an associative database, you don't even really have tables, you can create them from the data if you need them
[20:20:39] Jack Sondergaard: yes, much more flexible, you can find lots of info about it at http://lazysoft.com/
[20:20:16] Ina Centaur: select * from table .. would adapt to select column1 from table .. .if only col1 is filled?
[20:20:00] Ina Centaur: are you saying that associative are adaptive?
[20:19:42] Ina Centaur: to limit selections of colunns..
[20:19:35] Ina Centaur: in a relational, you can select column1, coulumn 3, colun 8 (etc) from table
[20:19:18] Ina Centaur: hmm not sure the difference
[20:18:46] Jack Sondergaard: to join various databases, you just look for the records in each database that have the variables you are looking for, such as firstname and lastname
[20:17:15] Jack Sondergaard: in a relational and the other older types, if even one record needs 500 columns, then all records will have 500 columns, even if most of them need just 5
[20:16:33] Ina Centaur: how does the amalgammation work?
[20:15:47] Jack Sondergaard: but in an associative db, one record could have 3 values, and the next record 300
[20:15:03] Jack Sondergaard: that would be true in a relational database
[20:15:02] Ina Centaur: column name: row
[20:14:48] Jack Sondergaard: no
[20:14:42] Jack Sondergaard: and each record can have only the data it needs
[20:14:37] Ina Centaur: column:row ?
[20:14:17] Jack Sondergaard: in an associative database, you have a lot of variable:value pairs for each record, like firstname:Bob
[20:12:26] Jack Sondergaard: that's the most common type of database now used
[20:11:55] Jack Sondergaard: it is good for highly structured data sets that usually don't change structure
[20:11:08] Jack Sondergaard: and you select one field to connect to another field in a different table
[20:10:35] Jack Sondergaard: where each record has the same type and length of fields as all the others in a table, the tables are like the individual spreadsheets
[20:09:40] Jack Sondergaard: relational is like a set of connected spreadsheets
[20:07:34] Ina Centaur: can you summarize the difference between each?
[20:06:59] Jack Sondergaard: a lot of it is very ridgid, for good reasons, I suppose, but it makes doing some things difficult
[20:05:23] Ina Centaur: hmm. i've never really studied database theory. i just know how to program/use the db's
[20:04:37] Jack Sondergaard: there is a new type of database, called Associative, that is a lot more flexible that Relational, Object, and the others
[20:03:38] Jack Sondergaard: eventually, we will probably have all the locations in the book here in SL
[20:03:12] Ina Centaur: hmmm. usually, a db solution is chosen, and stuck with.
[20:01:18] Jack Sondergaard: primarily in getting different databases designed to be more easily connected
[20:00:03] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I think there will be a lot of progress in databases in the near future
[19:58:54] Ina Centaur: it's mostly connecting databases or joining tables
[19:58:31] Jack Sondergaard: it's about algorithms for social networking software
[19:58:21] Ina Centaur: hum how?
[19:58:04] Jack Sondergaard: including one book called "Programming Collective Intelligence"
[19:56:37] Ina Centaur: cool
[19:56:11] Jack Sondergaard: so I'm studying math and other programming topics
[19:55:36] Jack Sondergaard: not sure yet what to do to improve it, I have lots of ideas, but I'm still trying to learn to program
[19:53:21] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I have often thought about that
[19:52:32] Ina Centaur: or a 3d world, rather
[19:52:19] Ina Centaur: hum, btw do you see this as a waste of "3d chat" .. like just sitting around and textchatting?
[19:51:44] Ina Centaur: :-|
[19:50:32] Jack Sondergaard: no, no one else has been here
[19:49:38] Ina Centaur: any interesting discussions start an die in the past hour?
[19:48:33] Jack Sondergaard: hi
[19:48:26] Ina Centaur: hi jack!
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[19:20:16] Ina Centaur: test
[18:16:38] Zimmy Zuhal: calls God ands CUT THE SHIT
[18:16:00] Zimmy Zuhal: kk
[18:15:57] Th30th3rm3 Zinner: brb
[18:15:56] Th30th3rm3 Zinner: going to shelter now
[18:15:52] Th30th3rm3 Zinner: tornado
[18:15:24] Zimmy Zuhal: someones in our house
[18:15:12] Zimmy Zuhal: yes
[18:15:10] Th30th3rm3 Zinner: hold on
[18:15:08] Th30th3rm3 Zinner: we're getting a warning beacon
[18:15:01] Th30th3rm3 Zinner: uh oh
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[22:47:47] Dawkins Slade: hello world!
[21:57:49] AdBoard - sLiterary dispenser (1 prim): Your issue of sLiterary Magazine is now being delivered to you.
[21:55:35] Ina Centaur: tc~
[21:55:26] Jack Sondergaard: bye
[21:55:14] Jack Sondergaard: I will try it out
[21:55:03] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[21:54:57] Ina Centaur: did you get a copy?
[21:54:55] Ina Centaur: room of one's own that is..
[21:54:54] Jack Sondergaard: oh, OK
[21:54:44] Ina Centaur: btw the book works ;-)
[21:52:42] Jack Sondergaard: OK
[21:52:35] Ina Centaur: your choice
[21:52:23] Jack Sondergaard: do you want it to read the same?
[21:52:17] Ina Centaur: thanks :-D
[21:52:11] Ina Centaur: sure; free free, jack :-)
[21:52:02] Jack Sondergaard: good night Ina, do you want me to go ahead and post the announcement for tomorrow night?
[21:51:16] Jack Sondergaard: I just noticed, haha
[21:51:10] Ina Centaur: "was really lagging. world did nto load
[21:51:01] Ina Centaur: have i been sitting here the whole time btw?
[21:50:57] Ina Centaur: lol
[21:50:46] Mh Price: g'night
[21:50:43] Mh Price: thanks for lettting me crash the party everyone
[21:50:28] Jack Sondergaard: good night everyone
[21:50:21] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I better get some sleep too
[21:49:55] Middy Mysterio: anyway i am tired, thankls for the discussion. gnite
[21:49:23] Middy Mysterio: thats shopping i think jack
[21:48:04] Middy Mysterio: its about getting a desired effect...there are various methods
[21:47:29] Middy Mysterio: sure is
[21:47:24] Mh Price: flirting is manipulation too
[21:47:07] Middy Mysterio: dropping hints on a bday...thats manipulation too
[21:47:00] Mh Price: opt-in advertising
[21:46:41] Jack Sondergaard: sometimes, like in the Yellow Pages or web pages, the consumers look for the ads
[21:46:28] Middy Mysterio: persuasion is one form of manipulation
[21:46:18] Mh Price: they are hired to make consumers aware of something
[21:46:05] Mh Price: but not of their own accord...
[21:45:44] Jack Sondergaard: they make consumers aware of something that is produced
[21:45:36] Mh Price: that's right Jack
[21:45:28] Middy Mysterio: right ok
[21:45:23] Mh Price: advertising is one form of marketing
[21:45:14] Jack Sondergaard: they act as go-betweens between producers and consumers
[21:45:03] Middy Mysterio: maerketing is different than advertising. how, im not sure.
[21:44:47] Mh Price: they neither produce nor consume
[21:44:37] Mh Price: so their role is that of bottom dweller
[21:44:06] Jack Sondergaard: mostly what they do is promote brand name recognition, so people get used to saying "go to the store and buy some Cokes"
[21:44:00] Mh Price: and most ad agencies, i would imagine, have very little care as to the value of the product
[21:43:59] Middy Mysterio: you can get a desired effect with no persuasion
[21:43:46] Dawkins Slade: calling somebody persuasive is a compliment :)
[21:43:34] Dawkins Slade: that has a neutral or even a good connotation
[21:43:24] Dawkins Slade: maybe "persuasion" is a better word
[21:43:16] Mh Price: the ad agency has no say as to the product itself
[21:42:47] Middy Mysterio: but subtley doing it is an artform;)
[21:42:44] Mh Price: the point is that an ad agency gets hired by a company to manipulate people to buy a specific product
[21:42:18] Dawkins Slade: yeah, calling someone manipulative is an insult
[21:42:00] Mh Price: agreed
[21:41:50] Jack Sondergaard: that's probably a correct denotation, but the word still has a connotation that is similar to coercion
[21:41:30] Mh Price: heehee
[21:41:21] Middy Mysterio: i need to go out and manipualte the goats
[21:41:07] Mh Price: kinda like herding
[21:40:43] Mh Price: manipulation is the utilization fo their will to nudge them in a slightly new direction
[21:40:18] Mh Price: coercion is against their will
[21:39:34] Middy Mysterio: convince might be a nicver term
[21:38:54] Jack Sondergaard: or deception
[21:38:44] Mh Price: at least that's my thought
[21:38:40] Jack Sondergaard: manipulation implies forcing someone against their will
[21:38:25] Mh Price: correct Dawkins
[21:38:06] Mh Price: why wouldn't you call a communication manipulation?
[21:38:03] Dawkins Slade: that's what I was saying. but I think what Mh is saying is that that's incidental. an ad agency picks up a job irrespective of whether it's good for society or not
[21:37:34] Jack Sondergaard: I wouldn't call all communication manipulation, that word has a generally bad connotation
[21:37:06] Mh Price: agreed
[21:36:54] Jack Sondergaard: when products are manufactured, to be sold, people need to know about them, so all marketing isn't bad
[21:36:34] Mh Price: good point Middy
[21:36:17] Middy Mysterio: are we all manipulating each other right now...trying to concinve one another of a point. trying to change others minds. nothing wrong with it.
[21:36:16] Dawkins Slade: yeah, I agree. it has to be evaluated on a case-by-case, job-by-job basis
[21:36:16] Mh Price: they are a-ethical
[21:36:06] Mh Price: The marketers are in business to make money
[21:35:50] Mh Price: I would imagine that the same ad agency that does the Bud spots also does the "buckle up" spots
[21:35:05] Dawkins Slade: maybe I'm just quibbling here, but aren't certain marketers good, and certain ones bad? it's marketers in general who are neither good or bad as a whole
[21:35:02] Middy Mysterio: yes, but is that the marketers fault or joes?
[21:34:54] Jack Sondergaard: we all? isn't that a little too broad?
[21:34:19] Middy Mysterio: actual deception is rare, and in fact illegal...manipulatio n is common and we all do it every day
[21:34:16] Mh Price: it's only bad if Joe is drinking a case of bud instead of working
[21:33:32] Mh Price: it's the people who hire and manipulate the marketers that she is concerned with
[21:33:27] Jack Sondergaard: in a free market, free speech is perhaps the best deterrent to marketing deception
[21:32:56] Middy Mysterio: and thinks about sports heroes
[21:32:52] Mh Price: they are neither good nor bad -- they just are
[21:32:43] Middy Mysterio: is it bad that joe schmoe enjoys his buidweiser?
[21:32:41] Mh Price: For Rand -- Marketers simply exist
[21:32:32] Dawkins Slade: in which case the wealth they create is "ill-gotten"
[21:32:31] Mh Price: right
[21:32:14] Dawkins Slade: I think it goes right back to our previous topic, marketers can be good or bad in Rand's system. good if they provide a needed service that cannot be provided by anyone else, bad when they market stuff people don't need by deceiving them into thinking otherwise
[21:32:04] Ina Centaur: :-D
[21:32:01] Mh Price: :-)
[21:32:00] Ina Centaur: " for all intents and purposes, it is corporate masturbation "
[21:31:58] Middy Mysterio: thanks
[21:31:57] Mh Price: it's yours
[21:31:53] Mh Price: keeep it
[21:31:46] Middy Mysterio: i like that phrase
[21:31:42] Middy Mysterio: haha
[21:31:33] Mh Price: for all intents and purposes, it is corporate masturbation
[21:31:13] Mh Price: so my stand against drunkeness has made no difference
[21:30:53] Middy Mysterio: shit i work for government, its a way of life
[21:30:49] Mh Price: If I were a marketer, I might not deal in booze -- but you might
[21:30:31] Jack Sondergaard: I have quit several jobs because I was asked to promote scams
[21:30:06] Middy Mysterio: i will not do X work or Y work
[21:29:53] Middy Mysterio: do you do that in your regular job too?
[21:29:48] Mh Price: Sure Jack -- but what about all the other marketers
[21:29:18] Mh Price: saddly -- the industy has co-opted that as well
[21:29:12] Jack Sondergaard: If I was a marketer, the first thing I would do is to specify what products I would not promote, and what methods I would not use, and make that very clear to potential clients
[21:29:03] Middy Mysterio: pssst, mcdonalds sells a great burger
[21:28:59] Mh Price: There is a whole branch of marketers called "word of mouth" marketing
[21:28:26] Middy Mysterio: what about marketing down without marketers. just word of mouth. it that more acceptable?
[21:27:58] Mh Price: That's a good point Jack
[21:27:29] Jack Sondergaard: I think she would put some accountability on them, like she does on the scientists who don't sell their inventions for evil purposes
[21:27:28] Middy Mysterio: without marketers there is no mass product. I dont get it
[21:27:02] Mh Price: exatly -- as a Fountainhead fan
[21:27:01] Dawkins Slade: but they still contribute, do they not? they provide a service that an inventor might not necessarily be able to do himself, by convincing people to buy it
[21:26:44] Ina Centaur: Gail Wynand, i guess
[21:26:05] Mh Price: for Rand-- I believe -- they are the lowest contributors to society
[21:25:30] Mh Price: and have no say in whether the contribution is valuable or not
[21:25:11] Mh Price: they profit from others contributions
[21:24:55] Mh Price: in the Rand world --Marketers are neither good nor evil -- they merely exist
[21:24:13] Dawkins Slade: all of them are, or only certain ones
[21:24:10] Jack Sondergaard: like in the movie "Seargent York", he finally kills, but it's to save lives
[21:23:41] Mh Price: They are the scavangers that, while not actually producing anything of value, still profit from others
[21:23:26] Middy Mysterio: fun ny statement
[21:23:18] Middy Mysterio: if i was a soldier i would kill unless it was obviously morally wrong
[21:23:09] Mh Price: she points to marketers as a subculture
[21:22:58] Jack Sondergaard: about 2AM it's supposed to make people more attractive, so say the country songs
[21:22:53] Mh Price: that's not Rands point at all
[21:22:38] Ina Centaur: *different case, but same issue of personal principle.
[21:22:25] Ina Centaur: anyway, according to Rand, the marketer should quit his job if there are conflicts of ethics. take it to a different case; would you kill if your job requires it?
[21:21:53] Mh Price: and none of us believe that drinking Bud will make us more attractive
[21:21:43] Ina Centaur: brave new world..
[21:21:40] Jack Sondergaard: no, it can be found in many places, but isn't justified unless needed for a greater cause, like saving lives
[21:21:33] Mh Price: right Middy
[21:21:15] Middy Mysterio: its makes us feel good
[21:21:14] Mh Price: the question -- I suppose -- is "is that wrong?"
[21:20:57] Middy Mysterio: i believe it mh, we all know its skewed but we want our Bud just the same
[21:20:53] Mh Price: everyone knows that a commercial for a product overblows the actual product
[21:20:20] Middy Mysterio: we all have ethical values in our jobs and in life
[21:20:12] Mh Price: there is a 70 year study that suggests that people have always known that advertising is skewed
[21:19:41] Middy Mysterio: lying and deceiving people is not unique to markerers
[21:19:01] Jack Sondergaard: I think the main thing is, "is there deception in the marketing"?, like implying that the public water supply in dangerous when it rarely is, to sell high-priced bottled water
[21:18:59] Mh Price: the goal of the marketer is to satisfy the desires of their client
[21:18:50] Ina Centaur: should the marketer quit his assigned job over issues of ethics (i.e., won't market a bad product even if that's job)?
[21:18:33] Ina Centaur: what is the marketer's goal?
[21:18:28] Middy Mysterio: yes they are just as culpable as the producer
[21:18:26] Ina Centaur: well, let's define the goal of the marketer first
[21:17:51] Mh Price: the question -- in the Rand sence -- is whether or not the marketer is culpable
[21:17:11] Middy Mysterio: hiring a marketer and the marketer themselves..who cares. its about selling the product to consumers
[21:16:59] Ina Centaur: the ability to sell hot air for the price of oil.
[21:16:54] Dawkins Slade: which is similar to a product
[21:16:54] Ina Centaur: yes, but that is considered the most elite of marketing
[21:16:52] Jack Sondergaard: SL is a "need" I didn't have until it was created
[21:16:52] Mh Price: do you think the marketers have the ability to tell their clients -- "you're product is bad for society"
[21:16:26] Dawkins Slade: but aren't they providing a service
[21:16:10] Dawkins Slade: it's good when the product actually is useful, bad when it's generating artificial demand for an artificial need
[21:15:56] Mh Price: marketers do not make products -- they are hired by companies that make products like coke and winston and kettle one
[21:15:41] Dawkins Slade: but we got to considering the consumer/marketer dynamic when we were talking about when is marketing a good thing and when is it bad
[21:15:18] Jack Sondergaard: I remember reading in many economics books that the first thing said was that economics does not have anything to do with ethics, that has changed recently, though
[21:15:09] Middy Mysterio: to quote another book: ignorance is bliss
[21:14:30] Mh Price: it is between product maker and marketer
[21:14:15] Mh Price: the dynamic is not between marketers and consumer
[21:14:10] Middy Mysterio: its helping them yes. its filling a space in their brain and it make sthem happy to drinkl their cola
[21:14:00] Mh Price: I think you are playing a "pedantic" card that is not actually relevant here
[21:13:51] Dawkins Slade: american consumers can't be entirely let off the hook for allowing things to get this far in the first place
[21:13:47] Ina Centaur: .. keep in mind there are cases like drugs and such, where that might not be the case...
[21:13:33] Middy Mysterio: ignorance is a nice way to say stupid people. Stupid people will always make stupid decuisions
[21:13:23] Ina Centaur: middy, so basically, telling the ignorant "oh you must love product X..." is helping them?
[21:13:15] Dawkins Slade: I think there's plenty of blame to go aaround
[21:13:09] Mh Price: right -- but it takes someone to hire the marketers to actually create marketers
[21:12:44] Dawkins Slade: I think it's a chicken-and-egg situation. marketers lead to a materialistic, consumer-driven culture, which leads to more marketing
[21:12:35] Middy Mysterio: well, you can argue that it is helping the ignorant discover something they love
[21:11:49] Mh Price: do you blame the agency or the company that hires them?
[21:11:37] Jack Sondergaard: exploitation by taking advantage of ignorance, promoting it, is to victumize others, which Rand oposed
[21:11:35] Mh Price: remember -- budweiser hires and agency to sell their product
[21:11:07] Dawkins Slade: lol
[21:11:02] Middy Mysterio: things go better with coke
[21:10:58] Mh Price: and you think that's the marketers instead of their clients
[21:10:57] Dawkins Slade: consumption for consumption's sake
[21:10:51] Middy Mysterio: well thats true, i agree with that
[21:10:34] Dawkins Slade: no, I think the U.S. is a prime example of a culture where marketers have gone nuts, making people believe they need things they don't actually need
[21:10:08] Mh Price: ok
[21:10:01] Middy Mysterio: the people = the market...its hetting circular
[21:10:00] Jack Sondergaard: but if you exploit ignorance for your unfair gain, that is bad
[21:09:51] Ina Centaur: ...
[21:09:48] Mh Price: market smokes well and...
[21:09:39] Ina Centaur: "the people" -- who is "the people" ?
[21:09:34] Mh Price: take Winston for example
[21:09:29] Ina Centaur: individual good vs collective good. fuzziness again
[21:09:26] Middy Mysterio: giving the people what they want is good, isnt it?
[21:09:22] Ina Centaur: what is the good -- and for whom?
[21:09:16] Ina Centaur: yeah but then we run into value judgments
[21:08:55] Mh Price: marketing poeple do a service only if what they are marketing is "good" for the world around them
[21:08:49] Jack Sondergaard: in the book, the harmonizer (very similar to nucleur weapons) is a bad invention
[21:08:22] Mh Price: that's the point
[21:08:10] Ina Centaur: yes, but the question is -- do you want people to use it
[21:08:04] Dawkins Slade: which is where marketing people do an actual service
[21:07:41] Dawkins Slade: just because you have the knowhow to make something spiffy, doesn't necessarily mean you know how to market it so people will appreciate it and want to use it
[21:07:08] Mh Price: or a negative if it simply allows the "non-producers" to reap wealth off the backs of the real producers
[21:06:43] Jack Sondergaard: Rand defended making money by writing, she did that herself
[21:06:24] Dawkins Slade: mass marketing can be seen as a positive creation, bringing into being ways of transmitting a product to everyone
[21:06:09] Middy Mysterio: sorry , whats galts engine? (or maybe thats the point.)
[21:06:05] Ina Centaur: -- because he chose to keep it that way... in the paradigm of A.S., were he to release it to the world, it would just help the looters continue to destroy the heroes
[21:05:37] Ina Centaur: middy, Galt's engine stayed in obscurity though..
[21:05:34] Jack Sondergaard: I read one business book by Gates, it was actually quite good
[21:05:12] Mh Price: that does not count as much of an achievement for an Objectivist
[21:04:52] Dawkins Slade: lord, how many will he have written by the time he dies, a hundred
[21:04:46] Ina Centaur: lol i think he writes dozens of them and makes a small fortune from them ;-)
[21:04:38] Middy Mysterio: inventing something is different then mass marketing it. an invention that stays in your garage is hardly noble
[21:04:30] Dawkins Slade: he has more than one?
[21:04:19] Ina Centaur: so you don't recommend one of Gates' own autobios?
[21:04:03] Ina Centaur: lol the cover with the legoman heads...
[21:03:52] Dawkins Slade: as opposed to generating wealth by stealing or taking advantage of people
[21:03:51] Mh Price: Microserfs :-)
[21:03:40] Dawkins Slade: people who generate wealth by bringing new things into the world that did not exist before
[21:03:29] Ina Centaur: /me is very rusty on microsoft history/gates biography -- recommend a good book?
[21:03:11] Jack Sondergaard: do you mean Geos?
[21:03:02] Dawkins Slade: she seems to value novelty. people who are able to create new things, new ways of doing things
[21:02:59] Middy Mysterio: that is gates
[21:02:58] Jack Sondergaard: I thought Palm bought BeOS
[21:02:53] Middy Mysterio: she put a lot of importance of inventors, who made labor saving machines and tools that benefitted everyone
[21:02:51] Ina Centaur: i'm saying Gates, in that respect, would be seen as Randian villain
[21:02:40] Mh Price: unlike Gates how???
[21:02:39] Ina Centaur: Gates did something like that with BeOS
[21:02:26] Ina Centaur: Taggart basically destroys his competition and then offers to purchase their rails
[21:02:11] Ina Centaur: no..
[21:01:57] Mh Price: same as Taggart, yes???
[21:01:35] Mh Price: the Rand focus on Gates, therefore, is not what everyone else benefits from his compan, but rather the individual achievement
[21:00:55] Ina Centaur: no, mh... even for the excelling of one individual's achievement, destructive competition is something Rand would not approve of... in her novel, James Taggart does just that and is seen as a villain
[21:00:36] Jack Sondergaard: but communism also advocates the forced redistribution of wealth, which she opposed
[21:00:32] Middy Mysterio: the method and fact that he got rich should and can be separated from the labor saving improvements he is responsble for bringing to :everyman"
[21:00:26] Dawkins Slade: that's different
[21:00:26] Mh Price: exactly
[21:00:19] Dawkins Slade: ah, yes. the emphasis on individuality
[21:00:07] Mh Price: good point -- except for the fact that her Objectivist beliefs stess the individual and push toward great achievments by "common" people
[20:59:19] Jack Sondergaard: although many people believe Gates got rich by deceptive methods to gain a monopoly, which she would not approve of
[20:59:13] Dawkins Slade: which practically worships the "common worker"
[20:58:57] Dawkins Slade: that's interesting that she puts that much emphasis on the everyman, I'd think she'd be wary of that coming from communism
[20:58:08] Mh Price: to follow up on that point, it would seem that Rand (both in Atlas and in Fountainhead) is actually calling for the "everyman" to rise to her/his potential greatness and, in doing so, change the culture around them
[20:57:34] Middy Mysterio: she would love bill gates
[20:57:18] Dawkins Slade: I think jared diamond might be an ayn rand fan. in his book Guns Germs and Steels he defines all modern systems of government as "kleptocracies", where a small minority of producers supports everybody else, who leeches off them
[20:56:59] Ina Centaur: and farmers, etc., just jumping off ditches
[20:56:48] Jack Sondergaard: she put a lot of importance of inventors, who made labor saving machines and tools that benefitted everyone
[20:56:44] Ina Centaur: so in atlas shrugged.. you have eddy willers perishing out in the middle of nowhere when his heroes have gone...
[20:56:23] Ina Centaur: *v
[20:56:15] Ina Centaur: she also believes that everymen cannot survie w/o the heroes
[20:56:09] Ina Centaur: but then..
[20:55:22] Dawkins Slade: in that respect, at least
[20:55:11] Dawkins Slade: yeah, she's a little more subtle than nietzsche
[20:54:32] Mh Price: that is to say that a person is defined by their individual achievments
[20:54:00] Mh Price: actualy her "everyman" hero is the foundation of her "objectivist belief system
[20:53:44] Ina Centaur: and, unlike Nieszche, she doesn't justify royal families etc on virtue of royalty... she fights for the producers on virtue of their ability to produce -- the fact that everyone else depends on their productivity
[20:53:43] Middy Mysterio: social darwinism kind of
[20:53:28] Dawkins Slade: if they can rule, then they should rule
[20:52:59] Middy Mysterio: what do you mean "by right"?
[20:52:50] Ina Centaur: everymen, producer-heroes, looter-villains
[20:52:39] Ina Centaur: well, Rand also has the everymen
[20:52:12] Dawkins Slade: both seem to believe that humanity falls into two classes, an elite class that rules by right and everyone else
[20:51:47] Middy Mysterio: god is dead
[20:51:27] Middy Mysterio: people are people, and even the most powerrful people can be overrun with emotions and illogical ideas
[20:51:06] Dawkins Slade: does anybody see parallels between ayn rand and nietzsche
[20:50:50] Ina Centaur: conflicting whims
[20:50:42] Ina Centaur: wars, even
[20:50:40] Ina Centaur: hence why we have disputes
[20:50:37] Ina Centaur: yes, i think many of those in power go by whims and fancies
[20:50:18] Ina Centaur: hmm
[20:50:07] Middy Mysterio: ok
[20:49:30] Middy Mysterio: to me it means the world is run on whims and fancies
[20:48:59] Middy Mysterio: atlas shrugged is agreat metaphor...what does it mean to you?
[20:48:33] Ina Centaur: rather deja-vuish
[20:48:28] Ina Centaur: events, etc
[20:48:26] Ina Centaur: many of the books topics
[20:48:24] Jack Sondergaard: I heard you say "I hear you"
[20:48:23] Ina Centaur: oh yes...
[20:48:02] Dawkins Slade: I keep talking in voice but nobody answers
[20:47:58] Middy Mysterio: is the book relevant to todays world?
[20:47:46] Dawkins Slade: I do
[20:47:25] Middy Mysterio: i think people are doing voice or something
[20:47:15] Middy Mysterio: i was just in Ahern noobieville
[20:46:47] Middy Mysterio: im here to discuss anythibng
[20:46:29] Jack Sondergaard: we started out talking about a chapter a day, but it's pretty much general philosphy talk now
[20:46:08] Ina Centaur: oh yay, you're here to discuss Atlas, Middy?
[20:45:49] Ina Centaur: hehe
[20:45:30] Middy Mysterio: are people reading the book right now before we start?
[20:45:23] Dawkins Slade: I did
[20:45:21] Dawkins Slade: guess that was everyone's cue to fall asleep ;)
[20:45:18] Jack Sondergaard: did anyone hear me just day "hello"?
[20:45:08] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[20:43:41] Middy Mysterio: long day and i need some sleep
[20:43:29] Dawkins Slade: that must be it
[20:43:25] Dawkins Slade: ah
[20:43:22] Middy Mysterio: i am tired
[20:43:16] Dawkins Slade: you look a little gaunt
[20:43:00] Dawkins Slade: lol, hey
[20:42:59] Ina Centaur: join our discussion? philosophy, life, the universe, and everything.. and atlas shrugged / ayn rand if you're inclined
[20:42:50] Middy Mysterio: wth ru
[20:42:40] Ina Centaur: hi guys
[20:42:34] Mh Price: hey
[20:42:24] Dawkins Slade: hey
[20:42:17] Jack Sondergaard: I tried it a couple of times
[20:42:01] Dawkins Slade: my arms are bothering me... recovering from a nasty bout of tendinitis
[20:41:51] Dawkins Slade: do any of you use voice chat
[20:41:50] Middy Mysterio: my rezzing is so slow i dont see people
[20:41:25] Middy Mysterio: oh
[20:41:24] Ina Centaur: thanks :-)
[20:41:24] Dawkins Slade: where we were sitting
[20:41:20] Dawkins Slade: in here
[20:41:16] Middy Mysterio: is it out here or in there
[20:41:14] Dawkins Slade: wb
[20:40:59] Dawkins Slade: it's kind of a free-ranging discussion about ayn rand's beliefs in general, and philosophy, and ethics
[20:40:57] Ina Centaur: hi!
[20:40:56] Jack Sondergaard: I got the audio book from iTunes
[20:40:36] Mh Price: masterpieces
[20:40:34] Dawkins Slade: I haven't read it either, but I plan to
[20:40:32] Mh Price: that and The Fountainhead
[20:40:26] Dawkins Slade: haha
[20:40:21] Middy Mysterio: i almost checked it out yesterday funny thing
[20:40:18] Mh Price: you should read it
[20:40:08] Middy Mysterio: on a book i didnt read called atlas shrugged
[20:40:03] Karel Villota: Ayn Rand...i haven't read her but i thought i'd pop in
[20:39:59] Jack Sondergaard: one of the main theses of Rand is that you should enjoy what your money can buy, get pleasure out of it, but that it must be earned by your labor and thinking, not by theft
[20:39:47] Dawkins Slade: were you the big bunny who stepped in here earlier
[20:39:41] Mh Price: on what?
[20:39:37] Dawkins Slade: hey
[20:39:32] Karel Villota: yeah so did i
[20:39:30] Dawkins Slade: it is
[20:39:22] Middy Mysterio: ha, i thought it was some discussion
[20:39:07] Mh Price: got me -- i just got here
[20:38:52] Middy Mysterio: what is this place
[20:38:42] Middy Mysterio: hello
[20:38:37] Mh Price: hello middy
[20:38:31] Karel Villota: hello all
[20:38:26] Mh Price: hello karel
[20:37:52] Jack Sondergaard: I couldn't enjoy the profits of ill-gotten gains, I have turned them down a few times
[20:36:57] Jack Sondergaard: I haven't read enough of her to know what she would think of regulations for that purpose
[20:36:56] Dawkins Slade: that's how you get to be a millionaire, by being smart enough not to waste all your money on books like that
[20:36:17] Dawkins Slade: probably none
[20:36:10] Dawkins Slade: I wonder how many millionaires actually got that way after reading any of these self-help books
[20:35:35] Jack Sondergaard: the best selling book, "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" promotes getting rich by just about any legal means, even if it is unfair to others
[20:35:18] Dawkins Slade: would she allow then for government to step in and impose some regulations, specifically to curb unethical behavior
[20:34:23] Dawkins Slade: no wonder we get companies like enron
[20:34:15] Jack Sondergaard: Rand believed that one must never either become a victum or victumize others, so she would disapprove greatly of any business where someone takes unfair advantage of others
[20:33:59] Dawkins Slade: getting rich by any means, that's what we value
[20:33:43] Dawkins Slade: american culture really encourages greed, we seem to admire anyone that makes a quick buck
[20:33:03] Dawkins Slade: wow
[20:32:40] Jack Sondergaard: I met a man once who bragged that he "earned" about 4 million dollars a year by selling homes, then foreclosing the first time a payment was late and reselling, keeping all the equity
[20:32:19] Dawkins Slade: everybody out for themselves
[20:32:06] Dawkins Slade: I'm not terribly familiar with her, but from what I do know it seems she was a big free market, non-interventionist
[20:31:33] Dawkins Slade: I don't know, would ayn rand agree
[20:30:50] Jack Sondergaard: it's very unethical
[20:30:30] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[20:30:28] Dawkins Slade: lol
[20:30:16] Dawkins Slade: I think that's in the same category as taking advantage of old people, or senile people, or other people with questionable competency
[20:30:07] Jack Sondergaard: maybe we should bring back public hangings
[20:29:26] Dawkins Slade: who signed loans they could never hope to pay back
[20:29:15] Dawkins Slade: which most loan sellers concealed from the buyers
[20:28:58] Dawkins Slade: I did read about newfangled loans with "ballooning" interest rates... the rate starts out low then in a year or two jumps up by a lot
[20:28:37] Jack Sondergaard: OK
[20:28:32] Ina Centaur: back in about 5
[20:28:21] Ina Centaur: hehe i have to BRB to admin something at another sim
[20:28:00] Dawkins Slade: yeah, I'm sure there's many factors involved, which I'm nowhere near expert enough to tease apart
[20:27:17] Jack Sondergaard: no problem
[20:27:10] Melch Savon: sorry I was so quiet
[20:27:03] Jack Sondergaard: bye Melch
[20:26:57] Melch Savon: Housing market slide is because bankers assume feds will bail them out.
[20:26:55] Dawkins Slade: take care
[20:26:55] Jack Sondergaard: the buyer, who I worked for at the time, bragged about how he took advantage of this old lady's ignorance
[20:26:44] Melch Savon: Guys, sorry, gotta go
[20:26:39] Dawkins Slade: yeah, and the whole housing slide in the market (from what I've read) is due to people signing bad loans because they didn't understand the fine print
[20:25:58] Jack Sondergaard: I know of a case when an old woman priced her house at half it's value because she didn't understand the tax valuation in that town, which put a value of 1/2 for taxing purposes on all houses
[20:25:50] Dawkins Slade: I think competency has to be a factor. does the person selling this for this amount have the competency to know what they're doing and know what the average buyer is willing to pay for that
[20:24:47] Ina Centaur: one of the arguments about unregulated trade is that cases of Shylock's pound of flesh might occur -- i.e., some guy coudl be desperate enough to wager a pound of his own flesh
[20:24:33] Dawkins Slade: if somebody has dementia and sells their house for a dollar, I think it would be unethical to buy it from them
[20:24:21] Jack Sondergaard: but usually what it is sold for, at least in an auction, is the highest price anyone is willing to pay
[20:24:10] Dawkins Slade: I think that has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis
[20:23:17] Dawkins Slade: usually when we think of a fair market price for something, it's the average "worth" among all the people willing to buy it
[20:23:17] Jack Sondergaard: I think Rand's concept of not being a victum or victumizing others would be a part of her philosophy of justice
[20:23:13] Ina Centaur: if someone sells a million dollar thing for a dollar because of whatever circumstances, would the buyer be considered someone taking advantage of them?
[20:22:04] Dawkins Slade: I wouldn't say so, I think an item can have several "worths", it can be worth X to person A, and it can be worth Y to person B
[20:21:46] Jack Sondergaard: if someone is in a hurry to get rid of something and is willing to sell it for a low price, that's their decision
[20:20:37] Ina Centaur: but then, often you have things that are overpriced... and valuable things underpriced. is paying too little for something considered stealing?
[20:20:35] Dawkins Slade: which changes constantly
[20:20:12] Dawkins Slade: I don't think worth is some absolute, ideal quantity. you know what something is worth by what people are willing to pay for it
[20:19:54] Ina Centaur: yes
[20:18:43] Jack Sondergaard: true, but I can get a ballpark figure by seeing what an item has been selling for in the past
[20:18:03] Ina Centaur: and there are other factors on eBay.. such as luck, the # of people viewing ebay stuff on saturday nights, etc
[20:17:41] Ina Centaur: hmm, it's rare to name a rate nowadays
[20:17:32] Jack Sondergaard: rates could be determined by the market, like on eBay
[20:16:10] Jack Sondergaard: is this within the definition of Rand's view of justice?
[20:15:38] Jack Sondergaard: but when each one receives what they produce, they are the ones who decide what they will get
[20:14:39] Jack Sondergaard: that is the problem of socialism, the group or a central authority decides, but that opens the door to all kinds of corruption
[20:13:47] Jack Sondergaard: who else but me can really know my ability or needs
[20:13:43] Ina Centaur: similarly, if everyone produces according to their ability, and is paid according to ability -- what determines the rate?
[20:13:21] Jack Sondergaard: if it's everyone produces according to their ability and receives according to their needs, then who decides?
[20:11:28] Ina Centaur: i guess it has to do with human nature? the tendency for gluttony?
[20:11:17] Ina Centaur: yes, if everyone starts with the same thing, people would still claim that their start is not fair.
[20:10:52] Ina Centaur: hmm
[20:10:03] Jack Sondergaard: I think culturally influenced ideas are more in the line of everyone should have something like equality of opportunity, which is a difficult thing to define
[20:08:23] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[20:07:26] Jack Sondergaard: yes, we were getting justice and morality confused
[20:05:45] Ina Centaur: back to that justice thing we confused ourselves with last time around.
[20:05:19] Ina Centaur: meh. essay topic #1 for this year's A.S. contest.... A considerable part of the story of Atlas Shrugged deals with issues of justice. What is the account of justice that emerges in the novel? How does it compare to other, culturally-influential accounts of justice?
[20:04:33] Ina Centaur: ok... so ready for some atlas shrugged?
[20:04:01] Ina Centaur: wb
[20:03:59] Ina Centaur: bw
[20:03:54] Melch Savon: back
[20:03:35] Ina Centaur: cool
[19:59:40] Jack Sondergaard: I have that running on my computer now, but haven't used it yet
[19:59:14] Ina Centaur: yeah, and i guess rights would be an issue..
[19:59:14] Jack Sondergaard: there is a free program that lets you share your iTunes library with selected individuals, http://www.simplifymedia.com/
[19:58:23] Jack Sondergaard: it's AAC, I can change it to mp3, but it's keyed to my computer(s)
[19:53:45] Ina Centaur: oh, so it's not an mp3?
[19:52:38] Jack Sondergaard: I probably need you serve it from my computer, it's files from the iTunes store
[19:51:36] Ina Centaur: directly change the media parcel
[19:51:22] Ina Centaur: or...
[19:51:18] Ina Centaur: and then you can either use media content changing script
[19:51:03] Ina Centaur: i can offer to host some clips i guess. (dedicated server ^.~)
[19:50:44] Ina Centaur: typically, you put it on a server.
[19:49:34] Jack Sondergaard: audiobooks
[19:49:31] Ina Centaur: yes, if you put it on a server.. or you can try streaming from your own computer
[19:49:16] Ina Centaur: hmm a sound clip?
[19:48:33] Jack Sondergaard: is there an easy way to stream my iTunes into SL?
[19:46:10] Ina Centaur: (etc)
[19:46:07] Ina Centaur: and Linkin Park... Dean Koontz
[19:45:42] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I saw that when Mitch Kapor was in SL
[19:45:36] Ina Centaur: simulcast. it's done when a #1 NY Times Bestselling author dropped in the sLiterary Events Center for an interview
[19:45:15] Ina Centaur: a SL performance can be recorded live, and then streamed
[19:45:07] Jack Sondergaard: actually, I think I have seen that
[19:45:02] Ina Centaur: yes, that is actually possible already
[19:44:32] Jack Sondergaard: also, cameras to do video conferencing with people in other SL locations
[19:43:30] Ina Centaur: sl within sl within sl within sl ...... o_O
[19:43:24] Ina Centaur: could go on ad infinitum though
[19:43:17] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:43:01] Dawkins Slade: not to mention awesome ;)
[19:42:38] Ina Centaur: that would be... redundant ^.~
[19:41:40] Dawkins Slade: lol
[19:41:05] Jack Sondergaard: I want a laptop in SL that runs SL
[19:40:43] Dawkins Slade: I remember arcologies from sim city 2000 :)
[19:40:09] Ina Centaur: yes
[19:40:07] Jack Sondergaard: in SL, there is Nexus Prime
[19:39:51] Jack Sondergaard: 5th Element and Blade Runner have arcologies in them
[19:39:14] Jack Sondergaard: basically, a city in a building
[19:39:03] Melch Savon: (I do outsourced sales for a company, get people on the team and receive overrides.)
[19:38:55] Jack Sondergaard: yes, there are arcologies in several sf movies
[19:38:21] Ina Centaur: arcology, jack? like star wars?
[19:38:11] Dawkins Slade: can you guys hear me on voice chat
[19:38:08] Ina Centaur: team?
[19:38:04] Ina Centaur: meh , i meant 500 sims on one core
[19:38:02] Melch Savon: woot, new person on my team!
[19:37:47] Melch Savon: phone, going quiet for a bit
[19:37:07] Melch Savon: it can sure do lots of great things
[19:37:05] Jack Sondergaard: I need to read up on that, since I would like to build an arcology, which will take a lot of land
[19:36:57] Ina Centaur: so i heard open sim can run 500 cores at once?
[19:36:49] Ina Centaur: yes, melch... can't wait until i can use my server farm to run sims :-D
[19:36:36] Melch Savon: One day I'll just rent a server and run a world
[19:36:23] Ina Centaur: (average)
[19:36:19] Melch Savon: I can make land at will on my home server
[19:36:19] Ina Centaur: hmm 4096 commercial for L$35k ... 3rd party
[19:36:11] Melch Savon: I'm playing with the open source sim , Open Sim, at home. I think you'll find that as that sort of thing progresses land prices will crash
[19:35:18] Jack Sondergaard: after first land the price goes up, I paid around L13,000 for 1024 sq. m.
[19:35:09] Dawkins Slade: I was reading one of his books when I made the account and the name popped into mind
[19:35:08] Ina Centaur: land is actually cheaper from 3rd parties
[19:34:51] Dawkins Slade: haha, yeah
[19:34:43] Melch Savon: Btw, you name you ravatar after Richard Dawkins?
[19:34:32] Ina Centaur: you can also own land from 3rd parties w/o a premium account
[19:34:29] Melch Savon: That used to be true Dawkins. I assume it still is
[19:33:59] Dawkins Slade: you need a premium account to buy that?
[19:33:48] Dawkins Slade: oh, not bad
[19:33:39] Ina Centaur: Dawkins, firstland is just L$512 or so
[19:33:30] Dawkins Slade: I imagine it must vary a lot
[19:33:29] Ina Centaur: yes.. this sim is like a microcosm for A.S.
[19:33:21] Dawkins Slade: how expensive is it to own your own place in SL
[19:33:06] Ina Centaur: i think we've agreed to be cordial and to let events prescheduled take precedence
[19:32:59] Melch Savon: Let him deal then. Another barren wasteland in SL
[19:32:56] Ina Centaur: oh, the discussions are here since they were scheduled here for the month
[19:32:39] Ina Centaur: oh, i will be moving everything to a new sim. he's not selling this sim, although he'd be left with basically just empty land
[19:32:27] Melch Savon: I have a grand canyon enviro lounge, but the underwater house sounds cooler :)
[19:32:13] Ina Centaur: i made the mistake of advertising this discussion series to a number of non-SL objectivist groups.
[19:32:09] Jack Sondergaard: I have an underwater house, if you want to meet there
[19:31:34] Ina Centaur: imeh. i guess he gets a good deal. all this free publicity and the fact that he bought the island for cheap
[19:31:11] Melch Savon: still?
[19:31:03] Ina Centaur: honestly, though, there's way too much drama going on on this sim. the current new owner apparently wants to kick all the current builds (and me) off and do this own thing.
[19:30:53] Melch Savon: finished last week here, don't have the book at hand
[19:30:32] Ina Centaur: i'm behind on the reading.. or ahead. been flipping around.
[19:30:20] Melch Savon: /me tosses a paper airplane at Ina
[19:29:19] Jack Sondergaard: around then
[19:29:08] Dawkins Slade: didn't tron come out in the '80s
[19:29:05] Melch Savon: So tell me, what are our characters doing in chapter 25 of Atlas Shrugged?
[19:29:03] Dawkins Slade: I remember scenes from '80s movies that had VR suits
[19:28:55] Jack Sondergaard: but it will be back, probably using the wii
[19:28:35] Dawkins Slade: haha
[19:28:31] Jack Sondergaard: short attention span
[19:28:16] Jack Sondergaard: it was new then, like going to the moon at first
[19:28:10] Dawkins Slade: which is sort of ironic. as technology comes closer to making VR a reality, the less we hear about it
[19:27:51] Dawkins Slade: it seems like VR was a bigger pop culture reference back then than it is today
[19:27:46] Jack Sondergaard: yes, it was
[19:27:43] Melch Savon: things rise and fall in popularity
[19:27:21] Dawkins Slade: it'sis it me or did it seem like VR was mentioned a lot more in the '90s, even the '80s
[19:27:20] Jack Sondergaard: I tried on a VR suit once, about 20 years ago, in a gimbal, but the video was very low resolution, so I was rather dissapointed with it
[19:26:12] Melch Savon: they are still ways out there. Getting 100,000s of sensors to act on your body in concert is challengin
[19:26:09] Jack Sondergaard: I've sometimes thought of during a vacation, making part of my apartment look like the inside of a spaceship or submarine, and spending my whole vacation there.
[19:26:00] Ina Centaur: VR suit SL would be interesting
[19:25:48] Dawkins Slade: when are VR suits finally going to arrive, I've heard people talking about VR since I was born
[19:25:44] Ina Centaur: brave new world?
[19:25:42] Melch Savon: I can't help but think their life will be less than it could have been
[19:25:26] Melch Savon: non-producters, non-achievers, unrealized possibilities
[19:25:12] Melch Savon: people allowing themselves to being reduced to unthinking animals
[19:24:55] Melch Savon: I fear VR suits will be like that
[19:24:51] Jack Sondergaard: some people will live in them except for going to the bathroom and taking showers
[19:24:10] Jack Sondergaard: I think it will be like that with VR suits
[19:23:34] Jack Sondergaard: and sometimes astronauts on space walks don't want to come back in the ship
[19:23:00] Melch Savon: I wonder what their general attitude is like
[19:22:39] Jack Sondergaard: it reminded me of Galt's Gulch, they didn't want to face the problems of living in a conflict-ridden world again
[19:22:25] Melch Savon: I can't wait for the next 30 years
[19:22:16] Melch Savon: The older I get the more interesting the world gets
[19:21:43] Melch Savon: Hmmm
[19:20:57] Jack Sondergaard: they were there 6 months, and didn't even know how they would get back to Earth
[19:20:47] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:20:13] Jack Sondergaard: like the ones stranded on the International Space Station after the Columbia disaster, the psychologists said they would become hostile to each other, the opposite happened, the longer they stayed, the better they got along
[19:19:24] Melch Savon: wouldn't there be some sort of health concern there?
[19:18:28] Jack Sondergaard: I just finished listening to a book about the history of the manned space projects, seems some astronauts don't want to come back to Earth
[19:17:02] Jack Sondergaard: my first few weeks I was in SL 20 to 30 hours a week
[19:16:57] Melch Savon: yes some seem obsessive
[19:16:27] Ina Centaur: seriously, there are people who live here 24/7.
[19:16:14] Ina Centaur: or a new world
[19:16:12] Ina Centaur: sl is like a country
[19:15:44] Melch Savon: sl is a society
[19:15:39] Ina Centaur: oh SL isn't just a game
[19:15:37] Melch Savon: what debate? they pulled guns :)
[19:15:33] Dawkins Slade: not bad, this is only my second day playing second life
[19:15:25] Ina Centaur: melch, ready to jump into another A.S. debate. your topic ;-)
[19:15:20] Jack Sondergaard: yes, there's so much in it
[19:15:00] Melch Savon: How about you Dawkins -- how has your day gone?
[19:13:43] Ina Centaur: yes, every time you read it, new insights occur
[19:13:20] Melch Savon: It's addictive isn't it :)
[19:13:12] Ina Centaur: hehe
[19:12:37] Jack Sondergaard: I'm still listening to Atlas Shrugged the 2nd time through
[19:11:45] Melch Savon: What has everyone been up to today?
[19:10:32] Dawkins Slade: I brought my bubble pipe :)
[19:09:56] Dawkins Slade: much better
[19:09:48] Melch Savon: Some friends and I were thinking of names for kids we don't have, and when I came up with that one ... welll ... I had to use it right away
[19:09:31] Ina Centaur: changed the camera
[19:09:26] Ina Centaur: hhe sit down again
[19:09:25] Melch Savon: of course!
[19:09:16] Dawkins Slade: I see a bunch of mushrooms and a guy sitting in a chair when I sit down
[19:08:43] Dawkins Slade: cool
[19:08:30] Dawkins Slade: where did my camera go when I sat down here
[19:08:30] Ina Centaur: oh btw, we are way off the schedule... it's now become general philosophy, life, the universe, and everything discussion now.
[19:08:14] Ina Centaur: mozart?
[19:08:12] Ina Centaur: o_O
[19:08:10] Ina Centaur: amateus?
[19:08:09] Dawkins Slade: woah
[19:07:58] Melch Savon: Hello Dawkins, I don't believe we've met. I am Melch, but sometimes I am called Amadeus Absolut Perfection!
[19:07:33] Dawkins Slade: hey
[19:06:52] Ina Centaur: today is the 25th, part 3 chapter 5
[19:06:48] Melch Savon: Don't mind if my responses lag, making a quick bite to eat
[19:06:45] Ina Centaur: yes, rand needed a new look ;-)
[19:06:20] Melch Savon: Jack!
[19:05:29] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:05:28] Melch Savon: /ao off
[19:05:22] Melch Savon: what holiday have I missed?
[19:05:12] Melch Savon: and why is the picture of Ayn Rand with glasses and a big ole nose ... ??:)
[19:04:31] Melch Savon: so what chapter are you on?
[19:04:21] Ina Centaur: þhehe
[19:04:14] Melch Savon: It adds just that right touch of levity
[17:02:48] ToryLynn Writer: Heya Morrhys
[17:02:32] Desideria Stockton: Want to learn how to be part of SL Literature? Come to the SLiterary meeting tonight inworld at 6:00PM (now). Literature Alive! does not operate this project, but fully supports this resident-driven mission! http://slurl.com/secondlife/Cookie/25/72/25
[17:02:32] mindserfer Hilbert: ina, we meet again.
[17:02:30] Desideria Stockton: I just spammed all my groups for you :-)
[17:02:24] Desideria Stockton: hi Ina!
[17:02:19] Ina Centaur: hi!
[17:01:29] Morrhys Graysmark: There's one person already here.
[17:01:19] Morrhys Graysmark: It will start soon.
[17:01:16] Morrhys Graysmark: Yes, please come in.
[17:01:06] mindserfer Hilbert: i guess the meeting is about to start.
[17:01:01] Morrhys Graysmark: Hello mindserfer.
[16:58:39] Morrhys Graysmark: Are you here for the SLiterary meeting?
[16:58:34] Morrhys Graysmark: Hello mindserfer.
[16:57:31] Desideria Stockton: ao off
[16:57:15] Morrhys Graysmark: I expect we'll start in a few minutes.
[16:56:58] Morrhys Graysmark: Come on in to the long house and make yourself comfortable.
[16:56:50] Morrhys Graysmark: Great! You're the first.
[16:56:15] Morrhys Graysmark: Are you here for the SLiterary meeting?
[16:56:06] Morrhys Graysmark: Hello Desideria.
[04:54:13] Paggles Whitman: Hello Gordon
[04:45:28] Object: Touched.
[22:26:54] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[22:22:52] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[22:09:44] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[22:09:40] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[22:09:21] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[22:05:39] Ina Centaur: ^^
[22:05:07] ToryLynn Writer: and if Sojourna will let me have it, I want the top bunk... with the vaulted ceilings
[22:05:02] Nebbisk Oh: hehe g'night tory .. and ina .. and anyone else i don't see
[22:04:44] ToryLynn Writer: I think I'm gonna go lay down in my musrhoom patch :)
[22:04:40] Nebbisk Oh: ina -- i'll be away all weekend but please note that i'd like the same spot in the new place
[22:04:27] ToryLynn Writer: night ina
[22:04:24] Nebbisk Oh: so i'll say good night to you lovely peeples
[22:04:20] Ina Centaur: nite everyone
[22:04:14] Nebbisk Oh: i've kinda had it... and have long drive tomorrow...
[22:03:32] Ina Centaur: i think o_O
[22:03:30] Ina Centaur: good.
[22:03:27] Ina Centaur: haha ok
[22:03:22] ToryLynn Writer: both of them are fine
[22:03:20] Ina Centaur: meh.. the book >.<
[22:03:20] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[22:03:12] ToryLynn Writer: your body or the book?
[22:03:00] Ina Centaur: tory do you know if this is too thin?
[22:02:57] Ina Centaur: hehe
[22:02:54] ToryLynn Writer: giggles
[22:02:43] ToryLynn Writer: ok.. me needs sleep now
[21:59:47] Ina Centaur: hrm.. how thin? o_O
[21:59:21] youngjin Rotaru: hello
[21:59:16] Ina Centaur: hi young
[21:59:06] ToryLynn Writer: Hello Young
[21:57:39] ToryLynn Writer: goodnight Jack
[21:57:25] Jack Sondergaard: and good night to you too Tory
[21:57:14] Nebbisk Oh: 'nite jack!
[21:56:55] Ina Centaur: will send over a book version soon
[21:56:51] Ina Centaur: ty for the notecards
[21:56:47] Ina Centaur: nite jack
[21:56:43] Jack Sondergaard: good night Ina and Nebbisk
[21:56:31] Jack Sondergaard: well, I need to get some sleep
[21:49:55] Ina Centaur: i'm uploading some covers :-D
[21:43:44] Ina Centaur: appears that there's an australian gutenberg version o_O http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200791.txt
[21:43:05] ToryLynn Writer: brb
[21:42:45] Mordaina Kasei: gnight :)
[21:42:07] Mordaina Kasei: was just taking a look at that, I didn't see how to vote yet but I'll figure it out
[21:41:42] ToryLynn Writer: I was unaware there was a gutenberg edition
[21:41:36] Mordaina Kasei: yes the drag and drop worked for me
[21:41:36] Ina Centaur: np mordaina... btw go vote on http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1225
[21:41:21] Ina Centaur: should we use the gutenberg edition to not get institutionalized by Adelaide?
[21:41:11] Ina Centaur: http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200791.txt
[21:40:34] Mordaina Kasei: ty ina
[21:40:12] ToryLynn Writer: good night Mordaina
[21:40:04] Mordaina Kasei: I'm fading away quickly... it was nice meeting you all. Enjoy the rest of your evening. :)
[21:39:59] Ina Centaur: ah ok..
[21:38:21] ToryLynn Writer: yeah, you have to drag and drop to inventory, and then find the chapters individually
[21:37:35] ToryLynn Writer: if you drag and drop to inventory, it works
[21:37:33] Mordaina Kasei: what's this notecard you're trying to open?
[21:37:14] Nebbisk Oh: bb in 5 mins or so
[21:37:13] Nebbisk Oh: insufficient permissions for me
[21:36:00] ToryLynn Writer: I asked to reopen it
[21:34:48] ToryLynn Writer: no
[21:33:39] Ina Centaur: does clicking on the chapter notecards on the main notecard work 4 y'all?
[21:32:13] Ina Centaur: i am still voting on the jira
[21:31:47] Ina Centaur: Torley Linden - 25/Jul/07 08:25 AM GOOD NEWS! As marked, Mani Linden just fixed this internally and he's also a crafted a test plan for our Quality Assurance to verify. Following successful passing of those tests, this much-awaited fix will be publicly released. It has viewer and server dependencies -- keep in mind, though, that message liberation (read http://blog.secondlife.com/?s=message liberation to learn more) makes our update system more flexible. Thanks all for your patience and thanks to those who provided useful info that helped us resolve this!
[21:30:38] Ina Centaur: jack, still can't view the notecards... pass that on to others. i think it's creator-view only somehow o_O
[21:29:54] Ina Centaur: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1225]
[21:29:46] Nebbisk Oh: go to the URL that ina just wrote, you'll see
[21:29:20] ToryLynn Writer: how do you vote?
[21:28:18] Nebbisk Oh: but you're right, we should vote -- and get all the INKsters to vote
[21:28:18] Mordaina Kasei: they must have their hands full with voice chat bug fixing at the moment
[21:28:05] Nebbisk Oh: operative word is "supposedly"
[21:27:43] ToryLynn Writer: aaah
[21:27:36] Ina Centaur: supposedly when the vote count is high enough, LL will fix it
[21:27:28] Ina Centaur: it is like "democratic bug fixing"
[21:27:23] Ina Centaur: http://jira.secondlife.com
[21:27:19] Ina Centaur: yes. they have been broken for like 3 months now
[21:27:17] ToryLynn Writer: I keeping hearing jeer...
[21:27:10] Ina Centaur: the notecard version of the chapters of RoOO.. just reminded me
[21:27:08] Nebbisk Oh: i don't understand why Linden doesn't know itself that embedded notecards are important
[21:26:59] ToryLynn Writer: jira?
[21:26:46] Ina Centaur: for notecards
[21:26:45] Ina Centaur: k.. we all have to vote on the jira
[21:26:35] Nebbisk Oh: been letting knotty do all the jira'ing
[21:26:22] Nebbisk Oh: nope sorry
[21:26:13] Ina Centaur: btw, nebbisk do you know the jira for the notecard?
[21:26:06] Ina Centaur: (insufficient permission to view notecard, jack..)
[21:25:40] ToryLynn Writer: aaaaaaaah
[21:25:38] Ina Centaur: http://pinkmonkey.com
[21:25:33] Ina Centaur: *was
[21:25:29] ToryLynn Writer: /me yawns and stretches
[21:25:28] Ina Centaur: pinkmonkey is basically sparknotes' main competitor until barnes and noble assimilated the latter
[21:25:10] ToryLynn Writer: sounds like notes from a feminst viewpoint :)
[21:25:01] ToryLynn Writer: pinkmonkey?
[21:24:51] Ina Centaur: same with sparknotes. pinkmonkey notes as well.
[21:24:37] ToryLynn Writer: I looked through the sparknotes :)
[21:24:34] Ina Centaur: eh. cliffsnotes are kinda like staring at a map of the USA instead of doing the actual roadtrip across the country
[21:24:31] ToryLynn Writer: yeah yeah...
[21:23:36] Nebbisk Oh: /me leans back and heaves a URL at Tory: http://andrewbernstein.net/books/cliffnotes_atlas.htm
[21:22:56] ToryLynn Writer: if it had been in July, I would be great!
[21:22:47] ToryLynn Writer: I'll keep going form where I am.. Francisco just intrduced himself to Rearden at the party, but it's slow going, especialoy with school
[21:22:32] Ina Centaur: more readable than war and peace, at least ;-)
[21:22:16] Ina Centaur: meh. -.-
[21:21:42] ToryLynn Writer: I couldn't get through it
[21:21:37] ToryLynn Writer: /me points at the tomes on the floor
[21:21:31] ToryLynn Writer: unlike that monstrosity
[21:21:19] Ina Centaur: hehe^^
[21:20:45] ToryLynn Writer: well.. RoOO is very small
[21:20:36] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[21:20:26] Ina Centaur: but then lighter books have greater potential for papercuts >.<
[21:20:18] Ina Centaur: depends on heaviness of book though
[21:20:06] Ina Centaur: might hurt a bit ;-)
[21:19:57] ToryLynn Writer: I'm a bit... off :)
[21:19:42] ToryLynn Writer: why does that thought scare me.. book ball :)
[21:19:30] ToryLynn Writer: /me ggiggles
[21:19:24] ToryLynn Writer: wju dpes tja tjtpigjt scare me?
[21:19:10] Ina Centaur: lol... this could be like bookball
[21:18:52] Ina Centaur: (*ahem... throwing away copies at the heads of people who haven't read !!)
[21:18:51] ToryLynn Writer: aaah cool
[21:18:36] ToryLynn Writer: I definitely think that doing weekly instead of daily may be good :)
[21:18:33] Ina Centaur: so, we are basically just giving away copies while keeping the cc statement. i think we're good
[21:18:19] Ina Centaur: You are free: to copy, distribute, display, and perform the work, and to make derivative works under the following conditions: you must attribute the work in the manner specified by the licensor; you may not use this work for commercial purposes; if you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under a license identical to this one.
[21:18:03] Jack Sondergaard: I'm putting it on notecards now
[21:17:57] Ina Centaur: depends on which cc license..
[21:17:51] ToryLynn Writer: I know so little about copyright
[21:17:45] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[21:17:43] ToryLynn Writer: is that good?
[21:16:16] Jack Sondergaard: Itls liscensed under Creative Commons
[21:14:59] Ina Centaur: hmm are the etexts considered bookwarez?
[21:12:54] ToryLynn Writer: nope.. it's not PD yet.. but there are quite a few etexts
[21:12:33] Jack Sondergaard: I found it online
[21:12:15] Jack Sondergaard: http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/w/woolf/virginia/w91r/
[21:11:58] Ina Centaur: yup ^.~
[21:11:36] Mordaina Kasei: cool
[21:10:21] ToryLynn Writer: we can package them neatly in a book like the Atlas Shrugged books on the floor :)
[21:10:06] Ina Centaur: hehe just reserved a copy.
[21:10:04] ToryLynn Writer: hehe.. true :)
[21:09:56] Ina Centaur: oh that'd be excellent. now we can literally throw copies of the book at people who drop by who haven't read^.~
[21:09:53] ToryLynn Writer: I'll have to check Gutenberg on the PD issue though
[21:09:15] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[21:08:12] ToryLynn Writer: and since it is PD (I think) I can put the chapters on notecards and distribute
[21:07:47] ToryLynn Writer: I meant Woolf.. my brain is stuck on Austen right now :)
[21:07:39] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[21:07:30] Ina Centaur: /me goes to reserve a copy of RoOO from lib
[21:07:20] Nebbisk Oh: heh "randy" -- all sorts of interesting interpretations there
[21:07:14] Ina Centaur: so it will be wolfe/austen month
[21:06:59] Ina Centaur: good idea, tory
[21:06:38] Sammie Pippen: lol, nice mask Neb
[21:06:20] Ina Centaur: the nosy thing is fitting for randy^^
[21:06:14] ToryLynn Writer: Heya Sammie
[21:06:13] Sammie Pippen: hey nice place
[21:06:10] ToryLynn Writer: and use it
[21:06:06] Mordaina Kasei: hi Sammie
[21:06:03] ToryLynn Writer: then end it with a symposium on how we can take Austen's message of making sure that the female voice gets heard in writing
[21:06:00] Sammie Pippen: hi
[21:05:51] Nebbisk Oh: hiya sammie!
[21:04:56] Ina Centaur: we could do a chapter or two a week i guess
[21:04:55] ToryLynn Writer: this might be motivation :)
[21:04:51] Ina Centaur: ok sure
[21:04:47] Ina Centaur: what book/author would you choose?
[21:04:41] ToryLynn Writer: Can we read "A Room of One's Own"? I've been trying to get through that for ages and it's only 6 chapters and about 100 pages
[21:04:17] ToryLynn Writer: um.. possibly
[21:04:06] Ina Centaur: tory, can you host weekly discussions for the next WoWA month?
[21:03:02] Ina Centaur: thanks. i hope the first addendum answers y'all's questions
[21:02:22] ToryLynn Writer: LIke I said.. i want to be where the writers are
[21:02:11] ToryLynn Writer: me too.
[21:02:03] Nebbisk Oh: good notice, ina -- count me in
[21:02:02] Jack Sondergaard: any discussion about Atlas Shrugged yet tonight
[21:02:00] Ina Centaur: lol we should have this discussion on a plane just for jack ;-P
[21:01:44] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[21:01:36] Ina Centaur: hi jack
[21:00:33] Mordaina Kasei: hey jack
[20:59:43] Nebbisk Oh: hiya jack!
[20:59:35] Jack Sondergaard: sorry, I was reading notecards, hello Ina, Harmon, Mordaina and Nebbisk
[20:58:23] Mordaina Kasei: lol :)
[20:57:09] Ina Centaur: lol y'all's >.<
[20:57:04] Ina Centaur: am now writing a message that will hopefully calm y'all's nerves
[20:56:51] Ina Centaur: o_O]]
[20:56:14] Harman Mayo: (understand - gave up Catholicism for Lent one year)
[20:55:35] Nebbisk Oh: (used to be orthodox but couldn't give up the lobster)
[20:55:26] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs so hard her sides start hurting
[20:55:15] Nebbisk Oh: i'm reformed, harman
[20:54:55] Harman Mayo: Neb - a jokester? will wonders never cease?
[20:53:52] Ina Centaur: >.<
[20:53:31] Mordaina Kasei: lol
[20:53:15] ToryLynn Writer: I know my eyes hurt from rolling them so much :)
[20:53:08] ToryLynn Writer: he must feel that sting quite often...
[20:52:59] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[20:52:49] Ina Centaur: well.. i can smack nebb pretty good if he gets tooooo punny >.<
[20:52:38] Nebbisk Oh: cool!
[20:52:34] Ina Centaur: wb jack
[20:52:29] ToryLynn Writer: like she can stop you from doing that Neb
[20:52:29] Ina Centaur: sure^.~
[20:52:28] Harman Mayo: wb, Jack
[20:52:07] Nebbisk Oh: can we play practical jokes, ina?
[20:52:00] Mordaina Kasei: :)
[20:51:24] Ina Centaur: btw, you can click on the walls to open/shut, drape, the windows
[20:51:21] Jack Sondergaard: hi everyone
[20:51:11] Mordaina Kasei: hi Jack
[20:50:46] Mordaina Kasei: lol
[20:50:35] Ina Centaur: ;-P
[20:50:28] Ina Centaur: sure
[20:50:14] Ina Centaur: (hehe. i had the draconian schedule of a chapter a day of Atlas SHrugged... to finish the 1000 pages of tiny tiny print by the end of the month)
[20:50:11] ToryLynn Writer: now it's a reason to just get together and hang?
[20:50:11] ToryLynn Writer: :)
[20:49:56] Ina Centaur: np, it is generally just open discussion here... since everyone's off the reading schedule by now ;-)
[20:49:07] Mordaina Kasei: but don't mind me I'm just here to observe and enjoy the atmosphere :)
[20:48:27] Mordaina Kasei: I also haven't but I read mostly non fiction, particularly when I feel it will improve my life somehow
[20:48:18] Ina Centaur: wb. tory. how goes the talk?
[20:48:07] Harman Mayo: awb, Tory
[20:47:53] ToryLynn Writer: ok.. talked to everybody on the island :-D
[20:47:18] Ina Centaur: Atlas SHrugged is one of those books that if you're born in the past 80 years, you've probably read it... i'd assume that all candidates have
[20:46:19] Mordaina Kasei: indeed I never understood how women could be so pro republican lol
[20:45:38] Ina Centaur: she used to an Objectivist... and Republican, iirc... but has changed sides probably due to gender
[20:45:11] Ina Centaur: lol... Hillary has also read the book, iirc...
[20:44:53] Luci Roux: you
[20:44:31] Nebbisk Oh: lol
[20:44:25] Luci Roux: because he is the only person running for president who has probably read the book
[20:43:44] Mordaina Kasei: Oh wow, I've missed a lot then lol
[20:43:37] Ina Centaur: lol why ron?
[20:43:35] Harman Mayo: who is ron paul?
[20:43:23] Ina Centaur: she's probably the most interesting woman author i've read. her novel Atlas Shrugged is on the bestsellers list -- second only to the bible
[20:43:11] Luci Roux: who here is voting for ron paul
[20:42:15] Mordaina Kasei: I haven't
[20:41:58] Ina Centaur: well, mordaina... have you heard anything about Rand or her books?
[20:41:36] Harman Mayo: only time i use voice is when i read poetry
[20:41:11] Nebbisk Oh: sorry i was afk... hi luci and yes, i use talk in meetings a lot
[20:41:10] Ina Centaur: yes, SL ... being a text-chat world is a havan for some of us
[20:41:09] Harman Mayo: and i hate having to adjust volume for each individual speaker
[20:40:49] Harman Mayo: I'm deaf in one ear - so i miss a lot that's said
[20:40:32] Luci Roux: just curious
[20:40:19] Harman Mayo: not much
[20:40:15] Mordaina Kasei: I haven't yet
[20:39:57] Luci Roux: does anyone here use the talk feature?
[20:39:16] Luci Roux: did a search
[20:39:09] Luci Roux: looking for something interesting
[20:39:08] Mordaina Kasei: I'm not familiar with either, but I'm here to learn more ;)
[20:38:45] Ina Centaur: welcome, Luci. how'd you find us? ;-)
[20:38:36] Mordaina Kasei: then welcome Luci :)
[20:38:20] Harman Mayo: need my rand fix
[20:38:15] Harman Mayo: please - been away for 2 days
[20:38:06] Luci Roux: this is my first night in second life
[20:37:59] Ina Centaur: ayn rand or atlas shrugged anyone?
[20:37:52] Ina Centaur: hi luci
[20:37:39] Luci Roux: hi
[20:37:30] Mordaina Kasei: hi luci
[20:37:13] Harman Mayo: hi Luci
[20:37:05] Ina Centaur: tc, Yoe. i'll post updates to the group
[20:36:59] Yoe May: Thanks everyone!
[20:36:58] Harman Mayo: Thank you, Ma'am - I needed that
[20:36:49] Mordaina Kasei: take care Yoe
[20:36:35] Yoe May: thanks for the info and calendar... I really need to run now:)
[20:36:28] Ina Centaur: /me smacks Harman
[20:36:21] Yoe May: Oh, I don't think I'd be good for hosting literary events... as I said, it's not my real occupation, but I might find someone else :)
[20:36:17] Harman Mayo: Rand - seems like she wrote a book or something
[20:36:11] Ina Centaur: /me is up for discussing Rand. lol
[20:35:50] ToryLynn Writer: maybe I'll drag them back too :)
[20:35:46] ToryLynn Writer: ok.. going to find others :)
[20:35:46] Ina Centaur: oh yes ayn rand! :-D
[20:35:23] Barnabas Massey: Have y'all started talking about Ayn Rand yet?
[20:35:19] Ina Centaur: yes, we are also hoping to have more events earlier in the day -- would you be interested in hosting some? as long as there's nothing scheduled for the timeslot on http://calendar.sliterary.com ... you're free to choose any location on the sim
[20:34:59] Yoe May: but hey, we're not such a big group so don't worry :)
[20:34:35] Yoe May: theyre western-europe-friendly... past midnight in Finland :)
[20:34:10] Ina Centaur: ah, well, our two weekly events are mostly at 2 or 3 PM --- euro-ish friendly ;-)
[20:34:10] Yoe May: But I run podcasts and blogs on SL in Finnish language
[20:33:57] Yoe May: My main occupation is science communication
[20:33:44] Ina Centaur: np. what do you plan to do in SL?
[20:33:44] Yoe May: I'll be looking towards any events that are euro-time-friendly :)
[20:33:06] Yoe May: Thanks for the invite :)
[20:32:57] Harman Mayo: Ina Minute - those take more than 60 seconds
[20:32:55] Ina Centaur: please join the sLiterary group for updates
[20:32:50] Mordaina Kasei: ty ina
[20:32:47] Ina Centaur: tc, nan
[20:32:43] Barnabas Massey: Did the Cubs win today? That's my main concern.
[20:32:38] Nan Bamaisin: I will visit later. nice to meet you all.
[20:32:21] Nan Bamaisin: I'm sorry, ahead?
[20:32:08] Yoe May: No prob, I need to go as well ina minute,,, :)
[20:31:58] Barnabas Massey: go ahead, Nan
[20:31:53] Nan Bamaisin: Sorry, Yoe!
[20:31:44] Yoe May: You meet here also outside the poetry reading evenings?
[20:31:26] Nan Bamaisin: I have to run, so I will tell you look up the Voice-Aholics. That's a very stimulating group. They are in Ear.
[20:31:21] Ina Centaur: hehe, you might have found the perfect place, Yoe. however we will be moving to a new sim -- but, pretty much everything you see here will be moved as is.
[20:30:57] Nan Bamaisin: Hello Yoe.
[20:30:56] Barnabas Massey: hi, kids
[20:30:46] Yoe May: :)
[20:30:44] Nebbisk Oh: and Barnabus
[20:30:36] Nebbisk Oh: Hello Yoe, pleased to meet you
[20:30:32] Yoe May: that are intellectually satisfying:)
[20:30:25] Nan Bamaisin: I am a scriptwriter and novelist. Someone just told me about this place. I have been looking for something like this since March.
[20:30:20] Yoe May: Nice to meet you :) I'm trying to let people in Finland know about things they can do in SL
[20:29:57] ToryLynn Writer: Yoe, this is Ina. She sort of has a handle on all things Sliterary :)
[20:29:48] Ina Centaur: awesome :-D
[20:29:40] ToryLynn Writer: She has an interst in Sliterary :)
[20:29:36] Nan Bamaisin: Any of you guys use voice?
[20:29:33] Yoe May: Hello :)
[20:29:32] ToryLynn Writer: Ina, this is Yoe. She is a Finnish Podcaster looking into SL events
[20:29:24] Ina Centaur: lol tc dawkins
[20:29:17] Ina Centaur: /me puts on her imaginary bubble pipe
[20:29:12] Dawkins Slade: see you all later :)
[20:29:10] Dawkins Slade: I'll work on it
[20:29:04] Dawkins Slade: haha
[20:28:59] Dawkins Slade: oh, wow
[20:28:59] Ina Centaur: sure, put on your bubble pipe
[20:28:48] Ina Centaur: still going on daily until end of the month as long as SL doesn't die o_O
[20:28:37] Dawkins Slade: yeah
[20:28:34] Ina Centaur: atlas shrugged / objectivism?
[20:28:24] Dawkins Slade: do we have a time for the discussion
[20:28:23] Ina Centaur: np dawkins. nite
[20:28:13] Mordaina Kasei: gnight Dawkins
[20:28:07] Nebbisk Oh: okay dawkins, cya!
[20:27:50] Dawkins Slade: thanks for the tour and welcome guys, I'm gonna head out
[20:27:14] Nebbisk Oh: i was told that the core is randomly chosen on reset -- which seems odd to me
[20:26:52] Ina Centaur: and the second URL explains for how cores relate to sims
[20:26:51] Nebbisk Oh: was told that only estate manager could check and mine's useless :(
[20:26:45] Ina Centaur: it shows you which sims are on the same server
[20:26:37] Nebbisk Oh: oh didn't see the url -- thanks i'll do that
[20:26:23] Ina Centaur: http://forums.secondlife.com/showpost.php?p=690056
[20:26:21] Nebbisk Oh: dunno what you mean
[20:26:13] Ina Centaur: *max case
[20:26:13] Ina Centaur: yesa
[20:26:10] Ina Centaur: mas case
[20:26:07] Nebbisk Oh: maxcase?
[20:25:58] Ina Centaur: check your sim, c/o maxcase
[20:25:50] Ina Centaur: http://neighbours.maxcase.info/index.php
[20:25:50] Nebbisk Oh: the only skybox above is mine and a static one of my partner's
[20:25:44] Ina Centaur: nebbisk, it depends on what class the server is
[20:25:42] Nan Bamaisin: I am sorry, are you guys discussing the writer's homes?
[20:25:31] Ina Centaur: so you are sharing resources with the 9 other sims on top of the same sim
[20:25:20] Nebbisk Oh: well it's 1 core/4 sims instead of 2 -- but that doesn't account for a 98% slowdown!
[20:25:14] Ina Centaur: often times, you have "low prim" sims sold with 10 sims in 1 ... i.e., there are 9 other "sky box" sims above you if you get the island part
[20:24:50] Ina Centaur: well, low prim sims are often on older servers... or else many other people are sharing the same core
[20:24:24] Nebbisk Oh: no it's too few prims/sim... you get more space for the money but fewer prims
[20:24:23] Ina Centaur: ^.^
[20:24:18] Ina Centaur:
[20:24:07] Ina Centaur: or as in too many prims / sim
[20:24:00] Ina Centaur: hmm high-area sims -- as in many occupancy?
[20:23:53] Nebbisk Oh: okay
[20:23:43] Nebbisk Oh: hi nan
[20:23:39] Ina Centaur: /me smacks Dawkins
[20:23:38] Nan Bamaisin: Is this the writer's group?
[20:23:33] Nan Bamaisin: Hi everyone!
[20:23:32] Nebbisk Oh: do* not to
[20:23:27] Nebbisk Oh: the real question is, why to high-area sims affect script performance?
[20:23:19] Mordaina Kasei: hi Nan
[20:22:40] Nebbisk Oh: it's just a cycle counter with a timer
[20:22:36] Dawkins Slade: so I can look pseudosophisticated while I debate objectivism
[20:22:21] Nan Bamaisin: Hi!
[20:22:17] Nebbisk Oh: think of the figures as relative -- it's about 1/50 the speed of a "normal" sim
[20:22:14] Dawkins Slade: sweet, had an idea for a pipe that emits bubbles :)
[20:21:58] Ina Centaur: there is a bubble machine on Main Street ^^
[20:21:56] Harman Mayo: yep
[20:21:56] Nebbisk Oh: just the amount of work it did in 10 secs on a few normal sims -- they were all in the same range
[20:21:52] Ina Centaur: yes, dawkins
[20:21:43] Dawkins Slade: is it possible to make bubbles as a particle effect
[20:21:26] Ina Centaur: what is your benchmark based on?
[20:21:24] Nebbisk Oh: i could only duplilcate the results on another high-area sim where i got 4%
[20:20:44] Nebbisk Oh: 2% means it did only 1/50 of the work in 10 secs
[20:20:23] Nebbisk Oh: most places are at that figure - 3%
[20:20:07] ToryLynn Writer: I"m gonna go look at who else is on the island.. brb ;)
[20:20:07] Nebbisk Oh: i made an arbitrary benchmark which i called 100%...
[20:19:53] Nebbisk Oh: not exactly...
[20:19:51] Ina Centaur: 2% is super-performance?
[20:19:48] ToryLynn Writer: thanks Neb :)
[20:19:46] Dawkins Slade: ah, hehe
[20:19:46] Ina Centaur: hmm so 101% is normal
[20:19:44] Nebbisk Oh: nice outfit tory
[20:19:37] Ina Centaur: hehe
[20:19:32] Ina Centaur: shut the windows
[20:19:31] ToryLynn Writer: mine too dawkins
[20:19:24] Dawkins Slade: the walls in this house make my hair disappear
[20:18:57] Nebbisk Oh: i realized it when the backgammon table i brought there wouldn't run
[20:18:30] Nebbisk Oh: on my island i get 2%
[20:18:23] Nebbisk Oh: okay so that's normal performance
[20:18:01] Nebbisk Oh: take 10 secs
[20:17:57] Nebbisk Oh: okay now watch
[20:17:30] Ina Centaur: *er
[20:17:28] Ina Centaur: where are they slow?
[20:17:17] Nebbisk Oh: i'll show you what i mean
[20:17:13] Nebbisk Oh: why do my scripts run like 50x slower then elsewhere -- i'm on a high-area sim
[20:16:30] Ina Centaur: what's your mystery?
[20:16:19] Nebbisk Oh: solve my mystery ina and i might show it to you -- if i can find it, hehe
[20:16:12] ToryLynn Writer: /me blushes to her toes
[20:16:03] Ina Centaur: nebb's sculpted appendage? o_O
[20:15:43] ToryLynn Writer: :)
[20:15:42] ToryLynn Writer: is it something I write about, but don't use in SL?
[20:15:36] ToryLynn Writer: /me giggles
[20:15:24] Nebbisk Oh: (you don't wanna know tory... you're pure as the driven... well 99 44/100% pure anyway)
[20:15:20] Ina Centaur: it's an old one by the famous Aaron Mariani of Real Designs, whom i did a few prim-sculpted torsos for
[20:15:09] Mordaina Kasei: oh lol
[20:15:01] Ina Centaur: hehe, yes... i have a toy dick too ... although it's not sculpted.
[20:14:56] Nebbisk Oh: does that make sense?
[20:14:49] Nebbisk Oh: so my island -- high-area sim... and i'm finding that scripts run like 50x slower than elsewhere
[20:14:49] Dawkins Slade: will do
[20:14:40] ToryLynn Writer: bought one of what? or do I even want to know?
[20:14:26] Ina Centaur: dawkins, objectivism... http://objectivism.org
[20:14:24] Nebbisk Oh: so go get your own, lol
[20:14:19] Nebbisk Oh: honestly i bought one but haven't taken it out in ages... not even sure where it is
[20:14:12] Mordaina Kasei: yeah :)
[20:14:00] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[20:13:50] Ina Centaur: oh.. show me btw.. i've yet to see any good sculpted body parts
[20:13:48] Nebbisk Oh: lol not that one
[20:13:44] Nebbisk Oh: my island is on a "high area" sim...
[20:13:43] Ina Centaur: meh the one about your sculpted appendage?
[20:13:29] Nebbisk Oh: ina maybe you can solve a mystery for me...
[20:13:12] Nebbisk Oh: wait wait...
[20:13:12] Ina Centaur: yes, i could check script load using the region/estate tool
[20:13:03] Ina Centaur: so anyway... objectivism..
[20:12:57] ToryLynn Writer: you could before?
[20:12:44] Ina Centaur: currently, i have no way of preventing sim crashes here anymore
[20:12:14] Ina Centaur: well, there are ways to minimize that.
[20:12:03] ToryLynn Writer: any sim crashes though
[20:11:56] Mordaina Kasei: ah
[20:11:49] Mordaina Kasei: yeah figured that
[20:11:46] Ina Centaur: another reason why i would rather not stay here.
[20:11:39] Mordaina Kasei: hey again
[20:11:38] ToryLynn Writer: yup
[20:11:35] Ina Centaur: i think the sim crashed.
[20:11:35] ToryLynn Writer: hi
[20:11:31] Ina Centaur: hi again
[20:05:01] Ina Centaur: dawkins, objectivism is basically a philosophy
[20:04:45] Ina Centaur: (lol.. if not... i might have to go onto contemporary authors; not famliar with any non-contemporary women authors.... maybe some gals from RWA. lol nora roberts, perchance.)
[20:03:23] Ina Centaur: anyway, though, i hope to continue WoWA, but definitely not at at daily pace for next month. tory, can you host weekly discussions on a WoWA book for next month?
[20:03:03] Dawkins Slade: what's the difference between objectivism and regular ol' objectivity
[20:02:16] Nebbisk Oh: /me looks at his super-duper xcite 3d sculptie... sure looks like an object to him...
[20:01:46] Ina Centaur: ahem. which means, if we go with Nebbisk... seeing men as objects as well -.-
[20:01:30] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:01:29] Ina Centaur: objectivism is basically about seeing objects as objects.
[20:01:22] Dawkins Slade: haha
[20:01:20] Nebbisk Oh: heh
[20:01:16] Ina Centaur: grrrrRRRRRRRRRR
[20:01:12] Ina Centaur: /me smacks nebbisk
[20:01:10] Ina Centaur: hey!
[20:01:08] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:01:05] Nebbisk Oh: /me always thought it meant we look at women as objects... go figure
[20:00:33] Dawkins Slade: hehe, I was always rubbed a little the wrong way by the term Objectivist... does that imply that the rest of us aren't objective
[20:00:30] Ina Centaur: oh yay. sliterary has 226 people now :-D
[20:00:06] Ina Centaur: nope, but if you join the sLiterary group, i will send the new LM there
[19:59:36] Ina Centaur: oh, yes... and i know that choosing Atlas Shrugged and labeling it as part of WoWA kinda disturbs both the Objectivists and the Fem's .... but then, that's one of the few books by women authors i've read like more than a couple of times and have TA'ed a course for ;-)
[19:59:08] Dawkins Slade: will my landmark still work then
[19:59:02] Dawkins Slade: are you guys planning to move sliterary
[19:58:34] Ina Centaur: somewhat. for the past month or so we have been holding atlas shrugged discussions... it's actually originally supposed to be part of a WoWA (Works of Women Authors) series... but has since deviated to philosophy, etc.
[19:57:52] ToryLynn Writer: Sliterary is fairly new, so we're trying to build a bigger community
[19:57:25] Dawkins Slade: are discussions held here often
[19:55:24] Ina Centaur: anything from building to other things
[19:55:13] Ina Centaur: between 8 am and 6 pm ... there are usually dozens of different classes offerred
[19:55:07] ToryLynn Writer: if you keep the stables the same, I want the top floor to stretch the park out in :)
[19:55:07] Nebbisk Oh: lots of people around (and a forum) to answer newbie questions
[19:55:03] Ina Centaur: search > events > education
[19:55:02] Dawkins Slade: I knew there had to be organizations for helping newbies but I couldn't find any
[19:54:59] Ina Centaur: dawkins, Academy of Second Life is another place to learn
[19:54:50] Nebbisk Oh: I'll give you a landmark to NCI Beach -- one of their sites...
[19:54:48] Dawkins Slade: ok
[19:54:35] Nebbisk Oh: get familiar with a group called "NCI" -- New Citizens, Inc. --
[19:54:23] Ina Centaur: yes, everything will pretty much be the same, except certain buildings will be bigger and better, and certain buildings that were planned to built will actually be built!
[19:54:22] Nebbisk Oh: dawkins let me suggest something...
[19:53:47] Ina Centaur: sandboxes are regions where you can build, but usually ahve some sort of auto-return time set
[19:53:41] ToryLynn Writer: Ina, when we move, are you keeping the structures the same?
[19:53:33] Dawkins Slade: is that where you go to build things
[19:53:23] Dawkins Slade: I also heard something about sandboxes
[19:53:14] Dawkins Slade: ah, ok
[19:52:55] Ina Centaur: you download the beta client, and that's that.
[19:52:44] Ina Centaur: http://secondlife.com/community/preview.php
[19:51:47] Mordaina Kasei: on the phone so semi afk a few
[19:50:58] Dawkins Slade: how do I log into that
[19:50:40] Ina Centaur: the beta grid gives everyone L$5k to start out with.. and is a good testbed for uploading your first textures :-)
[19:50:39] Dawkins Slade: beta grid?
[19:50:24] Ina Centaur: anyway... one way to test "for free" is to log onto the beta grid
[19:50:22] Mordaina Kasei: if you want to know you could take a snapshot and measure in an editing program
[19:50:17] Nebbisk Oh: dawkins i just gave you 100L to play with, no whining ;)
[19:50:17] Ina Centaur: dawkin, but you have L$20 now ;-)
[19:50:08] Ina Centaur: well, SL only allows you to upload dimensions of 2^x ... so you would have to resize it to that ot upload anyway
[19:50:07] Dawkins Slade: hehe
[19:50:03] Dawkins Slade: I don't want to spend 10L and have to do it all over because I messed something up
[19:49:39] Dawkins Slade: space
[19:49:37] Dawkins Slade: does anyone know the exact size of the profile pic
[19:49:18] Mordaina Kasei: yeah I had trouble with getting it the right shape, had to play around with it a bit
[19:49:04] Nebbisk Oh: yes i was just going to say to dawkins that you want your pic to be the same shape as its destination
[19:48:58] Dawkins Slade: haha, will do
[19:48:42] Nebbisk Oh: (dawkins -- ina is the definitive expert re building, listen to her)
[19:48:38] Ina Centaur: hmm the profile pic is not square... it's rectangular
[19:48:27] Nebbisk Oh: ina, if it's not square, wouldn't it be distorted in the profile?
[19:48:18] Ina Centaur: basically, any power of 2... 2^n
[19:48:09] Ina Centaur: 128x64 would allow for quick load
[19:47:59] Mordaina Kasei: you can upload your screen resolution, never uploaded anything higher than that
[19:47:59] Ina Centaur: it can be any size... smaller would be better since profile photo space is small
[19:47:51] Nebbisk Oh: no dawkins but that's the optimal size
[19:47:22] Ina Centaur: it's about 3 cents o_O
[19:47:12] Dawkins Slade: does it have to be 512 x 512
[19:47:11] Nebbisk Oh: heh 10L can mean something to a newbie
[19:46:57] Mordaina Kasei: and it's 10L per upload
[19:46:50] Dawkins Slade: wow, simple
[19:46:37] Ina Centaur: and then drag an drop onto the picture space
[19:46:36] Dawkins Slade: sorry, newbie here
[19:46:31] Ina Centaur: upload.. then find in inventory. click edit > profile ...
[19:46:13] Dawkins Slade: how do I upload a profile pic
[19:46:05] Mordaina Kasei: I know I'm pronouncing it wrong
[19:45:51] Nebbisk Oh: i always pronounced it Kuh-thool-hoo but he didn't materialize so i might be wrong
[19:45:51] Mordaina Kasei: lol
[19:45:24] Mordaina Kasei: yes
[19:45:22] Ina Centaur: btw, how do you pronounce cthulhu anyway? always tried applying some offbeat californian imitation of a quasihawaiian accent
[19:45:21] Nebbisk Oh: Lovecraft?...
[19:45:04] Mordaina Kasei: I've never actually read any of it just about it
[19:44:49] Mordaina Kasei: oh it is then lol
[19:44:47] Ina Centaur: hahahaha :-D
[19:44:40] Dawkins Slade: I like how this chair reorients the camera angle
[19:44:40] Nebbisk Oh: "Said Cthulhu, Nevermore"
[19:44:37] Mordaina Kasei: if it's the lovecraft I'm thinking of
[19:44:26] Mordaina Kasei: it's funny seeing lovecraft in the same sentence as poe lol
[19:44:14] Nebbisk Oh: or dr. seuss
[19:44:05] Nebbisk Oh: probably not sinclair lewis
[19:43:48] Ina Centaur: i think it was lovecraft or poe... or neither.. just some writer
[19:43:38] Ina Centaur: lol, so, basically, it looks like the ghost story log house and it also listens as in the ghost story.
[19:43:24] Mordaina Kasei: cozy
[19:43:17] Nebbisk Oh: thought*
[19:43:15] Ina Centaur: it's a story i read a long time ago... wanted to keep every single building literary, so just went with that idea
[19:43:14] Mordaina Kasei: it is very nice
[19:43:12] Nebbisk Oh: oh... as a BUILD it's very cool -- though you were asking something else
[19:42:45] Dawkins Slade: I love this setup, it's perfect for discussions
[19:42:42] Mordaina Kasei: it's a nice idea but it seems like a lot of the chatter might not be too interesting to others unless it's an official event of some sort
[19:42:41] Ina Centaur: well, the whole log cabin was built based on this weird ghost story i read about this house with a memory...
[19:42:16] Nebbisk Oh: and seems a bit of an invasion of privacy... but other than that... heck there's no privacy here anyway ;)
[19:42:08] Dawkins Slade: a house that listens? kinda spooky
[19:41:54] Nebbisk Oh: dunno... sure gives a lot of superfluous messages...
[19:41:41] Mordaina Kasei: where's the mute option now?
[19:41:38] Ina Centaur: oh btw what do you think of this whole house that listens thing?
[19:41:34] Mordaina Kasei: yes I'm getting a lot of that msg
[19:41:30] Ina Centaur: oh. mute longhouse ...
[19:41:16] Mordaina Kasei: I've found a few places but they've all been empty when I turned up
[19:41:14] Nebbisk Oh: nowhere effectively in SL, mord
[19:41:00] Dawkins Slade: is anyone else getting flooded
[19:40:57] Mordaina Kasei: where abouts can you play FPS?
[19:40:45] Nebbisk Oh: sounds like we just sit tight for the moment and wait fo you to be ready for us -- yes?
[19:40:35] Mordaina Kasei: lol
[19:40:31] Nebbisk Oh: okay so seriously...
[19:40:23] Nebbisk Oh: lol you're just taking advantage of your youth and hand-eye coordination
[19:40:14] Ina Centaur: (lol... i am too much of an SL addict... have tried almost all the FPS systems on SL)
[19:40:01] Ina Centaur: lol. popguns would be great... but if it's FPS, i think i'd beat both of them in 1 shot ;-P
[19:39:45] Mordaina Kasei: hehe
[19:39:35] Ina Centaur: well, basically i will be spending a couple hundred hours migrating things over, terrain, builds, etc.
[19:39:31] Nebbisk Oh: we need to put you, thinkerer and jilly in a circle together and give you popguns ;)
[19:39:16] Nebbisk Oh: i think there's only one thing to do...
[19:38:47] Ina Centaur: Thinkerer, being the alleged philantrophist that he is, may be offering free rent here. however, i vow that i won't have anything further to do with him after this move. i hope he will be able to keep things cordial and civil in this transition phase.
[19:38:22] Nebbisk Oh: well except for tory's tail of course ;)
[19:38:13] Nebbisk Oh: okay... what do you need from us so we keep most everything in this alley exactly the way it is
[19:37:43] Ina Centaur: basically, it will be exactly the same thing as currently, but the other planned buildings will also get built.
[19:37:24] Nebbisk Oh: well then there doesn't seem to be much of a reason NOT to move, does there?
[19:37:02] Ina Centaur: The overall structure of the sLiterary sim will be similar to the current sim; its goal of being a literary and arts mecca will also remain the same.
[19:36:42] Nebbisk Oh: ina can you tell us what the focus will be on the new sim? will it be a place that the writers will want to be? if so, probably all of us will move
[19:34:49] Nebbisk Oh: me too
[19:34:44] ToryLynn Writer: I want to be wherever the writers are :)
[19:34:40] Mordaina Kasei: just crashed
[19:34:39] ToryLynn Writer: I may consider that :)
[19:34:30] Ina Centaur: you are all invited to move :-)
[19:34:06] Nebbisk Oh: or are we invited to move with you?
[19:34:00] Nebbisk Oh: so Ina, will we have shops in the middle of open space when you move?
[19:33:21] Ina Centaur: xmas ao freebie ;-)
[19:32:56] Nebbisk Oh: i can help you fix it -- another time though
[19:32:53] Ina Centaur: hehe. here's the old one i started out with ;-)
[19:32:51] Mordaina Kasei: turned it off
[19:32:39] Mordaina Kasei: yeah it's my animation overrider, I haven't figured out how it works lol
[19:32:04] Nebbisk Oh: mordaina your ao is missing "sexy walk" -- i keep seeing script errors :(
[19:31:37] Mordaina Kasei: indeed, I've been around a while :)
[19:31:36] ToryLynn Writer: hehe.. oops.. my bad :-D
[19:31:24] Nebbisk Oh: mordaina's only new to this area
[19:31:23] Mordaina Kasei: was there a discussion here earlier? saw the listing
[19:31:16] Ina Centaur: cool :-)
[19:31:07] ToryLynn Writer: this is Dawkins and Mordaina, they're new to SL and we're giving them a tour :)
[19:31:06] Ina Centaur: oh... plenty!
[19:30:52] Nebbisk Oh: anything interesting happening? lol j/k
[19:30:28] Ina Centaur: hi :-)
[19:30:27] Mordaina Kasei: hey
[19:30:15] Nebbisk Oh: hi ina
[19:30:12] ToryLynn Writer: hey Ina
[19:29:52] Nebbisk Oh: okay well let's go ins... what she said, lol
[19:29:46] ToryLynn Writer: let's go in
[19:29:42] ToryLynn Writer: I thought she said she did
[19:29:36] Nebbisk Oh: didn't ina start at 8?
[19:29:34] Mordaina Kasei: oh very nice
[19:29:22] Nebbisk Oh: hmm... notody in here?
[13:00:11] [IC-gadgets] Variable Set Rezzer: Trilliam Dyrssen has changed the display to
[13:00:11] [IC-gadgets] Variable Set Rezzer: train thingy
[13:00:05] [IC-gadgets] Variable Set Rezzer: Trilliam Dyrssen has changed the display to
[13:00:05] [IC-gadgets] Variable Set Rezzer: train thingy
[23:30:36] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:29:52] Blundergroin Snoats: i feel like that episode of the Twilght Zone when the elderly couple go to the "Body Shop" to get youthful bodies . . . . hehehehe
[23:06:40] Deanna Bebb: Bye all! Nice chat :) I'll get back to you Ina.
[23:05:45] Deanna Bebb: Bye Clare. See ya :)
[23:05:44] Clare Noel: Bye Guys
[23:05:41] Ina Centaur: hehe tc deanna ;-)
[23:05:34] Clare Noel: he he
[23:05:23] Deanna Bebb: I think I must leave too... It's 11AM in Finland and I'm really supposed to be working...
[23:05:16] Ina Centaur: tc, clare. :-)
[23:05:02] Clare Noel: Ya-I have to go too-I have babies to feed in the morning
[23:04:27] Grrr Bing: Thank you and likewise :)
[23:04:21] Grrr Bing: tc
[23:03:49] Deanna Bebb: Bye Grrr, it was nice to meet you
[23:03:48] Ina Centaur: tc grrr :-)
[23:03:43] Clare Noel: True
[23:03:42] Grrr Bing: bye and ty again
[23:03:33] Ina Centaur: every other week, they send me a book to review. i used to love it, but now i find it's too much reading... and it really does become hte case that if you read enough, all stories are just the same thing
[23:03:32] Clare Noel: Bye Grrrr
[23:03:23] Clare Noel: I'm reading self help books
[23:03:11] Grrr Bing: I'm sorry to have to leave .I'd love to stay but I'm very tired. Thanks for the discussion and I hope to participate again
[23:02:45] Ina Centaur: hmm i have a book i'm supposed to read/review .. Blood of Flowers by Amirrezvani
[23:02:36] Deanna Bebb: Not at the moment
[23:02:08] Clare Noel: So is anyone reading a good book?
[23:01:45] Clare Noel: That's why I nver learned German
[23:01:22] Deanna Bebb: Yes and we study english in school
[23:01:11] Clare Noel: I'm American, but we were stationed there
[23:00:49] Ina Centaur: yes, supposedly all you euro's learn english from the TV? ;-)
[23:00:31] Clare Noel: When I lived in Germany in the 80's there were only 3, one in English. Now I have tons of alternatives.
[22:59:17] Deanna Bebb: seven channels for free and if you have cable, then it of course be hundreds. I don't have cable tv
[22:58:04] Clare Noel: Do they have a lot of channel where you live Deanna?
[22:57:34] Ina Centaur: oh typically i listen to music or just multitask a bunch of software at once
[22:57:32] Deanna Bebb: I don't do other thing while Iäm here...
[22:57:28] Grrr Bing: I think I would recall things better also if I weren't multi tasking, That's a good point
[22:57:05] Clare Noel: For sure
[22:56:56] Clare Noel: You don't do other things while on Second Life?
[22:56:50] Grrr Bing: I find network tv to be pretty insulting to our collective intelligence
[22:56:24] Ina Centaur: i generally can't multitask well having to listen/remember do other things
[22:55:53] Ina Centaur: that's good.
[22:55:32] Grrr Bing: I have it on in the background and listen more than I watch it most of the time and still get much out of it
[22:55:16] Ina Centaur: /me rarely watches TV nowadays :-\
[22:54:59] Grrr Bing: I love the history channel
[22:54:43] Clare Noel: On Cable-next to the History Channel
[22:54:15] Ina Centaur: A and E?
[22:53:26] Clare Noel: I know with Hamlet and all
[22:53:17] Ina Centaur: host/moderate. i would like to participate as just another reader
[22:53:12] Clare Noel: I watch A and E on Sundays
[22:53:06] Ina Centaur: lol, except i might try to find someone else to host the discussion
[22:52:57] Ina Centaur: i would be announcing it to the sLiterary group...
[22:52:50] Grrr Bing: :)
[22:52:40] Grrr Bing: lol
[22:52:30] Ina Centaur: yes, it would give me an excuse to reread a few thousand pages of the greatest story of all time ;-)
[22:52:27] Grrr Bing: I'd like to participate in it if you do.
[22:52:15] Grrr Bing: That's a sad thing Clare, that it isn't common
[22:52:02] Clare Noel: That would be a neat project, Ina
[22:51:59] Grrr Bing: Cool Ina
[22:51:47] Grrr Bing: Thanks Clare
[22:51:23] Ina Centaur: i guess it'd happen on sunday mornings
[22:51:18] Clare Noel: It's not a common combination in Utah
[22:51:04] Ina Centaur: hehe, btw i think i might start a weekly literary discussion of the bible soon
[22:50:20] Clare Noel: Grrr-I was just reading your profile. I think that's neat that you love reading and writing and go to church
[22:50:10] Deanna Bebb: :)
[22:49:56] Grrr Bing: Cool
[22:49:53] Ina Centaur: oh, you might be a good co-director then. :-)
[22:49:47] Deanna Bebb: That sounds interesting Ina
[22:49:32] Deanna Bebb: I've directed Romeo and Juliet and Twelweth night in RL
[22:49:13] Ina Centaur: i am basically just acting as executive producer, rounding up the designers, researchers, actors, etc
[22:48:56] Ina Centaur: hehe. i am just saying... if you want to, you must be serious about it. also, i will not be making the decision. i've deferred the task to a Rl director
[22:48:39] Clare Noel: I will too
[22:48:25] Blundergroin Snoats: /me take's Ina's point and settles back into his chair; humbled and circumspect . . . . .
[22:48:24] Deanna Bebb: Thanks, I'll check that out
[22:47:22] Ina Centaur: http://hamlet.inacentaur.com
[22:46:43] Ina Centaur: blundergroin, over L$2million will be spent on creating custom material for the play... the time committment is non-trivial
[22:45:41] Blundergroin Snoats: Ina I've spent my LIFE waiting . . . .waitng for the right part to come along . . . . . do you think I have a shot at Hamlet?
[22:45:36] Grrr Bing: This will be much better
[22:45:31] Deanna Bebb: What about that Hamlet, Ina? I missed your line
[22:45:23] Grrr Bing: I've only seen one play in Sl. It was at the ROMA sim not done by avatars but by figures.
[22:45:02] Deanna Bebb: One of my professors liked that Dinner so much that he forced every student to watch it :)
[22:44:58] Clare Noel: That will be cool.
[22:44:47] Ina Centaur: auditions have been done... waiting for director to make decisions on casting
[22:44:30] Ina Centaur: hmm... well, i am about to attempt a play that might be mostly animations and speaking (without visible mouth movement) -- a production of Hamlet inworld
[22:44:07] Deanna Bebb: lol
[22:43:48] Blundergroin Snoats: Too much standing and speaking? That was my problem with "My Dinner With Andre" only IT was too much SITTING and SPEAKING
[22:43:20] Deanna Bebb: But there's a lot of action in that play but they missed it somehow
[22:42:50] Deanna Bebb: No it wasen't
[22:42:29] Ina Centaur: so i gather it was not good drama -- the speaking, part?
[22:42:23] Ina Centaur: lol
[22:42:11] Deanna Bebb: The script is good, but the estonian production was lame. Too much standing and speaking.
[22:41:19] Deanna Bebb: Well...
[22:41:12] Ina Centaur: the jonson play
[22:41:05] Ina Centaur: oh, what did you think of it?
[22:40:54] Grrr Bing: lol
[22:40:54] Deanna Bebb: :)
[22:40:46] Ina Centaur: (but then again, homer simpson and dóh are too
[22:40:35] Ina Centaur: shylock is actually defined in the OED btw
[22:40:34] Deanna Bebb: I saw The Johnson play in Estonia a few years ago. The plot is nearly the same as in the Merchant
[22:40:24] Ina Centaur: yes
[22:40:20] Clare Noel: What's the plot of the Ben Johnson play?
[22:39:39] Deanna Bebb: A big stereotype
[22:39:31] Deanna Bebb: The Schylock character has given a name for moneyloaning jew...
[22:39:10] Clare Noel: Shakespeare wrote the play
[22:38:50] Blundergroin Snoats: stereotyping*
[22:38:38] Blundergroin Snoats: moneychanger*
[22:38:37] Grrr Bing: I felt the same way about it
[22:38:27] Ina Centaur: so what about that ben johnson play?
[22:38:27] Blundergroin Snoats: Am I missing something or is the characterization of the "jew" as a "monechanger" being a bit . . . .sterotyping?
[22:38:20] Ina Centaur: yes; we understand you :-)
[22:38:04] Grrr Bing: :)
[22:37:54] Deanna Bebb: Fine then :)
[22:37:48] Grrr Bing: Me too
[22:37:44] Clare Noel: I understood
[22:37:37] Grrr Bing: I think i heard something about that.
[22:37:31] Deanna Bebb: Huh, that was difficult, I hope u understood me, co me native language is finnish...
[22:37:16] Ina Centaur: meh. as in that one case where this UK student sells her virginity to pay her tuition? >.<
[22:37:00] Ina Centaur: >.<
[22:36:42] Grrr Bing: lol
[22:36:34] Deanna Bebb: :)
[22:36:21] Clare Noel: Ya-I tried to pay my student loans that way
[22:36:03] Deanna Bebb: Yes
[22:35:56] Clare Noel: That's were a pound of flesh comes from
[22:35:51] Deanna Bebb: But of course in the end he's not able to do that.
[22:35:44] Ina Centaur: yup pound of flesh
[22:35:26] Deanna Bebb: A he very much woulf like to cut it...
[22:35:00] Deanna Bebb: And they've made a deal that if the mechant can't give money back then the jew is allowd to cut flesh from his heart...
[22:33:43] Deanna Bebb: Girl's father loans money from the jew and has difficult time to buy him back
[22:33:01] Ina Centaur: ah ok.. continue. hehe
[22:32:55] Ina Centaur: don't remember him being involved in the romance... basiano or whatever his name..
[22:32:52] Deanna Bebb: Yes he was, so...
[22:32:37] Ina Centaur: hmm i thought shylock was just the userer
[22:32:30] Deanna Bebb: and here's the twist:
[22:32:16] Deanna Bebb: Shylock get's angry
[22:32:13] Clare Noel: hehe
[22:31:59] Deanna Bebb: But of course she dosen't like him
[22:31:30] Deanna Bebb: A jew called Shylock takes fancy on her
[22:31:05] Deanna Bebb: There's a merchant whose daughter wants to get married
[22:30:27] Ina Centaur: oh merchant of V... pound of flesh and all that
[22:30:19] Deanna Bebb: In short:
[22:30:01] Clare Noel: I have not seen or read Merchent of Venice-What's the plot?
[22:29:21] Deanna Bebb: Seen one, This volpone play, reminds me a bit of Shakespeare's Mechant of Venice
[22:28:33] Ina Centaur: nope, deanna.
[22:28:29] Grrr Bing: Neither have I
[22:28:18] Clare Noel: I haven't
[22:28:10] Deanna Bebb: Have you seen any Ben Johnson's plays on stage?
[22:28:09] Clare Noel: I've been reading lots of history-very different-good stories
[22:26:49] Ina Centaur: sister/cousin .. (american... so fuzzy with the UK history)
[22:26:31] Ina Centaur: and different religion too
[22:26:27] Ina Centaur: yes, her sister was portrayed as this nervous sickly woman..
[22:26:15] Ina Centaur: *her cousin?
[22:26:08] Grrr Bing: She is a figure that changed the world forever
[22:26:08] Grrr Bing: yes
[22:26:05] Ina Centaur: yes, the part where she becomes the virgin queen -- she turns into a statue..
[22:25:56] Clare Noel: Oooh I like that too
[22:25:54] Grrr Bing: The world would be completely different now
[22:25:45] Clare Noel: What if her sister had killed her?
[22:25:36] Grrr Bing: I love the part in the movie in which she becomes almost plaster, like a statue herself.
[22:25:24] Clare Noel: I think the politics are interesting too
[22:25:03] Ina Centaur: you can really feel for her -- it''s not like the other portrayals, where she's just this white-painted doll-like figure
[22:24:55] Deanna Bebb: I agree that, Liked the film a lot
[22:24:50] Grrr Bing: To be married to her cause and pulled off her goals, which seemingly were impossible. She was impressive
[22:24:45] Clare Noel: I like it, I don't know how the history matches though
[22:24:24] Ina Centaur: her final decision to be the virgin queen really made sense
[22:24:23] Grrr Bing: Yes
[22:24:16] Ina Centaur: i think they managed to put a good balance between the political necessities elizabeth had to face and entertainment/moving the story forward
[22:23:21] Ina Centaur: oh yes, mine too!
[22:23:19] Deanna Bebb: I've seen it too
[22:23:17] Ina Centaur: same actress as from shakespare in love.
[22:23:09] Ina Centaur: yes, i think sir greg or was it richard(?) was also in it
[22:23:09] Grrr Bing: It's one of my favorite films
[22:23:00] Clare Noel: Yes
[22:22:50] Ina Centaur: oh clare, have you seen the movie Elizabeth?
[22:22:37] Clare Noel: I like your new avatar Ina, last time I talked to you, you were a Beatnik
[22:22:25] Ina Centaur: (rofl >.,)
[22:22:07] Ina Centaur: abacadabra. magic behold, i turn this blundergroin unto real groins o_O
[22:21:57] Blundergroin Snoats: /me is about to make his boldest transmogrification yet . .. ..
[22:21:54] Ina Centaur: rawr... 4 girls... we need a man.
[22:21:31] Grrr Bing: hahaha
[22:21:24] Ina Centaur: /me has given Blunder skin and shapes so that he can spontaneously turn from beaver to man ;-P
[22:21:20] Blundergroin Snoats: She IS allowed to stay then?
[22:21:14] Grrr Bing: Hi
[22:21:12] Grrr Bing: Ty Snoats
[22:21:11] Deanna Bebb: Hi Grrr
[22:21:00] Blundergroin Snoats: Grrr is someone I can vouch for!
[22:20:47] Grrr Bing: :)
[22:20:45] Grrr Bing: Thanks
[22:20:39] Grrr Bing: Hi
[22:20:33] Ina Centaur: hehe hi grrr, sure :-)
[22:20:24] Grrr Bing: May I join?
[22:20:20] Clare Noel: and the wife had a convient accident down a flight of stairs
[22:20:20] Grrr Bing: Hello
[22:19:55] Clare Noel: Elizabeth had a lover who was married
[22:19:38] Clare Noel: While I was housebound I read the Virgin's Lover by Gregory
[22:19:23] Ina Centaur: hehe. tell us? ;-D
[22:19:04] Deanna Bebb: Ok
[22:18:49] Clare Noel: The real story is even juicier
[22:18:34] Ina Centaur: we got started talking about biographies of notable women :-)
[22:18:27] Deanna Bebb: Thanks :)
[22:18:27] Clare Noel: Yes
[22:18:18] Ina Centaur: deanna, you're welcome to join us
[22:18:17] Clare Noel: Yes-for sure You can join
[22:18:07] Ina Centaur: i generally watch movies for bio's -- have you seen Elizabeth?
[22:17:59] Deanna Bebb: may I join you?
[22:17:59] Clare Noel: Better than any Soap Opera
[22:17:49] Ina Centaur: hehe
[22:17:18] Ina Centaur: oh yes the 6 wives of H the 8...
[22:17:09] Ina Centaur: hehe; i thought the same thing ;-)
[22:16:53] Clare Noel: I thought you were a furry pillow
[22:16:45] Blundergroin Snoats: especaily sitting in this chair! Awwwe. Pobrecito!
[22:16:27] Clare Noel: Why, yes, Now I see what you are
[22:16:07] Clare Noel: I was also reading about the wives of Henry the 8, that drama won out
[22:15:59] Blundergroin Snoats: i don't normally admit to my own narcissism but i cant BELIEVE how adorable I am as a beaver!
[22:15:44] Ina Centaur: hehe. yes. nonfiction typically takes me forever to read too >.<
[22:15:31] Clare Noel: No-too many renewels
[22:15:15] Ina Centaur: aw :-( renew it?
[22:15:09] Clare Noel: They made me take it back to the library
[22:14:50] Clare Noel: I only got half way through
[22:14:30] Clare Noel: I was more interested in her biography
[22:14:17] Ina Centaur: what about you?
[22:14:08] Ina Centaur: i like her fiction
[22:14:02] Ina Centaur: hehe a bit :-)
[22:14:00] Deanna Bebb: HI Ina
[22:13:39] Clare Noel: Are you a fan of Ayn Rand?
[22:13:26] Blundergroin Snoats: hahahahaha
[22:13:01] Ina Centaur: hi deanna
[22:12:53] Ina Centaur: (hi blundergroin beaver)
[22:12:45] Ina Centaur: thanks :-)
[22:12:39] Clare Noel: I like your island-This is my first time here
[22:12:14] Clare Noel: After 3 hours-No wonder
[22:12:06] Ina Centaur: but feel free to continue the discussion
[22:11:50] Ina Centaur: hehe, actually it's both started and ended.. people mostly left\
[22:11:34] Clare Noel: I did not realize the dicussion had started awhile ago
[22:10:43] Clare Noel: Hello
[22:10:31] Ina Centaur: hi clare
[22:10:24] Blundergroin Snoats: beaver!
[22:10:17] Blundergroin Snoats: gnaw!
[22:10:12] Blundergroin Snoats: i missed the discussion tonit!
[22:10:10] Ina Centaur: porcupine!
[22:09:59] Blundergroin Snoats: LAG!
[22:09:57] Blundergroin Snoats: lAG!
[22:08:39] [SLDonate] DarkGlass Tip Bin: Thank you for your donation, Clare Noel!
[21:08:55] Ina Centaur: have fun planning your class :-)
[21:08:48] Ina Centaur: drop me an IM when you're free
[21:08:43] Ina Centaur: would be interested in learning more from you, dahttie
[21:08:25] Ina Centaur: interesting
[21:07:28] Dahttie Habercom: really -- got to go, thanks for the attention, i guess
[21:07:11] Dahttie Habercom: you might guess -- design and aesthetics
[21:06:13] Ina Centaur: what do you teach, dahttie?
[21:04:33] Dahttie Habercom: sorry .. it's a real point ina but i've got to get a class ready, maybe i'll find you later
[21:03:08] Ina Centaur: *hear
[21:03:06] Ina Centaur: if you're up for explaining what you meant, i'm interested to here.
[21:02:53] Ina Centaur: well, dahttie, i'm more or less sitting here afk every so often.
[21:02:33] Ina Centaur: nite jack..
[21:01:42] Jack Sondergaard: well, I can't think of anything else to say right now, I'm getting a bit tired, so good night until tomorrow
[20:58:52] Dahttie Habercom: sorry .. busy
[20:57:26] Ina Centaur: yes
[20:55:39] Jack Sondergaard: the reference for what is true involves reason, that A is A, that effects follow from causes, that if the cause is absent, so will be the effect
[20:55:32] Ina Centaur: so, say you're falling off a cliff... is that an absolute? o_O
[20:55:20] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:53:50] Dahttie Habercom: let's say i'm cautious
[20:53:30] Ina Centaur: oh, so you don't believe in absolutes, dahttie?
[20:53:25] Jack Sondergaard: that's what we have been trying to communicate, what objectivism is about
[20:53:16] Ina Centaur: my understanding of objectivism would derive from that
[20:53:07] Ina Centaur: i have a grasp of Atlas Shrugged and most of Rand's fictional works :-)
[20:53:04] Dahttie Habercom: that there could be a single reference for all that is true
[20:52:46] Dahttie Habercom: just tell me you have a grasp of objectivism
[20:52:37] Jack Sondergaard: what things?
[20:52:34] Ina Centaur: true, but i'm interested in understanding you
[20:52:09] Dahttie Habercom: youre just not familiar with things that i am
[20:52:08] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[20:52:05] Ina Centaur: no, i'm just pullin'yer leg in my usual flip way
[20:51:57] Ina Centaur: but don't worry. we're trying to pull you up from the deep there... EXPLAIN, dahttie~!
[20:51:53] Dahttie Habercom: why are you so hostile ina
[20:51:36] Ina Centaur: dahttie sorta just lapses in and out of coherence. mostly out :-|
[20:50:45] Jack Sondergaard: plurality of what?
[20:50:42] Dahttie Habercom: objectivism
[20:50:36] Dahttie Habercom: but perhaps a plurality
[20:50:34] Jack Sondergaard: no such thing as what?
[20:50:25] Dahttie Habercom: no single thing
[20:50:17] Dahttie Habercom: i'm suggesting there is no such thing
[20:49:57] Dahttie Habercom: within that set jack
[20:49:42] Jack Sondergaard: what do you mean by "talking out of it"?
[20:49:15] Ina Centaur: (sp?)
[20:49:11] Ina Centaur: so, tell me something about architecturalism?
[20:49:10] Dahttie Habercom: youve been talking out of it, but not about it
[20:49:06] Jack Sondergaard: why not really?
[20:49:04] Ina Centaur: objectivism -- the object is the thing
[20:48:55] Dahttie Habercom: sorry, but not really
[20:48:52] Ina Centaur: yes...
[20:48:31] Jack Sondergaard: we have been doing that all along
[20:48:04] Dahttie Habercom: okay, but tell me something about objectivism
[20:47:39] Jack Sondergaard: I think I am saying that things that are absolutes play a large part in architectural design and construction
[20:46:16] Dahttie Habercom: unless youre gaudi, but what are you explaining to me
[20:45:32] Jack Sondergaard: I realise that (especially in smaller structures) aesthetics plays a large part in the design, but in the really big projects, like tunnels, bridges, and skyscrapers, the physical constraints are going to be the major factor in the design
[20:43:00] Dahttie Habercom: no
[20:42:45] Jack Sondergaard: is there a way to build that doesn't take into account what I just said?
[20:42:01] Dahttie Habercom: what?
[20:41:51] Ina Centaur: but.. presumably.. things are different in your world, dahttie? o_O
[20:40:46] Dahttie Habercom: in their world at least
[20:40:28] Dahttie Habercom: so jack, what you just described many people might define as archirectural
[20:39:09] Jack Sondergaard: especially thinking clearly about cause and effect, that to get something done, there must be a rational plan and adequate resources
[20:38:03] Ina Centaur: (i think Rand assumes that productivity follows from thinking
[20:37:42] Ina Centaur: and everymen are those who fit in between
[20:36:12] Ina Centaur: btw, i think that the foundational difference between villains and heroes in A.S. --- ability to think/see clearly vs tendency to completely ignore/hide
[20:36:05] Jack Sondergaard: producer-parasites??
[20:35:46] Ina Centaur: people who fit in between the 2 extremes
[20:35:40] Dahttie Habercom: ididn't mean its inaccurate
[20:35:39] Ina Centaur: well, there are also the everymen
[20:35:31] Dahttie Habercom: yeah, im sure
[20:35:19] Jack Sondergaard: I know plenty of people who fit into one of those 2 categories
[20:34:30] Dahttie Habercom: i agree jack, but it's stark, too stark
[20:32:21] Ina Centaur: hrm, instead of using analogies, can you explicitly explain what you mean, dahtie?
[20:32:16] Jack Sondergaard: as I see it, her heroes are the doers and the thinkers that produce, the villians are the moochers and parasites that produce nothing but live off those who do
[20:32:15] Dahttie Habercom: it's not meant a s an agressive comment, just a comment
[20:31:40] Dahttie Habercom: i'm not sure why that's a problem for you
[20:31:12] Dahttie Habercom: well, its the devil angel thing, they're both christian you know
[20:30:29] Ina Centaur: lol, was about to ask you the same
[20:30:24] Jack Sondergaard: "i said she was a member of a set that included both her villans and her heroes", can you elaborate on that?
[20:30:14] Dahttie Habercom: is that the extent of your dialogue then?
[20:30:09] Ina Centaur: so, tell me... how is basket weaving not like architecture under the point you just made
[20:29:55] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:29:46] Dahttie Habercom: because i was really making a point
[20:29:43] Ina Centaur: yes, quite.
[20:29:36] Dahttie Habercom: is that funny?
[20:29:17] Dahttie Habercom: because it doesn't seem so
[20:29:08] Ina Centaur: yes, seriously misunderstanding you?
[20:28:57] Dahttie Habercom: are you really serious?
[20:28:31] Ina Centaur: seriously, i am really interested in what you mean -- coordinating parts into a whole ... i mean, even basket weaving fits there, too
[20:28:27] Dahttie Habercom: why is that disturbing to you?
[20:28:16] Dahttie Habercom: and that there are other sets
[20:28:07] Dahttie Habercom: i said she was a member of a set that included both her villans and her heroes
[20:28:03] Ina Centaur: dahttie was about to explain how architecture is like its own philosophy? o_O
[20:27:44] Ina Centaur: i think we have deviated from Rand quite a bit
[20:27:13] Dahttie Habercom: i never said anything disproved her
[20:26:53] Jack Sondergaard: and how does set theory disprove Rand?
[20:26:30] Dahttie Habercom: you could, yes
[20:26:23] Jack Sondergaard: are you talking about set theory?
[20:26:04] Ina Centaur: practically everything is about coordinating a bunch of disparate parts into a whole.
[20:26:03] Dahttie Habercom: it's not at all
[20:25:54] Ina Centaur: it's very vague, dahttie.
[20:25:38] Ina Centaur: i think that's all that you said
[20:25:23] Ina Centaur: [21:16] Dahttie Habercom: but its deeply about the possibility to correlate systems [21:17] Dahttie Habercom: to think about systems as entities rather than simple entites within on continuity
[20:24:36] Dahttie Habercom: that's really too bad because so great points were made
[20:23:55] Ina Centaur: likewise..
[20:23:51] Dahttie Habercom: i guess so
[20:23:42] Jack Sondergaard: I must have missed something
[20:23:20] Dahttie Habercom: oh sorry ... i already have
[20:23:13] Ina Centaur: ???
[20:21:02] Dahttie Habercom: along with essential artists and architects
[20:20:54] Ina Centaur: defend or explain your assertion?
[20:20:41] Jack Sondergaard: modernism or post-modernism
[20:20:28] Ina Centaur: meh, i'd say the Modernist philosophers/writers are at the base of modernism...
[20:19:03] Jack Sondergaard: what have we done to start a fight?
[20:19:01] Dahttie Habercom: architectural theory is at the base of modernism
[20:18:40] Dahttie Habercom: you don't know much about it, or youre trying to start a fight
[20:18:38] Ina Centaur: um... so is basket weaving them o_O
[20:18:33] Ina Centaur: ok, so it's like machinating a bunch of discontinuous entities into one...
[20:18:14] Jack Sondergaard: exactly how am I being naive?
[20:17:51] Jack Sondergaard: it's not like drawing cartoons
[20:17:41] Dahttie Habercom: don't be naive
[20:17:28] Jack Sondergaard: correlating systems that involve framing, flooring, plumbing, wiring, etc.
[20:17:22] Dahttie Habercom: one continuity
[20:17:07] Dahttie Habercom: to think about systems as entities rather than simple entites within on continuity
[20:16:24] Dahttie Habercom: but its deeply about the possibility to correlate systems
[20:16:04] Dahttie Habercom: true jack, its an art of constraints
[20:15:50] Jack Sondergaard: you can't just build a skyscraper like a modernist painting
[20:15:35] Ina Centaur: but, still, it's like saying __ is just a way of thinking...
[20:15:19] Ina Centaur: well, yes, when you take a class on architecture, you also get the sidetext... i.e., the interpretive edition that attempts to apply a philosophy to arc
[20:14:58] Jack Sondergaard: the physical world and laws of nature impose some absolutes into architecture
[20:14:45] Dahttie Habercom: wow, okay
[20:14:26] Dahttie Habercom: not if you go to harvard or some other decorated diagram school
[20:14:16] Ina Centaur: dahttie, yes, explain what you mean about architecture is just a way of thinking..
[20:13:54] Jack Sondergaard: architecture is also about things like building materials, wind shear strenght, bridge girder loading capacity, construction methods; that's a lot more than just a way of thinking
[20:13:15] Dahttie Habercom: it denies the absolutism of any system, jack
[20:12:30] Dahttie Habercom: architecture is just a way of thinking, really, and inextrcable from modernism, post included
[20:12:17] Jack Sondergaard: that it denies that any truth can be know for certain about anything, is that true?
[20:11:56] Dahttie Habercom: not really ina
[20:11:43] Ina Centaur: i'm still not seeing how architecture relates... this is like saying red relates to houses because houses are sometimes painted red o_O
[20:11:32] Dahttie Habercom: what ever, do you know anything about it
[20:11:16] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I know Derrida is a big name in post-modernism
[20:11:14] Ina Centaur: um...
[20:10:32] Dahttie Habercom: okay, i hate to say it but derrida
[20:09:15] Dahttie Habercom: goodness gracious ...
[20:08:29] Ina Centaur: ok, so rand is analytical, and ... what was the point about divergent opposites and architecture?
[20:08:08] Ina Centaur: lol dahttie. i'm sure if we had standing room audience only, we'd still all be confused about what you're trying to say ;-)
[20:08:04] Dahttie Habercom: plenty, she's pretty analytical and system sensitive .. you don't think?
[20:07:45] Jack Sondergaard: I'm not, but what does continuities as it relates to architecture have to do with what you are saying about Rand
[20:07:12] Dahttie Habercom: same mind however
[20:07:12] Ina Centaur: i'm not sure how architecture has anything do with this? ... or with Rand, in general?
[20:06:59] Ina Centaur: but, since atlas shrugged (unlike the fountainhead) has virtually nothing to do with architecture...
[20:06:40] Ina Centaur: no, but i am familiar with some principles
[20:06:05] Dahttie Habercom: are either of you people architects
[20:05:51] Ina Centaur: dahttie, please explain..
[20:05:15] Dahttie Habercom: and?
[20:05:08] Jack Sondergaard: A is not the opposite of A
[20:04:57] Dahttie Habercom: they are if you introduce other continuities
[20:04:54] Jack Sondergaard: A is A
[20:04:35] Jack Sondergaard: because 2 opposites are not the same thing
[20:04:19] Dahttie Habercom: great .. so why the hard time about that point?
[20:04:00] Jack Sondergaard: yes, all the time
[20:03:51] Dahttie Habercom: do you read much besides rand?
[20:03:50] Jack Sondergaard: that doesn't make them the same thing
[20:03:37] Dahttie Habercom: system
[20:03:33] Dahttie Habercom: they are contained within one operative systek
[20:03:19] Dahttie Habercom: yes they are
[20:03:10] Jack Sondergaard: 2 extremes are not the same thing
[20:02:59] Dahttie Habercom: and there is nothing vague about it
[20:02:52] Ina Centaur: honestly dahttie...
[20:02:49] Dahttie Habercom: they are two extremes of a single continuity
[20:02:44] Ina Centaur: meh.. that is so perfectly completely vague
[20:02:40] Jack Sondergaard: what do devils and angels have to do with Rand?
[20:02:23] Jack Sondergaard: how are they the same?
[20:01:56] Dahttie Habercom: is that vague enough?
[20:01:23] Dahttie Habercom: i'm saying devils and angels are the same thing
[20:00:53] Ina Centaur: yes, are you just saying that cannibalistic capitism is ideal and a little bit wrong -- like the crystler ornament? o_O
[20:00:10] Jack Sondergaard: can you explain it more precisely?
[20:00:00] Ina Centaur: dahttie, you're being vague...
[19:59:34] Dahttie Habercom: and a little bit wrong
[19:59:27] Dahttie Habercom: its ideal
[19:59:16] Dahttie Habercom: early at least
[19:59:11] Dahttie Habercom: how can you even start rand with out a 20c atrchitectural sensibility
[19:58:28] Dahttie Habercom: what?
[19:58:09] Jack Sondergaard: how does the Chrysler ornament relate to this?
[19:57:28] Dahttie Habercom: right .. like the chrysler ornament
[19:57:14] Ina Centaur: as in purge, and rebuild?
[19:57:08] Ina Centaur: purify a system?
[19:56:34] Dahttie Habercom: well ...l maybe so jack
[19:56:16] Jack Sondergaard: a lot of fair trade does happen in the world, which is why the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people has risen
[19:56:12] Dahttie Habercom: that's just naive i have to say it -- to purify a system is just about the same as to accept it
[19:56:01] Ina Centaur: cannibalistic capitalism would be like someone mooching a company via subpoena or something
[19:55:40] Ina Centaur: well, ok, Rand isn't about cannibalistic capitalism. like jack says, it's about fair trade -- value for value, no less
[19:54:34] Ina Centaur: (morveren)
[19:54:33] Morveren Ceawlin: hi ina
[19:54:27] Ina Centaur: (hi moreveren)
[19:54:25] Dahttie Habercom: j g
[19:54:25] Morveren Ceawlin: this is comfy
[19:54:17] Ina Centaur: ballard?
[19:54:05] Dahttie Habercom: i think you should read -- or discuss -- more ballard and we might see
[19:53:39] Ina Centaur: now, tell me how it's not.
[19:53:33] Ina Centaur: yes
[19:53:10] Dahttie Habercom: now really, can you believe that's possible
[19:52:35] Jack Sondergaard: she promoted trading fair value with fair value, no one getting an unfair deal in the trade
[19:49:44] Ina Centaur: *d
[19:49:42] Ina Centaur: yes, i think there's a lot of bad media about Rand because she uses words in a very Rand-ian way... for example, she has a completely different definition of "selfishness" than the stanard one
[19:48:53] Jack Sondergaard: I've worked for the kind of capitalists who make their employees victums, almost like slaves, that's not what Rand promoted
[19:48:48] Ina Centaur: and then the heroes -- the people who produce everything and make things run... and whom the looters attempt to buy off, etc.
[19:48:28] Ina Centaur: anyway, in atlas shrugged, there are the villains -- the looters who are cannibal-capitalists... they get rich by mooching companies
[19:48:04] Dahttie Habercom: tell me
[19:47:53] Ina Centaur: nah, dahttie, she's exactly against cannibal capitalism
[19:47:52] Dahttie Habercom: what?
[19:47:37] Ina Centaur: something like that o_o
[19:47:37] Jack Sondergaard: and everyone must take care of their own interests, because if they don't they will just end up living off the work of others
[19:47:30] Ina Centaur: the oath that the strikers take, "i promise that i will never let someone depend on me, or let myself be dependent on someone else..."
[19:47:30] Dahttie Habercom: not so much diamond sutra
[19:47:10] Dahttie Habercom: her real point was cannibal capital perhaps
[19:46:58] Ina Centaur: dahttie, you've read atlas shrugged?
[19:46:46] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:46:37] Dahttie Habercom: really
[19:46:30] Jack Sondergaard: her main point was that no one should either be a victum of others or make others a victum
[19:46:14] Dahttie Habercom: in robert
[19:46:07] Ina Centaur: inrobert?
[19:45:55] Dahttie Habercom: like inrobert or howard
[19:45:37] Jack Sondergaard: maybe by today's standards, she is certainly viewed as very stern
[19:45:31] Dahttie Habercom: i'm not interested in supplying my own dialogue
[19:45:02] Dahttie Habercom: i was curious if anything was actually said here
[19:44:45] Dahttie Habercom: not really
[19:44:36] Ina Centaur: dahttie was about to argue about how rand was dark and evil
[19:43:20] Jack Sondergaard: I'm having trouble keeping SL running, so I quit everything else
[19:41:18] Dahttie Habercom: what?
[19:41:05] Ina Centaur: floor's open, dahttie?
[19:40:54] Ina Centaur: depends on how you argue
[19:40:17] Dahttie Habercom: would you argue?
[19:40:03] Ina Centaur: so, dark rand psyche, dahttie?
[19:39:49] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:39:22] Dahttie Habercom: she's like some beatrix potter ferret loose in ... fishermans wharf i guess
[19:38:30] Dahttie Habercom: yo what happened to jackie
[19:38:06] Dahttie Habercom: look at her bug eyes ... just look
[19:37:23] Dahttie Habercom: come on
[19:37:16] Dahttie Habercom: same thing for today
[19:37:11] Ina Centaur: what's dark about the rand psyche, dahttie?
[19:37:09] Dahttie Habercom: www like rand perhaps
[19:36:56] Ina Centaur: hehe we went to world war web... since i guess 30 days of rand was too much for people o_O
[19:36:46] Dahttie Habercom: whatever
[19:36:39] Ina Centaur: oh lol you want to discuss Rand, Dahttie?
[19:36:32] Ina Centaur: jack, what were you saying about the operating systems?
[19:36:28] Dahttie Habercom: so come on people what's with the dark rand psyche here
[19:36:16] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:35:45] Dahttie Habercom: nice boa man
[19:35:05] Dahttie Habercom: yo jack sit down youre makin me sick
[19:33:54] Dahttie Habercom: hmmm
[19:33:36] Ina Centaur: and jack was about to explain secure operating systems
[19:33:30] Ina Centaur: hmmm we were having a discussion on something called the world war web...
[19:32:26] Dahttie Habercom: what's up here
[19:31:48] Dahttie Habercom: hi
[19:31:41] Ina Centaur: hi dahttie
[19:30:41] Ina Centaur: i am not familiar with operating system theory...
[19:30:10] Ina Centaur: hum...
[19:28:06] Jack Sondergaard: in insecure operating systems, the default is to patch the holes when they are found, in secure ones, you only give permission to specific programs to do specific things to specific files, it's more work initially, but vastly more secure
[19:27:09] Ina Centaur: interesting
[19:26:32] Berny Alvarado: you guys are totally inmerse in something else...have a pleasent night...good bye...
[19:25:36] Berny Alvarado: Im sorry, can you giv eme and example of insecure systems?
[19:23:50] Berny Alvarado: example...
[19:23:22] Berny Alvarado: and the motivations..
[19:23:19] Jack Sondergaard: I think we will all be using them soon
[19:23:12] Berny Alvarado: its interesting how some persons can do all taht damage...
[19:23:10] Jack Sondergaard: there are some very secure operating systems, used mostly by banks and the military
[19:22:49] Ina Centaur: how do you think a digital ww3 might start?
[19:22:42] Berny Alvarado: if you think about the power of this hackers..
[19:22:38] Ina Centaur: but, i see where you are coming from. ww3 might be digital?
[19:22:31] Berny Alvarado: indeed...now...
[19:22:18] Ina Centaur: that'd be interesting ;-)
[19:22:15] Ina Centaur: now, if hackers got into china's great firewall...
[19:22:03] Berny Alvarado: indeed..
[19:22:02] Ina Centaur: also, it's a country that most people have not heard of
[19:21:59] Berny Alvarado: oh..im sorry...
[19:21:53] Ina Centaur: we get too used to it
[19:21:51] Ina Centaur: hackers get into things everyday
[19:21:47] Anabelle Paine: listening
[19:21:44] Ina Centaur: well
[19:21:29] Berny Alvarado: guys?
[19:21:12] Berny Alvarado: untik the fuse goes off....
[19:21:06] Berny Alvarado: on how much we are dependant on tehcnology...
[19:20:56] Berny Alvarado: nobody pays attention anymore..
[19:20:22] Berny Alvarado: and nobody seems to know nothing...
[19:20:08] Berny Alvarado: what its most amazong its that I have ask a lot of persons about this,...
[19:19:45] Jack Sondergaard: I'll check it out
[19:19:43] Berny Alvarado: its sounds like science fiction...
[19:19:36] Berny Alvarado: www.wired.com.co
[19:19:32] Berny Alvarado: please read it in the wride magazoine...
[19:19:22] Berny Alvarado: but the damage its huge...
[19:19:15] Berny Alvarado: nobody bleeds..
[19:19:12] Berny Alvarado: its like a an atomic bomb,,,,
[19:19:01] Ina Centaur: at least with this kind of war, no one is gunned in the fight
[19:18:54] Berny Alvarado: but nobody help this country,,,
[19:18:53] Ina Centaur: traditional physical terrorists vs hackers -- which do you prefer?
[19:18:46] Berny Alvarado: its member of the european union,.,..
[19:18:33] Jack Sondergaard: sounds like they are a lot like SL
[19:18:32] Berny Alvarado: the deal this country,,,
[19:18:27] Berny Alvarado: now....
[19:18:25] Berny Alvarado: trought cumputers attacks....
[19:18:14] Berny Alvarado: render a country to their kness...
[19:18:05] Berny Alvarado: but some group of russian hackers..
[19:17:54] Berny Alvarado: indeed Jack
[19:17:45] Berny Alvarado: the think its...thata was 2 weeks ago...
[19:17:44] Jack Sondergaard: paper can be a pain in business, but it adds a layer of safety
[19:17:36] Berny Alvarado: to a total caos...
[19:17:31] Berny Alvarado: etc...
[19:17:30] Berny Alvarado: comunications...
[19:17:25] Berny Alvarado: the banks render the hole country..newspapers...
[19:17:09] Berny Alvarado: and no internet working...
[19:16:59] Berny Alvarado: and banks..
[19:16:52] Berny Alvarado: such as govermente entities...
[19:16:45] Berny Alvarado: since they have paperlees burocracy..\
[19:16:38] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:16:36] Jack Sondergaard: ouch
[19:16:30] Berny Alvarado: basically some hackers attack the country for two weeks...
[19:16:23] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I've heard of the cell phone payments
[19:16:10] Berny Alvarado: and 90% of the banking there its on line...
[19:15:55] Berny Alvarado: and your parking..
[19:15:51] Berny Alvarado: and you pay your sodas with your cell phone..
[19:15:39] Berny Alvarado: well the have free wi fi
[19:15:18] Berny Alvarado: estocolm..near russina, now the country??
[19:15:03] Berny Alvarado: yeah..let me explian....but I think its huge deal...
[19:14:52] Jack Sondergaard: no, what's in the news about it?
[19:14:52] Ina Centaur: as in wordl war on the web ? O_o
[19:14:45] Ina Centaur: world war web, berny?
[19:14:40] Ina Centaur: hehe np
[19:14:20] Anabelle Paine: I am usually not that clumsy
[19:14:15] Berny Alvarado: today I was reading in wired magazine.... about the first world war web..have hyou hear anything in the news??
[19:14:12] Anabelle Paine: ouch sorry I ran over you Jack
[19:14:00] Jack Sondergaard: hi Anabelle
[19:13:59] Ina Centaur: hi annabelle
[19:13:45] Jack Sondergaard: yes, please stay
[19:13:44] Berny Alvarado: cool thanks.....
[19:13:32] Ina Centaur: sure, berny, you can even start a discussion if you want
[19:13:24] Ina Centaur: the original plan was to have everyone read a chapter of atlas shrugged a day for 30 days... but we've all lost the schedule by now ;-)
[19:13:13] Berny Alvarado: do you mind if i stay?
[19:13:06] Ina Centaur: this is open discussion, berny
[19:12:53] Berny Alvarado: Im reading now.....oh , I see...you already start a lecture.....
[19:12:45] Jack Sondergaard: yes, and old saying about the world being on the back of a turtle
[19:12:39] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:12:07] Jack Sondergaard: oh, yes, they are included in everything
[19:11:51] Ina Centaur: turtles?
[19:11:32] Jack Sondergaard: you forgot to mention the turtles
[19:11:09] Ina Centaur: welcome to our atlas shrugged, ayn rand, philosophy, life, the universre, and everything discussion :-D
[19:10:42] Jack Sondergaard: hi Berny
[19:10:27] Ina Centaur: hi berny.
[19:10:13] Berny Alvarado: good evening....everithing its donwloading really slow....
[19:09:20] Jack Sondergaard: and trying out some geometry software too
[19:09:07] Jack Sondergaard: Complete Idiot's Guide to Algebra
[19:08:12] Ina Centaur: which algebra?
[19:07:59] Jack Sondergaard: algebra
[19:07:52] Ina Centaur: cool, which math?
[19:07:26] Jack Sondergaard: I was off work today, been studying some math
[19:05:33] Jack Sondergaard: hello
[19:05:18] Ina Centaur: hi!
[22:24:12] Ina Centaur: :-)
[22:24:04] Deanna Bebb: You too :)
[22:23:57] Ina Centaur: tc ;-)
[22:23:55] Ina Centaur: well, have a writeful day
[22:23:52] Deanna Bebb: Bye :)
[22:23:43] Ina Centaur: thank you :-)
[22:23:33] [SLDonate] DarkGlass Tip Bin: Thank you for your donation, Deanna Bebb!
[22:23:09] Deanna Bebb: I'm supposed to be working now , but maybe well see again. It was nice to meet you Ina.
[22:22:02] Ina Centaur: :-)
[22:21:45] Deanna Bebb: I'm glad to find a writer's group here. That feels like home :)
[22:20:53] Deanna Bebb: Yeah, that's cool.
[22:20:31] Ina Centaur: oh, it's pretty much exactly like RL but you can fly ;-)
[22:19:58] Deanna Bebb: I'm quite a newbie here, just starting to learn how to cope here
[22:19:19] Deanna Bebb: :)
[22:19:04] Ina Centaur: i am in too many groups on this account. it is a pity LL has a limit on 25 groups.
[22:18:41] Ina Centaur: yes, but on a new alt
[22:18:23] Deanna Bebb: Are you a member of that group?
[22:17:48] Ina Centaur: cool :-)
[22:17:37] Deanna Bebb: I just joined Inksters and found your place that way
[22:17:04] Ina Centaur: thanks :-)
[22:16:51] Deanna Bebb: Nice place here
[22:16:31] xDeanna:
[22:16:30] Deanna Bebb: Thanks :)
[22:16:22] Ina Centaur: sure :-)
[22:16:15] xDeanna:
[22:16:13] Deanna Bebb: Is is okay to stop by?
[22:16:00] Deanna Bebb: Hi there
[22:16:00] xDeanna:
[22:15:50] Ina Centaur: hi!
[21:49:35] Jack Sondergaard: u2
[21:49:20] Ina Centaur: tc
[21:49:19] Ina Centaur: nite jack
[21:49:11] Jack Sondergaard: good night Ina
[21:47:05] Jack Sondergaard: see you tomorrow
[21:46:51] Jack Sondergaard: well, I think I will call it quits for tonight
[21:44:25] Ina Centaur: lol yes!
[21:44:19] Ina Centaur: lol
[21:44:15] Jack Sondergaard: yes, they will use reason to deny reason, consiousness to deny consiousness, etc.
[21:44:14] Ina Centaur: "oh, so now you're blaming me for refuting Prichett. oh, who am i to blame? it's the opinion of hte majority that counts; we'd have to ask the general public what they think."
[21:43:45] Ina Centaur: "hey jim.. you just said an absolute."
[21:43:29] Ina Centaur: but what's interesting is that if you confront them... you'd find that they'd deny it.
[21:42:50] Ina Centaur: they do use guns and weapons..
[21:42:46] Ina Centaur: yes, so even the looters make "absolute statements"
[21:42:37] Ina Centaur: lol
[21:39:44] Jack Sondergaard: that's funny because the last words are a good definition of an absolute
[21:39:35] Ina Centaur: why is that good though..?
[21:38:40] Jack Sondergaard: found it exactly, "There are no absolutes - as Dr. Pritchett has proved irrefutably."
[21:37:35] Ina Centaur: lol.. why is that good?
[21:36:44] Jack Sondergaard: he said "Dr. Ferris proved beyond refutation that there are no absolutes", something like that
[21:35:52] Jack Sondergaard: OK, I remember now
[21:35:20] Harman Mayo: a pleasure as always, Jack and Ina
[21:34:38] Harman Mayo: think i'm going to call it a night - need to work on another project before sleep
[21:31:49] Ina Centaur: hehe
[21:29:57] Harman Mayo: i crashed hard that time
[21:29:49] Harman Mayo: yep
[21:29:33] Ina Centaur: editorial comment?
[21:28:31] Jack Sondergaard: I'll see if I can find it
[21:27:20] Ina Centaur: the first lines of the speech?
[21:27:10] Ina Centaur: what did it sound like?
[21:27:09] Harman Mayo: hmm - editorial comment from the gods of the internet, i think
[21:25:24] Jack Sondergaard: I can't remember it, I need to highlight the best parts of the book
[21:24:44] Jack Sondergaard: there was a line in the speech I listened to today that was good, when James Taggert first met Cheryl
[21:21:28] Ina Centaur: lol
[21:21:22] Jack Sondergaard: crashed probably
[21:21:08] Ina Centaur: guess he gave up the good fight O_o
[21:20:41] Ina Centaur: hum
[21:17:13] Ina Centaur: that the fight they did earlier was useless
[21:17:07] Ina Centaur: galt convinces the few remaining people that if they stay, they'll perish
[21:16:57] Ina Centaur: ]it's realistic, no?
[21:16:10] Harman Mayo: yes
[21:15:00] Ina Centaur: when it became apparent the country was in ruins
[21:14:52] Ina Centaur: and then more people later on
[21:13:47] Harman Mayo: the hysteria that swept the country then destroyed mant careers
[21:13:26] Ina Centaur: i think, at first Galt could only get a few people to agree
[21:13:05] Ina Centaur: hmm
[21:12:51] Jack Sondergaard: when the bridge blew up, wasn't it?
[21:12:44] Harman Mayo: i think Rand was influenced by the wave of McCarthyism
[21:10:15] Ina Centaur: but why did she quit in the end?
[21:10:12] Ina Centaur: i mean... Dagny would be the case that Rand makes makes most realistic in your view.. since she keeps on resisting
[21:09:49] Ina Centaur: well, i think it's easy to get the guys to quit if you get them at the right time. it's a mind job, really
[21:09:29] Ina Centaur: hmm
[21:08:20] Ina Centaur: not to mention, its events seem deja-vu-ish to modern events
[21:08:02] Ina Centaur: richard 3... a.s. -- there's all sorts of quirks associated with each character
[21:07:45] Jack Sondergaard: R3?
[21:07:28] Harman Mayo: true
[21:07:17] Ina Centaur: lol, but a.s. is much longer than R3
[21:07:13] Harman Mayo: personally, i putthe actions of the strikers into the 'warp drive" category - essential to the story - but not realistic
[21:02:53] Harman Mayo: it's like trying to convince the public that shakespeare portrayed richard the 3rd unrealistically - the facts aren't pertinent to the perception
[21:01:16] Harman Mayo: if we were to do that we'd be rewriting the book - and the deck is stacked against us
[21:00:50] Jack Sondergaard: yes, the one's who buy polititians
[21:00:10] Ina Centaur: hmm, well, was hoping you'd have a case to bring up.. on which of the strikers might have resisted Galt and how
[20:59:45] Ina Centaur: but notice how the monopolies encouraged are the looter's monopolies -- taggart and boyle's especially
[20:59:31] Ina Centaur: yes..
[20:58:02] Jack Sondergaard: and since too many restrictions would discourage people from starting businesses, that would discourage competition and encourage monopolies
[20:55:12] Jack Sondergaard: not a specific business name, but I remember that a lot of paperwork put on business had to eliminated because it became a rediculous burden
[20:53:41] Ina Centaur: hmmm... let's analyze a case for example -- do you have one in mind?
[20:51:53] Harman Mayo: her point is valid
[20:51:46] Harman Mayo: yep
[20:51:38] Jack Sondergaard: yes, if you put too many restrictions on business, you make business impossible
[20:51:15] Harman Mayo: but even in a society in the throes of collapse - i still think that the strikers were too easily persuaded - its essential for the plot to work - but overly simplistic in life
[20:50:45] Ina Centaur: hmm cock the goose?
[20:49:54] Jack Sondergaard: I think the point Rand was trying to make was that if you cook the goose, no more golden eggs
[20:49:16] Harman Mayo: would that it were actually so
[20:47:56] Ina Centaur: each one is supposed to be of issue big enough to reach there.
[20:47:51] Harman Mayo: true
[20:47:42] Ina Centaur: there aren't that manysupreme court cases.
[20:47:25] Ina Centaur: jack: it's more than a setback for midas. his case was approved by the state court, but reversed by the federal court!
[20:47:03] Ina Centaur: why did she break?
[20:46:56] Ina Centaur: that's what Dagny continuously tries to do
[20:46:55] Jack Sondergaard: yes, like Midas, leaving after one setback
[20:46:47] Harman Mayo: they maintain an inner confidence that they can do it again
[20:46:27] Harman Mayo: these men have already beaten the odds
[20:45:39] Harman Mayo: that's my fundamental disagreement with Rand - i find it improbable that the men who had built their companies from the ground up would be willing to walk away - no matter how reasonable Galt's arguments
[20:43:36] Ina Centaur: well, let's try examples then... take any of the strikers whom galt approached... how could they have resisted galt?
[20:42:41] Harman Mayo: sure - a prime mover has a different paradigm than the average person - they have to
[20:42:17] Ina Centaur: reason occurs, despite how certain weakness/strength facts are thrown out
[20:41:56] Ina Centaur: well, to form a hypothesis, you have to throw out some outlier facts
[20:41:53] Jack Sondergaard: they see the solution to a problem
[20:41:32] Harman Mayo: it's a kind of "selective blindness"
[20:41:28] Jack Sondergaard: they know something others don't
[20:41:11] Jack Sondergaard: yes, they calculate the risks
[20:41:10] Harman Mayo: no - but they press on - despite the nay sayers
[20:40:48] Ina Centaur: risk takers don't jump into risks blindly
[20:40:40] Ina Centaur: it takes reason to plan things out so that it'd succeed despite the odds -- which everyone else claim impossible
[20:40:34] Jack Sondergaard: it takes a risk-taker
[20:40:26] Ina Centaur: harman, is that a play on words?
[20:40:12] Harman Mayo: it takes an unreasonable mind to do what everyone else says cannot be done
[20:39:58] Ina Centaur: i mean, we're not talking stock investors. we're talking about the breed of enterpreneurs who actually created their own market
[20:39:40] Ina Centaur: lol, i think it has to be o_O
[20:39:20] Harman Mayo: sure - but reasonable is not a trait of the entrepeneur
[20:38:32] Ina Centaur: and does not sound crazy... rather, just mercilessly reasonable ^.~
[20:38:17] Ina Centaur: not to mention... what if the person who attempts to convince you is someone you either admire or find to have this brilliant mind
[20:37:31] Harman Mayo: yes - i agree that that's how Rand saw and portrayed it
[20:36:47] Ina Centaur: it's the fact that he knew that were he in rearden's place, he would be the victim in sanction of the victim -- and this is not just rearden's family, but the role big/efficient industrialists play
[20:36:28] Harman Mayo: but it's one thing to make a choice personally - to convince others = especially those in positions of power - is quite another
[20:36:12] Ina Centaur: it's not merely a rejection of that lifestyle
[20:35:32] Jack Sondergaard: I don't remember that
[20:35:29] Harman Mayo: because Galt had rejected that lifestyle
[20:34:49] Ina Centaur: galt had envied him for a second and then not... why?
[20:34:38] Jack Sondergaard: no, it's definitely a parable, a story to teach some lessons
[20:34:35] Ina Centaur: Rearden was in some expensive clothing getting off his limo, etc., at some industrial convention
[20:34:18] Harman Mayo: similar to Bread and Circusses
[20:34:18] Ina Centaur: harman, remember the part where Galt recalls how he first saw Rearen
[20:34:05] Harman Mayo: yes
[20:33:55] Jack Sondergaard: you can't make something out of nothing, but the looters were always expecting that to happen
[20:33:44] Harman Mayo: doesn't negate the value of the book - but i can't suspend disbelief enough to believe that ot could actually happen
[20:33:02] Jack Sondergaard: I think she has it right about the fact that many people demand you produce more with less, but they haven't a clue how to do it, it's simple accounting; if there's a debit, there's also a credit
[20:31:13] Harman Mayo: Rand wasn't a businesswoman - so she didn't grok the mindset
[20:30:43] Jack Sondergaard: if people in a business demand you do something, you have to be able to stand up to them and say, OK, where are the resources to do it?
[20:30:24] Harman Mayo: and the single mindedness of purpose that it requires to succeed in business isn't something you can just turn off
[20:29:25] Harman Mayo: walking away from something you've built is hard
[20:29:16] Jack Sondergaard: what I'm learning is what I did wrong in many of my past jobs, how I let people bully me because I didn't know how to respond
[20:29:06] Harman Mayo: but it's not that simple
[20:28:25] Ina Centaur: and in comes Galt... join me and quit all this b/s
[20:28:23] Harman Mayo: the bible teaches a great deal - and it's almost entirely parables
[20:28:17] Ina Centaur: these are atlas'es who are on the verge of collapsing. at that point, they need a hero to collapse on
[20:28:03] Ina Centaur: hmm, i think galt approached these guys at the right time
[20:28:00] Harman Mayo: true
[20:27:51] Jack Sondergaard: yes, but most novels are unrealistic, yet they teach us something anyway
[20:27:45] Harman Mayo: t's a great work of fiction - but it wouldn't happen - imo
[20:27:42] Ina Centaur: i think the technical details of Midias purchasing land from the government is a flaw though..
[20:27:07] Harman Mayo: another bit of great literature - but again - unrealistic
[20:26:33] Ina Centaur: *side
[20:26:31] Ina Centaur: i think that psychologically each of the strikers were reached at the "prime time" to turn over to the Galt skide
[20:26:09] Ina Centaur: galt approached him at the perfect time
[20:26:01] Harman Mayo: yes - but in the real world the business would just be moved overseas to a friendlier climate
[20:25:35] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I listened to that today
[20:24:57] Ina Centaur: Midas had just been subpoenaed to grant a loan to a man he had rejected the loan to and who had file suit for that
[20:24:53] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I think a lot of people become entrepreneurs because they get so fed up with all the crap at their jobs
[20:23:55] Harman Mayo: it takes a great deal of ego to be an entrepeneur
[20:23:38] Ina Centaur: Midas was the first non-inner-circle striker
[20:23:34] Harman Mayo: but the prime movers in real life are notoriously single minded
[20:23:32] Jack Sondergaard: and how often in real life do you find someone who will listen to a rational explanation of your viewpoint (in business)?
[20:23:05] Ina Centaur: in a way, Galt does a mind trick of his own..
[20:22:49] Harman Mayo: very true, Jack
[20:22:45] Ina Centaur: and then he builds momentum on the person's loss -- and their optimism to avoid making the same mistake again
[20:22:31] Jack Sondergaard: yes, and some people don't know when their self interest steps on someone else's rights
[20:22:25] Ina Centaur: let's see how Galt gets people... he approaches them after a big disillusioning loss
[20:21:54] Ina Centaur: heh heh
[20:21:49] Harman Mayo: oh - remember 9/11?
[20:21:19] Jack Sondergaard: in a novel you can kill people to make a point, for effect, but not in real life
[20:21:03] Harman Mayo: that many self driven people would never be willing to step down
[20:20:53] Jack Sondergaard: real life is more complex
[20:20:33] Ina Centaur: why not?
[20:20:24] Harman Mayo: but it isn't realistic
[20:20:13] Harman Mayo: Galt's Gulch is a utopian dream
[20:19:29] Harman Mayo: ie - don't think it would happen in real life
[20:19:08] Ina Centaur: "really" ?
[20:18:50] Harman Mayo: primarily because i don't feel that Galt could "really" persuade the movers to quit society
[20:18:43] Ina Centaur: why?
[20:17:49] Harman Mayo: i don't think it is
[20:17:41] Harman Mayo: guess that leaves me to answer
[20:16:09] Ina Centaur: hmm so you don't think A.S. is realistically plausible?
[20:14:58] Jack Sondergaard: if done in real life it wouuld be
[20:14:33] Ina Centaur: hmm, but is it too extreme?
[20:14:20] Jack Sondergaard: it seems to get the point across, that the looters can't run a society by themselves
[20:13:14] Jack Sondergaard: nothing wrong with talking to a cat, usually the most intelligent listener around
[20:12:57] Ina Centaur: question is -- what do you think of Galt's shrugging and actions pertinent to that
[20:12:39] Ina Centaur: since you've both finished the book...
[20:12:37] Harman Mayo: yeah - let's get on topic
[20:12:15] Ina Centaur: lol... so want to try for a brief bout of yet moreA.S. discussion?
[20:12:08] Harman Mayo: have always talked to my cat - won't worry too much until it starts talking back
[20:11:26] Harman Mayo: yep
[20:11:17] Ina Centaur: " i'm not just being weird now; i'm just being like my usual weird self" ^.~
[20:11:03] Ina Centaur: good excuse^^
[20:10:58] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:10:45] Harman Mayo: but have carefully cultivated a reputation as an ecentric - so i can get away with it
[20:10:29] Jack Sondergaard: I generally listen to fiction and read technical books
[20:10:28] Ina Centaur: especially bad when you end up laughing uncontrollably for several minutes ;-)
[20:09:58] Harman Mayo: been there, done taht
[20:08:26] Ina Centaur: *wa
[20:08:19] Ina Centaur: also, listening to a book while doing stuff... leads to weird situations... such as when you burst out laughing in the middle of a crowded place because what was read in your earphones is too unbearably funny
[20:07:47] Ina Centaur: yes. faster to read than listen
[20:07:37] Harman Mayo: can read it in a tenth of the time
[20:07:28] Harman Mayo: but it takes forever to listen to a book
[20:07:26] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:06:48] Harman Mayo: pop it in my player and do chores - of work out, or drive, etc
[20:06:00] Harman Mayo: i prefer audio - because i can multitask
[20:05:55] Jack Sondergaard: I'm getting War of the Worlds now
[20:05:30] Ina Centaur: hehe, i generally prefer reading, rather than listening. i have much lower listening comprehension than visual
[20:05:09] Harman Mayo: not sure an in depth discussion is needed
[20:05:00] Jack Sondergaard: they have an enormous amount of audio books of the classics there
[20:03:06] Ina Centaur: ok. checking out the itunes U. i don't think i'd have time to study the films in-depth to hold discussions though
[20:01:48] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:01:44] Jack Sondergaard: to find the free audiobooks on iTunes, go to the iTunes store, iTunes U, University of South Florida, College Of Education, then Lit2Go
[20:01:37] Harman Mayo: would be interesting to discuss them from a production standpoint - for about an hour - 2 tops
[20:00:37] Harman Mayo: kind of lke the utube video about SL
[19:59:46] Harman Mayo: most are short - and catch the attention of youth - termed viral because they gain poularity by word of mouth
[19:59:42] Jack Sondergaard: haven't seen that one yet
[19:59:33] Jack Sondergaard: no
[19:58:28] Harman Mayo: that's an example of a viral video
[19:58:07] Harman Mayo: ever see the Numa Numa Dance?
[19:58:06] Ina Centaur: yes, that's also another movie i've seen multiple times
[19:57:56] Ina Centaur: oh is Pi open source now?
[19:57:48] Jack Sondergaard: what are viral videos?
[19:57:26] Harman Mayo: could csreen viral videoes - but not sure i would want to
[19:56:42] Jack Sondergaard: and several others
[19:56:33] Jack Sondergaard: there's also some good movies on Google Video, like Pi
[19:56:15] Harman Mayo: saw a lot of deep space nine, though
[19:55:55] Harman Mayo: classic Trek i can say that about - grew up on it - but missed most of the voyager series
[19:55:49] Jack Sondergaard: I have be watching Jericho, it's a good one
[19:55:26] Ina Centaur: Heros might be another series... but i haven't been keeping up with that
[19:55:16] Harman Mayo: lol
[19:55:13] Jack Sondergaard: not yet, I have only listented to it once
[19:55:10] Ina Centaur: (multiple times, even)
[19:55:04] Ina Centaur: (the reason why i mentioned xfiles and voyager... they're two series i've seen almost every single episode of)
[19:54:48] Ina Centaur: hmm well, would you be prepared to discuss that?
[19:54:24] Ina Centaur: yes, and it should be for the advantage of the movie agencies
[19:54:18] Ina Centaur: Action!
[19:54:16] Jack Sondergaard: that's one iTunes U has for free
[19:53:52] Harman Mayo: since it's not being done for profit shouldn't have to pay royalties
[19:53:52] Jack Sondergaard: The Blithedale Romance by Hawthorne is very good
[19:53:41] Ina Centaur: would be awesome. the series/film companies would also get free advertising
[19:53:10] Harman Mayo: hmmm - might be possible to get permission to screen those
[19:52:13] Ina Centaur: meh, was thinking modern movies.. or tv series.. maybe star trek voyagers or xfiles
[19:51:51] Harman Mayo: almost anything from the Guttenburg project would work
[19:51:21] Ina Centaur: but, i think movie discussions might be interesting as well.
[19:50:38] Ina Centaur: (for nat H)
[19:50:32] Ina Centaur: scarlet letter is the one i'm most familiar with
[19:50:29] Harman Mayo: hmm - the last of the mohicans is a great book
[19:50:09] Jack Sondergaard: iTunes University has some free audiobooks of some novels by Nathaniel Hawthorne
[19:49:51] Harman Mayo: could do Covey's "the 7 habits" - but it isn't literature as most know it
[19:48:37] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I do like Heinlein
[19:48:08] Harman Mayo: if it's one i'm familiar with it would end up being Heinlein - but he's old news
[19:47:37] Jack Sondergaard: 1984 might be a good novel for a discussion
[19:47:24] Ina Centaur: and, it'd be cool if we could convince the movie agencies that this would be a source of publicity, and they'd let us show the movies inworld
[19:47:01] Ina Centaur: movie discussions could also work :-)
[19:45:37] Jack Sondergaard: personally, I'm not much of a fantasy novel fan, but I do like the movies
[19:45:06] Ina Centaur: ideally, you would host the discussion fora book you are familiar with
[19:44:55] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:44:35] Harman Mayo: just not sure i want to get hooked in alkl the hype
[19:44:17] Harman Mayo: depends - the new Potter would be lively
[19:43:30] Ina Centaur: what book do you suggest?
[19:43:24] Ina Centaur: lol yes
[19:43:24] Harman Mayo: seem to have scared off all but the die hard fans
[19:43:23] Jack Sondergaard: http://secondlife.com/events/event.php?id=803163
[19:42:33] Harman Mayo: think next month should schedule weekly discusssions
[19:41:17] Harman Mayo: howdy
[19:40:27] Ina Centaur: hi harman
[19:40:20] Ina Centaur: cool
[19:38:25] Jack Sondergaard: OK, I will go ahead and post the announcement for tomorrow
[19:37:28] Ina Centaur: since we're no longer on a chapter-schedule.. guess the desc would be something like: Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged Discussions continue
[19:36:25] Ina Centaur: meh.. i pretty much always just write the blurb from scratch
[19:35:16] Jack Sondergaard: OK, do you have a notecard with the description
[19:34:41] Ina Centaur: true. i've been too busy to post. would you like to post the notices?
[19:33:48] Jack Sondergaard: I haven't been seeing it on the Events list
[19:33:28] Ina Centaur: lol i'll put out the IM's just for continuity
[19:32:55] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[19:32:43] Ina Centaur: but i think those who have read the book all already know about this event
[19:32:21] Jack Sondergaard: oh, OK
[19:32:12] Ina Centaur: i guess i can put out a group IM's again..
[19:31:50] Ina Centaur: yup :-)
[19:31:44] Jack Sondergaard: am I the first tonight?
[19:31:22] Jack Sondergaard: hi
[19:31:10] Ina Centaur: hi jack :-)
[16:25:32] Catherine Moody: Hi Ina, we love you, that's what's up.
[16:24:42] Leslye Writer: Hello, Ina.
[16:24:11] Catherine Moody: Hello Ina, come join us!
[20:04:56] Jack Sondergaard: good night Ina, see you tomorrow
[20:04:43] Jack Sondergaard: I got it from the library
[20:04:36] Ina Centaur: np. nite jack!
[20:04:23] Jack Sondergaard: a friend is over so I think I will go watch Lord Of War with him
[20:03:02] Ina Centaur: nite!
[20:03:01] Jack Sondergaard: OK
[20:02:56] Kiera Zenovka: and I will see you all again
[20:02:49] Kiera Zenovka: ty again
[20:02:38] Jack Sondergaard: yes, a lot of content
[20:02:33] Kiera Zenovka: ok
[20:02:22] Ina Centaur: i think that's how it develops its world though... and how you can turn to any page and find inspiration and meaning in your own life
[20:02:15] Kiera Zenovka: indeed the russians write long books
[20:02:11] Jack Sondergaard: but not boring
[20:02:04] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:02:02] Kiera Zenovka: hehehehe
[20:01:59] Jack Sondergaard: so nearly as long as the Bible too
[20:01:59] Ina Centaur: 1000 pages ;-0
[20:01:57] Kiera Zenovka: omg
[20:01:56] Ina Centaur: and.. like most works by russian authors
[20:01:51] Kiera Zenovka: 52 hrs
[20:01:49] Ina Centaur: it's a good read
[20:01:47] Ina Centaur: hehe
[20:01:46] Kiera Zenovka: woowow
[20:01:42] Kiera Zenovka: ty again
[20:01:38] Kiera Zenovka: :)
[20:01:38] Jack Sondergaard: it's 52 hours long
[20:01:30] Kiera Zenovka: if it is second to the Bible...I must read it
[20:01:15] Kiera Zenovka: i will check
[20:01:07] Kiera Zenovka: ok
[20:00:59] Jack Sondergaard: that is the whole book
[20:00:53] Jack Sondergaard: they have volumes 2 and 3 for sale and each is about the same price as the whole book, so ignore then and just get the only that has no volume number
[20:00:16] Kiera Zenovka: why?
[20:00:01] Jack Sondergaard: they are confusing though
[19:59:52] Kiera Zenovka: good idea
[19:59:47] Kiera Zenovka: ok
[19:59:40] Jack Sondergaard: iTunes has it as un unabridged audio book if you like to listen
[19:59:28] Kiera Zenovka: so 8pm ?
[19:59:17] Kiera Zenovka: so I can keep up with the discussion about the actual boook
[19:58:57] Kiera Zenovka: I will be sure to get the book and read it :)
[19:58:44] Kiera Zenovka: ty for having me
[19:58:36] Jack Sondergaard: thanks for coming
[19:58:33] Kiera Zenovka: you will meet every night here at 8pm?
[19:58:27] Jack Sondergaard: great
[19:58:17] Kiera Zenovka: mmm...I have to go.....I really enjoyed this ..and would like to return...
[19:55:26] Kiera Zenovka: takes an ability not everyone has
[19:55:04] Kiera Zenovka: and creating an atmosphere for all to contribute
[19:54:44] Kiera Zenovka: a team that functions effectively to do a particular job
[19:54:25] Kiera Zenovka: and developing a team takes work
[19:54:08] Kiera Zenovka: right
[19:53:58] Jack Sondergaard: peer pressure can either be for or against working hard
[19:53:12] Kiera Zenovka: USA has a much different attiyude about work and about bosses
[19:53:12] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I think hard work is often very culturally influenced
[19:52:44] Kiera Zenovka: the family philosophy impacts the work place
[19:52:28] Kiera Zenovka: look at japan
[19:52:23] Kiera Zenovka: can be different
[19:52:21] Blundergroin Snoats: work environs of any ilk, public, private, pinko, capitlist . . .are micocosms of society in general . .. a random distribution of deadbeats, workoholics, polyannas, curmudgeons, Celine Dion fans . . ..
[19:52:18] Kiera Zenovka: the culture of work
[19:52:06] Kiera Zenovka: absolutely
[19:51:56] Jack Sondergaard: yes, leaders can teach attitude towards work
[19:51:43] Kiera Zenovka: if each person is valued for what they do
[19:51:32] Kiera Zenovka: and making a place for individuals to contribute what they can
[19:51:02] Kiera Zenovka: and direction
[19:50:57] Kiera Zenovka: alot has to do with leadership
[19:50:47] Kiera Zenovka: but most people want to make a contribution
[19:50:30] Kiera Zenovka: yep
[19:50:21] Jack Sondergaard: people who think they deserve to be paid without having to work for it
[19:49:52] Kiera Zenovka: and elitists
[19:49:47] Kiera Zenovka: right
[19:49:24] Jack Sondergaard: oh yes, business has lazy people too
[19:49:06] Kiera Zenovka: I have done both
[19:49:01] Kiera Zenovka: not that some aren't lazy...but you have that outside of gov anyway
[19:48:33] Kiera Zenovka: i work in Mental Health for NYS and many of the workers are dedicated .....really dedicated
[19:48:17] Blundergroin Snoats: i though you were saying I was stereotyping Rand fans by saying they were libertarian politically
[19:48:01] Jack Sondergaard: that's true, but the department I worked in was very wasteful
[19:47:54] Kiera Zenovka: sometimes you are trying to a job with limited resources
[19:47:35] Kiera Zenovka: depends
[19:47:32] Blundergroin Snoats: oh
[19:47:24] Kiera Zenovka: not all government workers are lazy or wasteful
[19:47:17] Blundergroin Snoats: yup
[19:47:08] Kiera Zenovka: I think that is a stereotype
[19:46:45] Blundergroin Snoats: this is why it's no coincidence that Rand fans are often libertarian in political ideology.
[19:46:13] Jack Sondergaard: and wasteful
[19:45:58] Jack Sondergaard: I used to work for the government, and I left, I couldn't stand being around so many lazy people
[19:45:53] Kiera Zenovka: ther is
[19:45:51] Kiera Zenovka: it sems tome there is corruption no matter what form of government
[19:45:34] Ina Centaur: yes
[19:45:06] Blundergroin Snoats: amen
[19:44:57] Jack Sondergaard: and the corruption that breeds
[19:44:44] Jack Sondergaard: Rand lived in the USSR when she was young and in her writings talks a lot about the failures of centralized government control over business
[19:42:58] Ina Centaur: :-)
[19:39:13] Kiera Zenovka: rt..
[19:39:01] Ina Centaur: well, you're not aimless that way.. your subconsciousness is busy working out the prob, or looking for a solution... and that's more or less how you'd see the opportunity in the right place when you arrive ;-)
[19:37:41] Jack Sondergaard: and she talks a lot about the value of money and things, and that we shouldn't feel guilty about spending on ourselves
[19:37:36] Kiera Zenovka: or can lead us ...not always
[19:37:30] Blundergroin Snoats: ricocheting from event to event
[19:37:19] Kiera Zenovka: it leads us to unexpected places that we then find something important
[19:36:55] Kiera Zenovka: but sometimes aimless wandering is part of the journey in life'
[19:36:30] Ina Centaur: lol yes, her characters are timeless
[19:36:17] Ina Centaur: i.e., some guy who just goes out and jogs aimlessly isn't doing work Rand would approve of. if he goes out and jogs because he wants to keep in shape or win some medal -- then that's working towards a goal, better than just aimless wandering
[19:36:01] Kiera Zenovka: i know a few myself
[19:35:53] Kiera Zenovka: hehehe
[19:35:48] Jack Sondergaard: I think parasites are timeless, at least the ones I know
[19:35:43] Ina Centaur: nah that's not her main ponit... that's one of her points. but then, she does not mean that work should be an end in itself, but a means to an end
[19:35:20] Kiera Zenovka: her point is our value is in our work?
[19:35:19] Ina Centaur: she does a great job of portraying the underdog
[19:35:12] Ina Centaur: i think the way her character relationships work... readers can associate with them no matter what era
[19:34:50] Jack Sondergaard: and our value is what we do in work and how we think
[19:34:41] Ina Centaur: well, that's not the timeless part per se, jack...
[19:34:22] Ina Centaur: and also the seemingly temporal problems in the novel are actually ongoing, even now
[19:34:20] Blundergroin Snoats: Alisa!
[19:34:16] Jack Sondergaard: she believes that no one should live as a parasite
[19:33:22] Kiera Zenovka: how?
[19:33:20] Kiera Zenovka: really
[19:33:20] Jack Sondergaard: yes, especially the part about obligations
[19:33:12] Kiera Zenovka: the theme is really universal
[19:33:11] Ina Centaur: (but please continue)
[19:33:01] Ina Centaur: yes, atlas has similar timeless components
[19:32:55] Kiera Zenovka: and the culture is diffferent then Western culture in many ways
[19:32:32] Kiera Zenovka: although it is in a different time
[19:32:21] Kiera Zenovka: i think and sooo relevant to human struggles in relationships and the oblifgations of family and socciety
[19:31:45] Kiera Zenovka: it's a classic
[19:31:31] Kiera Zenovka: caught by her station in life and torn between her duty and her desire for love
[19:30:55] Kiera Zenovka: and the character of Anna is such a sadone
[19:30:38] Kiera Zenovka: the sense that we make choices in our lives ans they always have consequences
[19:30:13] Kiera Zenovka: i love the pathos in it
[19:29:56] Ina Centaur: it's kinda a sad story. but i do like its opening line. every happy family is the same; every unhappy family is different in its own way... why do you love it?
[19:29:23] Kiera Zenovka: i read it as a kid and have reread it soo many times and still love it
[19:28:55] Kiera Zenovka: i think the best novel i have ever read was Anna Karenina
[19:28:29] Kiera Zenovka: wow
[19:28:27] Kiera Zenovka: really
[19:28:21] Jack Sondergaard: it's the best novel I have ever read
[19:26:47] Kiera Zenovka: you think it is really worth reading then?
[19:26:46] Ina Centaur: yes; rand pretty much always makes sense.
[19:26:06] Kiera Zenovka: ok
[19:25:57] Jack Sondergaard: but much more readable than most philosophers
[19:25:46] Kiera Zenovka: in the love story?
[19:25:35] Jack Sondergaard: yes, a lot of philosophy
[19:25:29] Kiera Zenovka: a love story?
[19:25:18] Ina Centaur: a.s. is a love story with more frills than you'd expect
[19:25:13] Jack Sondergaard: I've had over 40 jobs
[19:25:03] Jack Sondergaard: I'm not very stuck in a job
[19:25:01] Kiera Zenovka: so Atlas Shrugged is philosophical then?
[19:24:22] Kiera Zenovka: etc
[19:24:20] Kiera Zenovka: or are able to practice your job in PRivate practice ie lawyers, doctors
[19:23:42] Kiera Zenovka: unless you are fortunate to be independently wealthy or have a job that is sooo needed that they want you at any age
[19:23:09] Ina Centaur: whether we like it or not..
[19:23:00] Ina Centaur: but, unfortunately, society is structured such that we are stuck in our current jobs
[19:22:58] Kiera Zenovka: withthat
[19:22:54] Kiera Zenovka: i agree
[19:22:38] Ina Centaur: lol, yes..
[19:22:37] Kiera Zenovka: i agree with that
[19:22:29] Jack Sondergaard: and retirement from work as the main goal in life is not a good one
[19:22:20] Kiera Zenovka: of course
[19:21:59] Jack Sondergaard: made me see that work, any value producing work, is more than just a way of financing what I want to do away from work
[19:21:40] Kiera Zenovka: I remember reading FOuntainhead a long time ago ...and I had a difficult time geeting int it
[19:21:07] Kiera Zenovka: really
[19:21:00] Ina Centaur: well, like the bible, you can basically turn to any page and get inspiration or "spiritual guidance"
[19:20:51] Kiera Zenovka: towards work? in what way?
[19:20:34] Jack Sondergaard: it has changed my attitude towards work
[19:20:32] Kiera Zenovka: history and such
[19:20:26] Kiera Zenovka: stories you mean
[19:20:02] Ina Centaur: it kind of reads like the bible :-)
[19:19:49] Kiera Zenovka: what makes it so influential?
[19:19:25] Ina Centaur: In a 1991 survey by the Library of Congress and The Book of the Month Club, Atlas Shrugged was named as one of the most influential books that Americans have ever read, second only to the Bible (Ybarra, 1998).
[19:19:16] Ina Centaur: http://www3.isrl.uiuc.edu/~unsworth/courses/bestsellers/search.cgi?title=Atlas Shrugged
[19:18:56] Jack Sondergaard: the speeches are the best part of the book, but I think that's what got left out of the abridged recordings
[19:17:59] Kiera Zenovka: really I did not know that
[19:17:56] Ina Centaur: *of all times
[19:17:46] Ina Centaur: atlas shrugged is supposedly #2 bestselling novel, second only to the bible
[19:17:30] Kiera Zenovka: ty
[19:17:29] Jack Sondergaard: I already finished listening to it and am going through the second time
[19:17:22] Ina Centaur: jack's finished the book.. and i'm skipping ahead to Galt's Speech.. today is supposed to be chapter 1, part 3
[19:16:57] Jack Sondergaard: do you know if anyone else has written any comparible novels?
[19:16:43] Kiera Zenovka: so what chappter are you on now ...because i will have to catch up if i join you ?
[19:15:33] Jack Sondergaard: I might get the audiobook of Fountainhead tomorrow
[19:14:47] Ina Centaur: she either started planning for it during Fountainhead or right after
[19:14:36] Ina Centaur: not sure how long it took her to write..
[19:14:29] Ina Centaur: because she refused to edit Galt's speech
[19:14:22] Ina Centaur: i think it took 10 years for her to get it published
[19:14:17] Kiera Zenovka: ok
[19:14:13] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[19:14:13] Ina Centaur: yes, open discussion
[19:14:05] Kiera Zenovka: so is this discussion iopen now?\\
[19:12:03] Jack Sondergaard: how long did it take Rand to write this book
[19:08:49] Ina Centaur: but, typically, anyone can bring up their own topics
[19:08:36] Kiera Zenovka: ok
[19:08:31] Ina Centaur: somewhat.
[19:08:10] Kiera Zenovka: so you lead the discussions Ina?
[19:07:47] Kiera Zenovka: hehehe
[19:07:35] Ina Centaur: a couple of people, kiera. we started with about a dozen... but i used to be draconian about keeping with the chapter-a-day thing... so i guessed i scared some people off ;-P
[19:06:35] Jack Sondergaard: I was also an irrational mystic for a while, but gave that up
[19:06:21] Kiera Zenovka: how many people usually attend the discussions
[19:05:13] Kiera Zenovka: ty
[19:05:10] Kiera Zenovka: rt
[19:05:04] Jack Sondergaard: SL time, yes, that's also Pacific time
[19:04:46] Kiera Zenovka: ?
[19:04:42] Kiera Zenovka: I guess
[19:04:40] Jack Sondergaard: every night this month
[19:04:39] Kiera Zenovka: 8 PDT
[19:04:30] Kiera Zenovka: what time are the discussions generally held?
[19:04:30] Jack Sondergaard: we start at 8, go till 11
[19:04:11] Kiera Zenovka: ;)
[19:04:04] Jack Sondergaard: I guess I need to read all her books
[19:03:58] Kiera Zenovka: what time?
[19:03:53] Kiera Zenovka: ooh
[19:03:47] Ina Centaur: (kera, for August, we are holding daily discussions of Atlas Shrugged)
[19:03:36] Ina Centaur: it's not religion, per se, she hates.. just some of the stuff they promote -- such as original sin
[19:03:22] Kiera Zenovka: if you don't mind my asking
[19:03:18] Ina Centaur: yesterday, jack mentioned something about rand hating religion
[19:03:10] Kiera Zenovka: discussion of what ?
[19:03:04] Jack Sondergaard: same here
[19:02:56] Ina Centaur: we are suposed to be discussing part 3, chapter 1 today... but i guess we're all off schedule, so it's just general atlas shrugged discussions
[19:02:27] Ina Centaur: tired, but still going :-)
[19:01:25] Jack Sondergaard: good
[19:01:07] Kiera Zenovka: how is everyone tonite
[19:00:56] Jack Sondergaard: hi Kiera
[19:00:46] Ina Centaur: (hi kiera)
[19:00:31] Ina Centaur: i.e., assuming man is evil before he can act.
[19:00:24] Ina Centaur: if you reread galt's speech... you'd find that orthodox religion is condemned because of supposing such things as original sin
[19:00:07] Ina Centaur: btw, Rand does not hate the religions per se...
[18:59:55] Jack Sondergaard: hi Ina
[18:59:44] Ina Centaur: hi jack
[22:44:25] Sling Radius: Nice knowing you. Ina. ;)
[22:44:06] Sling Radius: Later.
[22:43:59] Ina Centaur: g'nite :-)
[22:43:55] Ina Centaur: right now i have to TP into another sim for admin work...
[22:43:47] Ina Centaur: once you get to it ;-)
[22:43:42] Ina Centaur: hehe. well, i'm sure you will find it interesting, if not enjoyable
[22:41:06] Sling Radius: I'll find the book sooner or later.
[22:40:15] Sling Radius: Nah. I know myself. If I start in one of those things, I'm shure that I need to end it.
[22:39:05] Ina Centaur: amazon has the first chapter up i believe
[22:38:59] Ina Centaur: np..
[22:36:29] Sling Radius: hehehehe Ok. Sorry to keep poking you.
[22:36:03] Ina Centaur: hum... you should read it for yourself, really..
[22:35:56] Ina Centaur: that's not the main topic...
[22:35:42] Sling Radius: Aaaaah. Then most readers fail to understand the main topic? Individuality?
[22:33:26] Sling Radius: Ah, got'cha.
[22:33:04] Ina Centaur: but it is mentioned, although only briefly
[22:32:57] Ina Centaur: religion is not a major theme
[22:32:35] Sling Radius: *does
[22:32:30] Sling Radius: Tell me, doe it talks about religion? You wore discusting it before, dunno uf you wore on the borders of the book or talking about itself.
[22:30:16] Sling Radius: Ah, yes.
[22:29:12] Ina Centaur: people wouold come on it thinking they *knew* the absolute truth about it... the novel basically is strong enough so that one believes in one's own reading of it
[22:29:02] Sling Radius: There must hexist tons with variatly thoughts. :)
[22:28:51] Ina Centaur: the ayn rand /A.S. entries on W used to be wiped out by bigoted griefers almost every other day
[22:28:31] Ina Centaur: like in this case.. it's not just minor differences... the differnet reading could be holistic even
[22:28:16] Ina Centaur: and the standard reading is only what you grow into after re-reading and re-reading the official docs on it
[22:28:13] Sling Radius: Yeah.
[22:27:59] Ina Centaur: it's rather... everyone has a different reading
[22:27:53] Ina Centaur: it's not just the tiny details and stuff
[22:27:48] Ina Centaur: oh btw.. with A.S. especially
[22:27:38] Ina Centaur: heh
[22:27:37] Ina Centaur: i am just absent minded literally
[22:27:29] Sling Radius: :D
[22:27:26] Sling Radius: I may Yapping around, hum?
[22:27:25] Ina Centaur: hehe
[22:26:55] Sling Radius: Like any, I ment as any do contribute to one's mind, but there's spme readings that really boost one.
[22:25:39] Sling Radius: Yesh, like any. There's always fascinating when one finds somthing to feed to the mind that's really good stuff.
[22:22:19] Ina Centaur: lol, with this book, you really have to read the book itself before forming an opinion
[22:21:20] Sling Radius: I do C now and then. In a way too amature way. When I get the feeling to come back, I have to get those 'teeth' clean out of the rust. :)
[22:18:06] Sling Radius: Well, sometimes, you have to keep waking at it to be able to be fluent again.
[22:17:23] Sling Radius: "The main conflict of the book occurs as the "individuals of the mind" go on strike, refusing to contribute their inventions, art, business leadership, scientific research, or new ideas of any kind to the rest of the world." Aaaaah. I see how can this be conveied into several thrings of thoughts.
[22:17:06] Ina Centaur: lol
[22:17:05] Ina Centaur: unnecessarily time consuming
[22:11:14] Sling Radius: *somehow
[22:11:03] Sling Radius: Programming somewhat accumulates a bunch.
[22:10:27] Sling Radius: Ah, the only activities that doesn't seem to grow rusty are walking and riding a bike. :)
[22:09:00] Ina Centaur: not sure why. lol; i'm too rusty. this should not have taken more than 30 secs but is taking like hours
[22:08:46] Ina Centaur: variables are not feeding in right
[22:08:42] Ina Centaur: debugging
[22:05:11] Sling Radius: ...Or I'm missing the point?
[22:00:15] Sling Radius: Ah, you're into flash, hum?
[21:59:47] Ina Centaur: i'm trying to set up some flash variables
[21:59:35] Sling Radius: So, you're off too, Ina?
[21:59:16] Jack Sondergaard: poof
[21:59:14] Jack Sondergaard: later
[21:59:08] Sling Radius: Later.
[21:58:59] Jack Sondergaard: yes it was, good night
[21:58:33] Sling Radius: heh. It would be better if I would have read at least the article first.
[21:58:30] Ina Centaur: ty for the discussion. was fun :-)
[21:58:26] Ina Centaur: yes, gnite you two
[21:57:34] Jack Sondergaard: "if I die before I wake", haha
[21:57:16] Jack Sondergaard: good discussion
[21:56:53] Sling Radius: Yup.
[21:56:38] Jack Sondergaard: well, I better get some sleep, got to go earn some value in a few hours
[21:54:58] Sling Radius: HAHA! So true, man.
[21:54:30] Jack Sondergaard: I would add to that, in our current society, those who say, I wish I could win a million dollars in the lottery, rather than saying, I will try to earn a million dollars by providing that much value in the world
[21:53:33] Sling Radius: And I wasn't defending a goverment type, either, I just thought that there was something in the conversation that needed to be cleared up. ;)
[21:52:25] Sling Radius: Got'cha.
[21:51:54] Jack Sondergaard: what Rand opposes in this book is moochers and loafers, those who think they are entitled to the money and property of others without earning it, without exchanging something of the same value
[21:50:09] Sling Radius: *in human empathy.
[21:49:58] Sling Radius: AH! didn't read it. But sharing is intrischid in epathy.
[21:49:51] Jack Sondergaard: bartering can only work in a very limited economy, that's why we have money, as an exchange medium for more complex trading
[21:48:27] Sling Radius: That's just a poor example.
[21:48:18] Sling Radius: Yes, but I have oranges and I want grain....wish it's exactly that you have, and you want oranges.
[21:47:54] Jack Sondergaard: share can mean you give without receiving anything in return
[21:47:14] Jack Sondergaard: exchange implies you are getting equal value for value in a trade
[21:46:30] Sling Radius: Not commuting as in going from A to B.
[21:46:11] Sling Radius: Nope. You're getting it wrong, Ina. :) If you're able to exchange, share, etc, with somebody, you're commuting, no?
[21:46:08] Jack Sondergaard: I need a new video iPod, give me one, now!!!
[21:45:22] Jack Sondergaard: the problem is that our collective "needs" exceeds our collective output
[21:44:13] Jack Sondergaard: OK, I think you are referring to what is now more commonly called socialism
[21:44:01] Ina Centaur: and then implmenete communism.. which is just corrupt nepotism
[21:43:53] Ina Centaur: yes, there is ideal communism where we can know for sure how to gauge "need" and "want" justly
[21:43:43] Sling Radius: All equal. But there's costs on all being equals.
[21:43:07] Sling Radius: Communism isn't just a goverment blueprint. It's an idea. That's why it's still called an utopia. Sharing is the principle.
[21:42:37] Jack Sondergaard: if that is communism, then what is free communism?
[21:40:47] Jack Sondergaard: but isn't communism (not as defined by Marx, but as practiced in the world) the combination of central control by government and outlawing of religious freedom?
[21:40:03] Sling Radius: So, she sets the principle of curruption aside, right?
[21:38:40] Sling Radius: Yeah, that's it. Thanks. ;)
[21:38:39] Jack Sondergaard: Rand does have some rules, primarily that you will not sacrifice your interests to others or ask others to sacrifice their interests for you
[21:38:20] Sling Radius: Therefore free communism (or any other isms) can fit in that goverment tentacles free rules, understend where I'm getting at?
[21:37:16] Jack Sondergaard: be capitalistic?
[21:37:04] Ina Centaur: ?
[21:36:42] Sling Radius: Capitilize? I think that's it.
[21:36:00] Sling Radius: But what I was after was that you don't have to be compleatly empty of rules or ethics to capetilize(?).
[21:35:01] Ina Centaur: hmm
[21:34:00] Sling Radius: Because of stores, that is.
[21:33:27] Sling Radius: There was a couple of production strings untill it reached the consumer. Of course, that was the hardest part.
[21:33:13] Jack Sondergaard: I hadn't heard of that before
[21:32:25] Sling Radius: Think of France's 68 hot summer, for example. Many factories wore producing by themselfs without office heads or management as we today know it and still not wanting the goverment connection.
[21:30:57] Jack Sondergaard: I don't think anyone foresaw what we now have in China, but I think there will yet be vast changes there in the years to come
[21:29:41] Sling Radius: Nah.
[21:29:34] Sling Radius: Ok: "...Or should I have said: Well, free communism also." should be the right phrase.
[21:29:12] Jack Sondergaard: oh, do you mean like the form of capitalism practiced by China today?
[21:28:44] Ina Centaur: ?
[21:28:29] Sling Radius: ....Or should I have said: Well, free communism also?
[21:27:37] Sling Radius: Well, even free communism.
[21:26:52] Jack Sondergaard: it doesn't use the word capitalism that I can remember, but defends the principles of businesses producing free of government domination
[21:26:02] Sling Radius: Yeah, didn't know that one.
[21:25:42] Ina Centaur: lol interesting
[21:25:20] Jack Sondergaard: they printed so much paper money, it was cheaper to paper your walls with money than wallpaper
[21:25:15] Sling Radius: *capitalism
[21:25:04] Sling Radius: But you pulled capitalins two times since I'm here. Does the book focous on it that much?
[21:24:35] Jack Sondergaard: the German government before Hitler
[21:24:15] Ina Centaur: weimar?
[21:23:27] Jack Sondergaard: fortunately, we have some controls on that, or we would be like the Weimar Republic
[21:23:22] Ina Centaur: not to mention, the government "earns" its money by looting people like Rearden
[21:23:02] Ina Centaur: yes
[21:22:42] Jack Sondergaard: she does oppose paper money, I think because it can be devalued by the government printing as much of it as it wants
[21:21:39] Sling Radius: *centers
[21:21:15] Sling Radius: But does the book centrals itself in the monetary system?
[21:19:47] Jack Sondergaard: there are many speeches in the book that are breath-taking
[21:18:12] Jack Sondergaard: and about the value of money and what money can buy as the products of our labor an thought
[21:17:56] Ina Centaur: *by Rand
[21:17:54] Ina Centaur: hehe. capitalism is actually the title of an entire other book filled with essays on that
[21:17:30] Jack Sondergaard: I think it's the best defence of capitalism I've read
[21:16:36] Sling Radius: I'll try it, likely.
[21:16:03] Jack Sondergaard: I should complete it again by the end of the month
[21:16:03] Sling Radius: You'll get hooked! ;)
[21:16:03] Ina Centaur: it's a good read, sling
[21:15:44] Jack Sondergaard: I just started listening to it for the second time
[21:15:21] Sling Radius: Besides, don't know the work.
[21:15:03] Ina Centaur: *series, rather
[21:15:02] Sling Radius: Nah. No account.
[21:15:01] Jack Sondergaard: I got a Palm TX a few days ago, I'll put this article on it, plus anything else I can find on the subject
[21:14:54] Ina Centaur: btw there is also a wikibook series especailly on Atlas Shrugged.
[21:14:51] Sling Radius: We're talkinga bout Wikipedia's entry, right?
[21:14:43] Ina Centaur: feel free to edit it, sling
[21:13:15] Sling Radius: In the first paragraph, the article should describe the piece itself, not what the authour has been or had done.
[21:12:55] Jack Sondergaard: but that's the goal of the Xanadu project
[21:12:02] Jack Sondergaard: personally, I don't think their is a neutral point of view on all topics, I think all points of view should be presented
[21:11:38] Ina Centaur: and there are also several bots that check for drastic edits, iirc
[21:11:33] Sling Radius: One thing about the article, Ina.
[21:11:24] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[21:11:19] Ina Centaur: yeah, but there are lots of librarian-types with no lives who patrol it constantly.
[21:11:05] Sling Radius: Yeah, that's a drag.
[21:10:46] Ina Centaur: one of the issues.. since anyone can edit, griefers often come in and wipe the whole thing out with their own POV
[21:10:27] Sling Radius: For example. A quantum computer could math simultaniusly. That could start to pull things up. but even if it would get the big picture, it wouldn't be real. Just some calculations.
[21:10:27] Ina Centaur: yes, W is basically groupthink... or "crowdsourcing"
[21:10:16] Ina Centaur: *also
[21:10:13] Jack Sondergaard: OK, by the "collective mind" ;)
[21:09:38] Ina Centaur: not just mine. it's written by the hundred others who edited it
[21:09:16] Jack Sondergaard: I'm reading your wikipedia article, it's very good
[21:06:39] Sling Radius: That's what I was trying to say. Real proff. Not just that the math adds.
[21:06:08] Sling Radius: Yes.
[21:05:52] Jack Sondergaard: but to get the full picture, we would have to know all the particle interactions in the whole Universe while it is all changing
[21:05:33] Sling Radius: But in the other hand, I don't think it would be possible, because you would only be playing with hipotheses.
[21:04:45] Sling Radius: So, yes, that should do it. And you would get a full picture.
[21:04:07] Sling Radius: Well, the way I see it, if you get quantum phisics right, you can 'predict' all the strings.
[21:02:47] Jack Sondergaard: even if we solve the micro-structure of the Universe, there are still all the systems, the relationships, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, that is systematic thinking
[21:02:32] Ina Centaur: yes
[21:01:07] Jack Sondergaard: there is a huge difference between saying man knows nothing and man knows something, we know something and must continue to learn all our lives
[21:00:54] Sling Radius: But by definition, that should do it, no?
[21:00:34] Sling Radius: Yes, ok. But we'll still quest for knowledge if even if we unvail quantum, right?
[20:59:57] Ina Centaur: * from atlas
[20:59:51] Ina Centaur: there are the looter intellectuals who claim that man is nothing, knows nothing, thus should suffer helplessly and die
[20:59:38] Ina Centaur: but we must not let the unsolved problems pull us down
[20:59:31] Ina Centaur: yes..
[20:58:19] Jack Sondergaard: there is certain knowledge about many things, A is A, but on the other hand, we must confess that there are many things we don't yet know, many unsolved problems still in the world for us to find answers to
[20:57:23] Sling Radius: But it's a kind of raunch(?) theasis).
[20:56:52] Sling Radius: And that's all.
[20:56:45] Sling Radius: Unless you get back and say; Ok, the universe it's infinit.
[20:56:15] Ina Centaur: lol\
[20:55:50] Sling Radius: For more you know, it brings more questions, and so on.
[20:55:11] Sling Radius: Yes.
[20:55:00] Sling Radius: Man, I'm typing horribly wrong today!
[20:54:47] Ina Centaur: our knowledge is limited, but knowledge itself unlimited
[20:54:42] Jack Sondergaard: we will be continuing to learn as long as life continues
[20:54:35] Sling Radius: ...Or unfinit.
[20:53:52] Sling Radius: That's the thing. Knowledge is unlimited.
[20:52:41] Jack Sondergaard: we know a lot, but there is still more that we don't know than what we know
[20:52:33] Sling Radius: *few, I ment
[20:51:54] Sling Radius: There's too many certainties in this world.
[20:51:42] Ina Centaur: it's wishful thinking for believing that we are more than what we know to be
[20:51:35] Sling Radius: Nope. Very unprobable.
[20:50:55] Jack Sondergaard: is existance after death wishful thinking because you know it is impossible?
[20:49:38] Sling Radius: Yup.
[20:49:14] Sling Radius: ...The 'living' ones, thatis.
[20:49:07] Ina Centaur: no one wants to know that their existence is fleeting.. you live and then you die.
[20:48:56] Ina Centaur: yes. moreover, i think existence after death is wishful thinking
[20:48:36] Sling Radius: But that would only be sustainable for yourself, right?...Not for others.
[20:47:19] Jack Sondergaard: for absolute proof, I would need to die, then if there is no existance beyond death, I will never know, but if there is, I will
[20:47:11] Sling Radius: We're might too early to get 'phisical' proff. Scientificly speaking, of course.
[20:45:52] Ina Centaur: but how can you prove that consciousness exists apart from the human body?
[20:45:38] Ina Centaur: hmm
[20:44:46] Jack Sondergaard: but if consciousness can exist apart from the physical human body, then that could be used as part of the definition of spiritual
[20:43:21] Jack Sondergaard: I'm not saying Rand believed that last part, though
[20:42:56] Jack Sondergaard: even Rand believed in consiousness, and most people in the world believe that consiousness persists after death
[20:42:23] Sling Radius: Woot! Hamlet's next door! :D
[20:41:54] Ina Centaur: this is a public facility
[20:41:45] Ina Centaur: you are a free avatar, yes ;-)
[20:41:41] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:41:31] Sling Radius: Well, some people don't like when other go freely throught their acomodations.
[20:40:42] Jack Sondergaard: sure, you are a free avatar
[20:40:11] Sling Radius: Can I check around?
[20:38:30] Ina Centaur: ?
[20:37:48] Jack Sondergaard: theists don't equate spiritual with imaginary
[20:36:45] Ina Centaur: spirtiual entity beyond all
[20:36:25] Jack Sondergaard: theists don't define God as an imaginary entity
[20:35:53] Ina Centaur: but, other than that -- why?
[20:35:49] Ina Centaur: i mean.. sure, i guess it's emotional comfort to be able to fall back against this entityt
[20:35:39] Jack Sondergaard: if at any point in the past absolutely nothing existed, than even now and forever, nothing could exist
[20:35:35] Ina Centaur: why allow an imaginary entity to be greater than all that's possible?
[20:35:23] Ina Centaur: why choose god?
[20:35:22] Sling Radius: But wasn't that exacly the mainstream thought of a couple hundred years ago?
[20:34:10] Jack Sondergaard: you either have to say that there is an eternally existing god or an eternally existing Universe, take your pick, because something can't originate from absolute nothing
[20:32:44] Sling Radius: hehee
[20:32:29] Ina Centaur: where did god come from?
[20:32:17] Ina Centaur: i assume you're religious. so i shall question you and you'll tell me when you're annoyed ;-)
[20:32:01] Ina Centaur: well, ok, so let's go of a slight tangent then..
[20:31:44] Jack Sondergaard: some do, yes, but not all
[20:31:31] Ina Centaur: (so do scientists, even atheist scientists btw)
[20:31:22] Ina Centaur: but, religious people often get knotty when you start asking them to question or explain for the unanswered in their beliefs
[20:31:06] Jack Sondergaard: there are many common objectives, such as trading between producers who exchange value for value
[20:31:06] Sling Radius: There's tons of examples, yeah.
[20:31:05] Ina Centaur: yes, of course
[20:29:27] Jack Sondergaard: I do believe that objectivists and religious people can live together in a society, practicing capitalism, and allow for everyone to choose to differ on many points
[20:27:16] Sling Radius: Ah, got'cha. Thanks.
[20:26:59] Jack Sondergaard: I'm not saying Objectivism and any religion agree on every point, there are many ways they disagree, only that Rand's view of religion was distorted
[20:26:58] Ina Centaur: hehe
[20:26:57] Ina Centaur: press alt - zoom
[20:26:25] Sling Radius: Can't I move the camera when I'm sitting?
[20:25:39] Ina Centaur: the other thing with religion is that they teach sacrifice
[20:25:26] Ina Centaur: (etc)
[20:25:20] Jack Sondergaard: the vast majority of theists, which happen to be most people in the world, oppose imposing religion by force
[20:25:19] Ina Centaur: because.. Jesus told us to
[20:25:12] Ina Centaur: or... why give away your best toy to the poor kid
[20:24:01] Jack Sondergaard: but very few people, other than a few thousand radicals, are like that today
[20:23:38] Sling Radius: :\
[20:23:33] Sling Radius: Sorry my english. :1
[20:23:33] Ina Centaur: o..O
[20:23:32] Ina Centaur: and also... even nowadays, when the murderer is asked with "why did you kill your brother" ... he might come up with some zealous answer, "because god told me to"
[20:23:24] Sling Radius: Well, there's some religiost scientists as there are some priests that investigates.
[20:22:58] Ina Centaur: ie. it used to be if you didn't believe in god you'd be killed by crusaders, etc
[20:22:48] Ina Centaur: well, i think it's more to do with how religion is often used to destroy thought
[20:22:28] Ina Centaur: yes, Rand migt say... it doesn't make sense to assume that
[20:22:17] Jack Sondergaard: they say that anyone who believes in God can't be a scientist, because science is "naturalistic", the Universe having no first cause
[20:21:51] Sling Radius: Yeah, omnipotent conscious being, right?
[20:21:17] Marie Lawson: ((mew mew))
[20:21:10] Ina Centaur: (btw hi kitty d'ina ^^)
[20:21:06] Ina Centaur: well, god is some sort of all powerful celestial conscious entity?
[20:20:15] Sling Radius: That's the only defenition of God, no?
[20:20:00] Jack Sondergaard: that depends on how you define science, which most modern scientists say is begins by assuming atheism as a beginning point
[20:19:38] Sling Radius: So, God wouldn't be councious?
[20:18:34] Ina Centaur: it's less personal, i guess... does not presuppose the existence of some celestial consciousness
[20:18:11] Ina Centaur: big bang.
[20:17:57] Ina Centaur: so, science also has an endpoint there...
[20:17:44] Ina Centaur: i.e... 'where did the universe come from?' ... the will and goodness of god
[20:17:31] Ina Centaur: if you want to question it deeply enough, you'd always come to "the barrier of god"
[20:17:16] Ina Centaur: well, the thing with religion is this...
[20:15:54] Marie Lawson: ((ok I fail))
[20:15:52] Jack Sondergaard: no, I'm still puzzled by Rand always equating religion with anti-reason, it's true that much of it is, but not all of it
[20:13:55] Ina Centaur: so, jack, did we solve your confusion on atheism being necessarily good?
[20:13:13] Ina Centaur: yes, but wiki is collaborative editing. so i imagine that my original draft has been changed and revised multiple times
[20:12:41] Jack Sondergaard: wow, I didn't know that, I will have to read it
[20:12:39] Sling Radius: Nice.
[20:12:24] Ina Centaur: the wikibooks versions as well
[20:12:13] Ina Centaur: heh. i practically wrote the entire article... well sans all the revisions that must have been made recently
[20:12:00] Jack Sondergaard: I listened to the audio book
[20:11:41] Sling Radius: Nah. I've got the Wikipedia link the other day, but never got to read it properly.
[20:10:59] Ina Centaur: sling, do you have anything you'd like to discuss about Atlas SHrugged?
[20:10:12] Ina Centaur: hehe
[20:09:49] Marie Lawson: xD
[20:09:46] Marie Lawson: Oh wait wrong Jack
[20:09:26] Sling Radius: Hi Marie, hi Ina. ;)
[20:09:23] Marie Lawson: Jack, how many times have I told you not to whip your balls out in public *shakes her head*
[20:09:19] Jack Sondergaard: it's normal for people to come and go
[20:09:19] Ina Centaur: hi :-)
[20:09:04] Jack Sondergaard: no problem, we are discussing Atlas Shrugged
[20:08:47] Sling Radius: *burst
[20:08:33] Sling Radius: Sorry to buest in. Jack gave me a landmark earlier.
[20:08:27] Marie Lawson: err I mean Hi o.o
[20:08:13] Marie Lawson: Beunos Dias
[20:08:02] Jack Sondergaard: hi Sling
[20:07:57] Ina Centaur: (hi sling)
[20:07:46] Sling Radius: Hello.
[20:07:19] Marie Lawson: :P
[20:07:10] Ina Centaur: hehe
[20:06:46] Jack Sondergaard: yes, that you could cook the goose and still get golden eggs
[20:06:36] Ina Centaur: or ... without actually obtaining it in reality
[20:06:28] Ina Centaur: i.e., assuming that they could just *wish* things into existence w/o doing the work
[20:06:17] Ina Centaur: or, sort of... denying cause
[20:06:13] Ina Centaur: again, they were reversing cause and effect
[20:06:04] Ina Centaur: yes
[20:05:13] Jack Sondergaard: and build without resources
[20:04:33] Jack Sondergaard: things like businesses could produce without profit
[20:03:56] Jack Sondergaard: they were saying many absurdities like that
[20:02:37] Jack Sondergaard: Galt who were saying it
[20:02:26] Jack Sondergaard: I know, it was the enemies of
[20:02:24] Ina Centaur: arbiter
[20:02:20] Ina Centaur: reality is the ultimate arbitrator
[20:02:13] Ina Centaur: the force isn't applied by anyone, really... just reality
[20:02:07] Ina Centaur: if they don't choose it, they will perish
[20:02:01] Ina Centaur: the decision to be free is to be made by the individual
[20:01:53] Ina Centaur: i don't think it says that
[20:00:57] Jack Sondergaard: in many places, maybe not exactly those words every time
[19:59:40] Ina Centaur: where does it say that? in what context?
[19:59:31] Jack Sondergaard: we must force people to be free, that's one of my favorite lines in the book
[19:55:37] Ina Centaur: the candle experiment
[19:55:33] Ina Centaur: i wonder if that's universal
[19:55:29] Ina Centaur: lol. yes i remember that too
[19:54:18] Jack Sondergaard: I wish I had kept that list
[19:53:54] Jack Sondergaard: first day in my class, we each looked at a burning candle and wrote 100 observations about it
[19:52:22] Marie Lawson: you shoulda seen it the flame almost hit the ceiling
[19:51:46] Ina Centaur: it's nontrivial, even when reduced to just chemicals
[19:51:46] Marie Lawson: This one time in science class some idiot had a bottle cap with some stuff in it and he lit it and there was this big flame and the teacher was writing on the board
[19:51:40] Ina Centaur: not to mention synthesizing them first...
[19:51:32] Ina Centaur: well, there's also the part about putting all the chemicals together
[19:50:54] Ina Centaur: sure... but i'd think most high school teachers are too flip for that
[19:50:52] Jack Sondergaard: no, we were no where near advanced enough to figure that out
[19:50:43] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:49:38] Jack Sondergaard: he was a reductionist
[19:49:29] Ina Centaur: probably as some extra credi challenge for you to figure out the moles of each chemical or something
[19:49:12] Ina Centaur: well, you know the context from which your teacher said that right?
[19:49:00] Ina Centaur: i.e., chemicals and all that
[19:48:52] Ina Centaur: when the mind dies... then there's just the body left, and it is just its physical component
[19:48:48] Jack Sondergaard: when I was in high school, my chemistry teacher said we were all just a bunch of chemicals worth $1.38
[19:48:33] Ina Centaur: do you remembe the tragedy of the wet nurse?
[19:47:51] Jack Sondergaard: with no consiousness
[19:47:38] Jack Sondergaard: reductionism says we are just a bag of chemicals
[19:47:12] Jack Sondergaard: hi Midian
[19:47:07] Ina Centaur: reductionism?
[19:46:43] Jack Sondergaard: and rejected materialistic reductionism
[19:46:33] Ina Centaur: "a mind without a body is a ghost.."
[19:46:27] Ina Centaur: jack, basically, Rand does not believe the body can exist w/o the mind, or the other way around
[19:46:18] Marie Lawson: *mews*
[19:46:05] Ina Centaur: (hi marie)
[19:45:47] Jack Sondergaard: yes, she did, in this book, champion both consciousness and body
[19:45:08] Jack Sondergaard: I'm thinking of her other writings about religion
[19:44:21] Ina Centaur: *well, one of the atheists
[19:44:11] Ina Centaur: the muscles were essentially the atheists
[19:43:59] Ina Centaur: recall that she had the mystics vs the muscles, as the looters of history
[19:43:49] Ina Centaur: even though non-reason is associated with spirituality.. she does not necessarily associate reason with atheism
[19:43:36] Ina Centaur: hehe so back to your puzzlement over Rand..
[19:42:49] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I have often heard of scientists who simply ignore any facts that don't fit into their pet theory
[19:42:33] Ina Centaur: but, in rare cases, you have someone who has a totally revolutionary theory
[19:42:21] Ina Centaur: but, in general, those who deviate from the main view are often those who don't understand it
[19:40:53] Ina Centaur: yes, even the nerds have their outcasts
[19:40:43] Ina Centaur: hmm
[19:39:40] Jack Sondergaard: I know of someone who wrote a great disertation who was afraid to publish it because it was different from mainstream thinking on the subject, even though it was extremely good
[19:38:44] Ina Centaur: and see it otherwise
[19:38:41] Ina Centaur: it's hard to take off the glasses
[19:38:32] Ina Centaur: back then, since the world "made sense" using the geocentric theories (if you ignore enough things)....
[19:38:14] Ina Centaur: i mean... consider the heliocentric vs geocentric theories
[19:37:55] Ina Centaur: and you can't take them off
[19:37:51] Ina Centaur: these glasses descend over your eyes... and you see the world in a new color
[19:37:44] Ina Centaur: once you're a legit scientist, you get pulled into a sort of world view
[19:37:25] Ina Centaur: well ,jack, orthodix science is kinda like a religion
[19:37:08] Ina Centaur: Rearden, for example, believed in the "good" that his family had been elusive about... and still managed to produce
[19:36:48] Ina Centaur: Rand might say that those who believe in God ought to think harder... but, there's nothing against believing in something spiritual and still producing things
[19:36:23] Ina Centaur: but, basically, i don't think it matters if one believes in God and still does rational work to produce things -- or not
[19:36:22] Jack Sondergaard: and I think a lot of group-think results from the peer review system
[19:36:03] Ina Centaur: biologists, for example.. etc
[19:35:54] Ina Centaur: and it's not just modern physics.
[19:35:47] Ina Centaur: there are scientists who do not permit themselves to think deeply enough to question the basic principles
[19:35:32] Jack Sondergaard: yes, modern scientists have embraced a lot of mysticism in relitivity and quantum physics
[19:34:49] Ina Centaur: hmm, actually, Rand might think that most scientists are immoral because they don't question their principles deeply enough
[19:34:36] Jack Sondergaard: and capitalism has not depended on atheism for it's existance
[19:33:39] Jack Sondergaard: a great deal of science and technology was created by people who believed in God
[19:33:25] Ina Centaur: the muscles claim there is no religion/spirtuality... and no mind, either... just muscles
[19:33:09] Ina Centaur: she's actually mystics vs muscles
[19:33:03] Ina Centaur: hmm
[19:32:25] Jack Sondergaard: I think reason or non-reason can be in the thinking of those who believe God exists and those who don't
[19:31:19] Jack Sondergaard: one thing puzzles me about Rand, she equates all non-reason with religion, yet the Soviet Union was atheistic
[19:30:02] Ina Centaur: the whole part of him coming on the radio to explain this... albeit, he's saying the speech for Dagny... he also mentions he's saying it to the remaining minds
[19:29:33] Ina Centaur: also, even though Galt only uses it to retaliate against physical force, i still see Galt's force as different -- his force is "forgiving" in that it gives the people it's applied to the chance to right themselves.
[19:28:45] Ina Centaur: basically, the idea is that force can't be used out of whim; force in self-defense is ok, but not otherwise
[19:27:57] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[19:27:18] Ina Centaur: "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use."
[19:26:01] Ina Centaur: "Force and minds are opposites; morality ends where a gun begins."
[19:26:00] Jack Sondergaard: yes, she is quite clear about that in the book
[19:25:31] Ina Centaur: "So long as men desire to live together, no man may initiate... the use of physical force against others."
[19:24:58] Ina Centaur: [2007/08/20 14:50] Melch Savon: (Saved Mon Aug 20 11:15:36 2007) Ina, found passage in Galt's speech on the radio that may shed light on our discussion [2007/08/20 14:50] Melch Savon: (Saved Mon Aug 20 11:17:34 2007) "I do not grant the terms of reason to men who propose to deprive me of reason. I do not enter discussions with neighbors who think they can forbid me to think. I do not place my moral sanction on a murderer's wish to kill me. When a man attempts to deal with my by force, I answer him -- by force." [2007/08/20 14:50] Melch Savon: (Saved Mon Aug 20 11:18:08 2007) I think Rand knew exactly what she had Galt doing, and as usual, laid it out right in front of us so there would be no misunderstanding.
[19:24:48] Ina Centaur: and i'm just flipping thru galt's speech to find the answer to melch's response
[19:24:40] Jack Sondergaard: oh
[19:24:33] Ina Centaur: group chat is broken
[19:24:24] Jack Sondergaard: hello
[19:24:14] Ina Centaur: :-D
[19:24:13] Ina Centaur: hi!
[19:19:35] Jack Sondergaard: I had some trouble logging in, but finally made it
[19:19:00] Jack Sondergaard: hi Ina
[23:07:48] Harman Mayo: nite
[23:07:33] Ina Centaur: nite harman
[23:07:18] Harman Mayo: moved a lot of brick today - am tired
[23:07:17] Jack Sondergaard: I'm going to study
[23:07:04] Jack Sondergaard: not me
[23:07:03] Harman Mayo: unfortunately, yes
[23:07:03] Ina Centaur: nite jack
[23:06:56] Jack Sondergaard: see you tomorrow, I should be on time, off work
[23:06:46] Ina Centaur: lol are we all going to sleep now that the willful force has tpéd out? o..O
[23:06:16] Harman Mayo: very
[23:06:15] Ina Centaur: wasn't actually expecting a discussion. nice surprise
[23:06:11] Jack Sondergaard: yes
[23:06:06] Ina Centaur: this was fun :-)
[23:05:42] Harman Mayo: yrue
[23:05:33] Ina Centaur: but it's just semantics
[23:05:31] Harman Mayo: and this was at least a lively debate
[23:05:24] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:05:22] Ina Centaur: i don't think melch knows the difference between will and force
[23:05:10] Harman Mayo: true
[23:05:04] Jack Sondergaard: if we all saw the same way, there would be no discussion
[23:04:56] Harman Mayo: and 7 am wake up
[23:04:54] Ina Centaur: nite
[23:04:52] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:04:48] Harman Mayo: 3 am here
[23:04:40] Melch Savon: Night all. Love these discussions, even if I rarely see things the same way :)
[23:04:23] Melch Savon: Force is one of many possible ways to enforce your will on others of course
[23:04:12] Jack Sondergaard: OK, good night everyone
[23:04:03] Melch Savon: but I don't think you need to hold a gun to employ force. There are many ways to bring pressure on people
[23:04:03] Ina Centaur: yes midnight here as well.
[23:03:55] Ina Centaur: ok, basically... will vs force, melch.. what's the difference?
[23:03:44] Melch Savon: anyways, midnight here folks, I have to turn in
[23:03:29] Ina Centaur: lol
[23:03:25] Harman Mayo: like q mechanics
[23:03:11] Melch Savon: yes, just another tool
[23:03:02] Jack Sondergaard: force in and of itself is not evil, but how, when, and why it is used that makes it good or evil
[23:02:54] Harman Mayo: you've stated that foece can be applied justly
[23:02:52] Melch Savon: The one that won Ina
[23:02:40] Harman Mayo: i know
[23:02:34] Melch Savon: you seem to think I am making a moral judgement that force has to be wrong. I am not.
[23:02:27] Ina Centaur: so in the battle of withdrawal vs guns... which is more forceful?
[23:02:19] Harman Mayo: he just refused to be sacrificed along with society
[23:02:13] Melch Savon: guy hits me, I didn't initiate the fight. I might still end it.
[23:01:55] Harman Mayo: Galt didn't initiate the collapse
[23:01:47] Ina Centaur: thompson's fights with guns
[23:01:43] Ina Centaur: galt's army fights with withdrawal
[23:01:43] Harman Mayo: but the society was already collapsing
[23:01:35] Ina Centaur: 2 armies
[23:01:33] Ina Centaur: the battle goes like this:
[23:01:27] Ina Centaur: we're talkin about the battle not the war
[23:01:20] Melch Savon: collapsing a society is a force
[23:01:16] Ina Centaur: which is the greater force?
[23:01:08] Ina Centaur: so, let's say withdrawal is considered a force o_O
[23:01:07] Melch Savon: Or is hydralic despotism not force?
[23:01:05] Harman Mayo: probably would have been
[23:00:55] Harman Mayo: if it's delayed, those minds may be destroyed by the mob
[23:00:53] Melch Savon: he persuades the 'army'. They are the means to his collapsing society to force the looters to his action
[23:00:46] Ina Centaur: galt's army fights via withdrawal ... thompson's army fights with guns
[23:00:35] Jack Sondergaard: if he only withdrew by himself, he would have made little difference
[23:00:32] Harman Mayo: sure - if the collapse is accellerated then he may live long enough to rebuild
[23:00:31] Ina Centaur: fine, i concede to that. but, let's talk about how his *army* fights
[23:00:21] Melch Savon: That's action. That's actively bringing about a result. The result was to "shut down the motor of the world" to force the looters not to steal from him and his people as it were.
[23:00:20] Ina Centaur: ok, so galt uses the force of argument to round up his "army"
[22:59:40] Melch Savon: Look, if Galt withdrew by himself, I'd concede your point. But he mobilizes the best minds in the country to help him act.
[22:59:31] Harman Mayo: better to jump on a life boat than to go down with the sinking ship
[22:59:07] Melch Savon: and Galt accelerated it to meet his goals sooner
[22:59:06] Harman Mayo: it had too much momentum
[22:58:48] Harman Mayo: but the collapse was already inevitable
[22:58:45] Ina Centaur: they can't accept that fact
[22:58:45] Melch Savon: in order to bring pressure on the looters and *force* them to his view
[22:58:41] Ina Centaur: basically, in the world of A.S., the villains seriously want to die -- that's why they keep on blanking out...
[22:58:29] Melch Savon: I would say he withdraws the minds needed to keep the motor of society running
[22:58:23] Ina Centaur: he prevents the other side from killing everyone, even the minds
[22:58:04] Jack Sondergaard: what is the Galt upgrade?
[22:58:02] Ina Centaur: he withdraws the minds that would be needed for Thompson to create teh Galt Upgrade
[22:57:45] Ina Centaur: meh.. rather
[22:57:39] Ina Centaur: instead he sorta does civil disobedience
[22:57:32] Ina Centaur: Galt: doesn't use the Galt UPgrade of Thompson Harmonizer, but....
[22:57:24] Ina Centaur: looters: THompson Harmonizer
[22:57:23] Melch Savon: a different sort of force is still force though
[22:57:23] Harman Mayo: but didn't he also save what was best of that society, rather than allowing it to also be swallowed in the destruction?
[22:57:16] Ina Centaur: but ok, we will play using your definition
[22:57:10] Ina Centaur: /me sighs... it's a different sort of force
[22:56:45] Melch Savon: The looters used force and Galt responded in kind
[22:56:33] Melch Savon: they started it, Galt sped it up
[22:56:22] Jack Sondergaard: they wanted the products of business, but they destroyed the environment needed for business to work
[22:56:15] Melch Savon: the means was force
[22:56:02] Melch Savon: by forcing the societal downfall at an accelerated rate, but yes Harman, that is exactly what I am trying to say
[22:55:46] Ina Centaur: to the ends
[22:55:44] Ina Centaur: the goal is to be able to live in the world that is proper.... shutting down the motor is a means
[22:55:35] Harman Mayo: by wiping the slate clean - he is using force - the utter destruction of the sick society
[22:55:29] Jack Sondergaard: they were asking for the impossible to be done, for things to be produced without the money and materials needed to produce them
[22:54:59] Ina Centaur: (etc) absolute realism again
[22:54:54] Harman Mayo: i think i understand
[22:54:53] Ina Centaur: it can't exist if the reality does not exist
[22:54:49] Melch Savon: Oh, I thought he wanted to shut down the motor of the world. My mistake
[22:54:40] Ina Centaur: a mind exists in a physical reality
[22:54:34] Harman Mayo: ah - the light comes on!
[22:54:32] Ina Centaur: he wants to start a rational society... one where people did not start with the reversal of cause and effect. it should be: i am, thus i think... rather than vice versa
[22:54:14] Jack Sondergaard: they wanted to have the cake and eat it too
[22:54:11] Melch Savon: I mean what means was he employing. What was he bringing about?
[22:53:56] Ina Centaur: you mean what's galt's goal?
[22:53:43] Melch Savon: Define "shut down the motor of the world" and its consequences?
[22:53:25] Melch Savon: And how would taking them out prove this?
[22:53:22] Jack Sondergaard: Galt Almighty
[22:53:12] Melch Savon: (Melch will not feel he has to try and prove the great flood was force)
[22:53:09] Harman Mayo: yep
[22:53:04] Ina Centaur: the gulch is the ark
[22:53:00] Ina Centaur: yes
[22:52:54] Harman Mayo: he's playing noah
[22:52:53] Ina Centaur: it's the randian version of the bible's great flood
[22:52:46] Jack Sondergaard: they demanded that things happen, but without understanding there were not the resources available to make it happen, then didn't accept cause and effect, thus were insane
[22:52:45] Ina Centaur: to purge the world
[22:52:43] Ina Centaur: galt is taking the producers out to shut down the motor of the world and to save his brethern
[22:52:36] Melch Savon: I ask about producers, you talk only of looters
[22:52:13] Melch Savon: why is galt taking the producers out of the world?
[22:52:00] Ina Centaur: the looters believe that gravity works only if they believe in it
[22:51:49] Ina Centaur: thinking that if they DON'T see it... it won't fall!
[22:51:47] Melch Savon: why is galt taking them out?
[22:51:44] Ina Centaur: and squeeze their eyes shut
[22:51:39] Ina Centaur: i mean, they always tend to ignore what they're doing... they would avoid realizing the fact that the cup would fall
[22:51:23] Ina Centaur: melch, the looters have no mind...
[22:51:07] Melch Savon: and why is he taking them out?
[22:50:52] Jack Sondergaard: the looters thought things could be made out of thin air
[22:50:48] Ina Centaur: he's taking the ghosts that the looters do not recognize exist out
[22:50:35] Ina Centaur: force is not applied per se... because galt isn't forcing actual people out
[22:50:24] Harman Mayo: when did he deliver the ultimatum to the looters?
[22:50:19] Ina Centaur: so, if you want to go all abstract metaphorical...
[22:50:07] Melch Savon: It was applied in self-defense. It was morally good. It was still force
[22:50:07] Ina Centaur: basically: i'm saying, Galt isn't removing people known to the looters, per se... he's removing the ghosts... UNHAUNTING THE WORLD!
[22:50:04] Harman Mayo: how?
[22:49:51] Melch Savon: The force was applied to the looters
[22:49:42] Ina Centaur: the looters see producers as evil money-making grafters... they do not recognize the fact that commodities need to be produced
[22:49:34] Harman Mayo: but Galt didn't "force" others to join him - he persuaded
[22:49:33] Melch Savon: "give up and let me run the world or perish" = "your life or your mind"
[22:49:24] Ina Centaur: in the looter's reality... the producers do not exist
[22:49:17] Ina Centaur: note that...
[22:49:16] Ina Centaur: ALSO...
[22:49:12] Ina Centaur: galt is saying: give up and let me run the world or perish in the mess you've created
[22:48:53] Melch Savon: and Galt is saying your life or your mind
[22:48:48] Harman Mayo: and i need to force myself to bed - but a very lively discussion this has been
[22:48:41] Melch Savon: neither of which is the point at hand
[22:48:40] Ina Centaur: the looters are saying: your mind or your life
[22:48:30] Jack Sondergaard: there is a difference between asking to be paid what I am worth and asking to be paid what I want, regardless of my worth
[22:48:28] Melch Savon: so?
[22:48:28] Ina Centaur: his mind is his own property
[22:48:24] Ina Centaur: basically:
[22:48:22] Ina Centaur: but it's not unjust though
[22:48:12] Melch Savon: Then Galt, by threatening the looters, is employing force. Isn't that what we just said?
[22:47:57] Ina Centaur: unjust application of force is bad.
[22:47:50] Ina Centaur: that's precisely the point melch!
[22:47:41] Melch Savon: So? Force can be applied unjustly
[22:47:34] Ina Centaur: *u
[22:47:31] Ina Centaur: someone who is being robbed of their money, helpless -- that's injust
[22:47:24] Melch Savon: So what if it is just? Force can be applied justly
[22:47:17] Ina Centaur: someone who isn't getting paid their worth can quit if they want
[22:47:13] Melch Savon: but it is still a threat. At least now you admit there is one.
[22:47:07] Ina Centaur: the threat is just
[22:46:57] Ina Centaur: do you see?
[22:46:56] Ina Centaur: the threat is different
[22:46:55] Melch Savon: I've gotten several raises that way
[22:46:49] Harman Mayo: hmm - bad analogy - there is the implied threat
[22:46:46] Melch Savon: Yes, by the way Ina, that is force
[22:46:36] Melch Savon: if you don't allow me the metaphorical gun (hey, in 2 weeks all New York will run out of food!) then of course Galt isn't using force. But are you really going to limit it that much
[22:46:13] Ina Centaur: and, i'd drag all my friends with me.
[22:46:07] Ina Centaur: it's not force, per se, when someone goes: if you don't pay me what i'm worth, i'll quit.
[22:45:51] Ina Centaur: force occurs when someone puts a gun to your head: your life or your money
[22:45:39] Ina Centaur: ok, melch, how about this...
[22:45:13] Melch Savon: Oh, Galt's Gulch was someone else's design
[22:45:00] Melch Savon: But Galt acts -- for years he actively recruits the people keeping society moving to leave it! He actively supresses new inventions and designs
[22:44:57] Jack Sondergaard: yes, Galt did use force, but he didn't initiate it
[22:44:28] Harman Mayo: i'm trying to understand how failure to act is seen as a force
[22:44:00] Melch Savon: again - are you trying to tell me incentives are equal to disincentives
[22:43:39] Harman Mayo: no - if i offered a prize of ten million dollars to design a suborbitaal spaceship - am i forcing it tp be built?
[22:43:19] Melch Savon: Which relates to the question 'is Galt using force' how? I missed it, sorry
[22:42:59] Jack Sondergaard: the looters didn't want to save society, but to create a "socialist utopia", which Rand considered the destruction of a society
[22:42:57] Melch Savon: Galt is not motivating with incentives here -- he is using disincentives
[22:42:24] Melch Savon: is that analagous to witholding the money they need to buy groceries Harman?
[22:41:59] Harman Mayo: would offering a prize of dollars be force in the world, Melch?
[22:41:09] Melch Savon: discipline, sorry
[22:41:05] Melch Savon: That is not disciple?
[22:40:58] Melch Savon: ok. Now do I understand, that in your definition, that the threat of not helping the looters save society (a severe punishment!) is not force?
[22:39:56] Ina Centaur: i.e., the force is a form of discipline, punishment used as a form of force
[22:39:37] Ina Centaur: yes, i think in Rand's case, force generally refers to a threat with severe punishmenet
[22:39:29] Melch Savon: actually I was thinking brining any form of pressure to produce a result is force
[22:39:16] Harman Mayo: force would mean compulsion to me - ie "do this or suffer the consequences"
[22:39:05] Ina Centaur: ok, so basically, melch, this is your version of force: when someone walks, they are forcing their feet to move. when someone eats, they are forcing their mouths to open etc... virtually EVERY action can be seen as an act of force under your current uberliberal def'n
[22:38:28] Melch Savon: what definition would you like to use?
[22:38:13] Melch Savon: you failed to put boundaries around your words
[22:38:00] Ina Centaur: melch, you're applying force waaay too liberally...
[22:37:52] Melch Savon: I don't think there was a separation but then again, I am not quite done with the book
[22:37:44] Ina Centaur: ok, we need to define force
[22:37:32] Jack Sondergaard: to force them to change their views? or to see the real nature of their views?
[22:36:58] Melch Savon: Removing themselves was a form of force. Force, after all, is amoral
[22:36:40] Melch Savon: Either they are in the society, applying the force of their abilities and wills to it, or they withdraw with the intention of it going to hell withdrawing their force. Why withdraw? So they can force the looters to stop forcing them to give up the results of their production
[22:35:35] Melch Savon: that was not the point Jack. We are deciding if Galt was employing force or nto
[22:35:32] Ina Centaur: i would assume that withdrawl is not force. organized withdrawal is force applied to withdraw the people, but not force applied to the society from which the people are withdrawn!
[22:35:12] Jack Sondergaard: but it's hypothetical, what would happen if? Galt's Gulch doesn't exist in the real world, so it's a story to illustrate cause and effect
[22:35:05] Ina Centaur: yes, what definition *are* we using o..O
[22:34:54] Melch Savon: oh? what definition were we using?
[22:34:46] Harman Mayo: that still doesn't meet the definition of force
[22:34:38] Melch Savon: the force was on the looters, not those catching the cup
[22:34:23] Melch Savon: he still took the salvation from the looters to force them to change their views
[22:34:05] Melch Savon: He took the salvation from the looters
[22:34:03] Ina Centaur: ok, how about this: people who caught it would get their hands sliced up by broken glass... say the cup has jagged broken edges
[22:33:51] Melch Savon: Its still a form of force
[22:33:38] Melch Savon: people were going to catch it, and he actively compelled them not to in order to force the looters to experience the consequences of their beliefs
[22:33:21] Ina Centaur: it's not force, per se, in this case... is it?
[22:33:09] Melch Savon: ok, fine, same point
[22:33:02] Ina Centaur: he just convinced others not to catch it
[22:32:55] Ina Centaur: yes, he didn't force the cup to fall
[22:32:43] Harman Mayo: no - he convinced others not to catch it
[22:32:36] Ina Centaur: oh, actually, say you placed it on the CENTER of the table. but, a bunch of people shake the table.. and it just totters towards the edge
[22:32:14] Melch Savon: Galt pushed the cup
[22:32:10] Melch Savon: no, that's like saying Galt only left by himself
[22:31:59] Ina Centaur: you force it to fall?
[22:31:55] Ina Centaur: if you don't catch it
[22:31:50] Ina Centaur: say, if a cup is about to fall off the table, tottering off the edge...
[22:31:49] Harman Mayo: hmm - refusal to act isn't force
[22:31:37] Ina Centaur: so basically...
[22:31:28] Ina Centaur: ok, let's figure something out
[22:31:09] Melch Savon: I can't agree with you Ina. I think Galt actively created a situation to force the looters to confront the conclusion of their views and, basically, reality.
[22:30:25] Melch Savon: yes, of course\
[22:30:12] Jack Sondergaard: I think the book is like a thought experiment, what would happen if anti-business people really got what they believe in
[22:28:39] Melch Savon: oh? By taking the industrialists away and bringing about the logical conclusion of their theories he isn't employing force?
[22:28:32] Ina Centaur: instead.. he withdraws
[22:28:29] Ina Centaur: also, he doesn't do something forceful... say threaten everyone with the Galt Upgrade to the Thompson Harmonizer
[22:27:57] Ina Centaur: melch, galt does not force anyone. he gives them the facts, tries to teach them the right... the rest is their choice
[22:27:40] Harman Mayo: by extension one can say that those killed by a hurricane were the victims of justice
[22:27:19] Melch Savon: hmmm ... it feels like semantics. Galt forces the minds of the looters, that's his whole point, to force them to change their view. Galt initiates a movement among industrialists that logically will allow many to die, that is force, even if he does not hold a gun in his hand.
[22:27:12] Jack Sondergaard: I think Rand would get a kick out of the Darwin Awards
[22:26:50] Harman Mayo: hat statement confuses me
[22:25:50] Ina Centaur: melch, rand does not condone force per se on lemmings... just that reality deal death to them, lemmings get it anyway... and that's justice
[22:25:48] Jack Sondergaard: but in self-defence, it's OK
[22:25:30] Jack Sondergaard: she doesn't approve of initiating force
[22:25:17] Melch Savon: individualism again. Makes sense to me
[22:24:52] Melch Savon: ok, so the statement she does not advocate force is false. Or at the very least, she does not come out against it
[22:24:25] Jack Sondergaard: she condones allowing lemmings to commit suicide if they choose not to believe in gravity
[22:24:07] Melch Savon: My point being, is I think Rand clearly allows for force in her world view
[22:23:53] Melch Savon: but midas for instanc?
[22:23:38] Melch Savon: and thus the responsibility for those deaths in no part falls on them
[22:23:20] Melch Savon: that's just justice
[22:23:17] Jack Sondergaard: Dagney and Hank fought it until they couldn't win
[22:23:11] Melch Savon: Right, so Rand *does* condone force on lemmings, right?
[22:22:49] Ina Centaur: reality is the ultimate "blind justice"
[22:22:44] Melch Savon: I was thinking of the consequences to people directly from the decision to retreat to Galt's Gulch rather than fight to keep things running till the end
[22:22:40] Ina Centaur: ignorance isn't bliss, and won't keep you safe. etc
[22:22:31] Ina Centaur: in rand's world, that's justice
[22:22:25] Ina Centaur: blindly go about like lemmings
[22:22:21] Ina Centaur: well, melch, people like the farmer who perish.. they die because they allow themselves to
[22:21:41] Jack Sondergaard: guards were killed rescueing Galt
[22:21:30] Melch Savon: I remember a farmer, face down in a ditch, a sack of wheat still on his shoulders\
[22:21:04] Melch Savon: gotcha. so letting the infrastructure of society collapse, people starve, etc. ... we aren't counting 'indirect force'
[22:20:32] Ina Centaur: but, even when people are killed, it appears that they are killed for a reason..
[22:20:20] Ina Centaur: they don't actually kill people until the end...
[22:20:09] Melch Savon: hmm ... interesting
[22:20:08] Ina Centaur: *rand = Ragnar, rather
[22:20:01] Ina Centaur: melch, actually, Rand killed no one. he sunk ships, but he always made sure everyone, all sailors etc, were safe
[22:20:00] Melch Savon: I know it does not happen in A.S. but that just happened not to be the way open to them
[22:19:37] Melch Savon: force in general does not mean force a body
[22:19:31] Ina Centaur: i.e., man should never apply force to another
[22:19:22] Ina Centaur: (something like that)
[22:19:17] Ina Centaur: never force a mind
[22:19:15] Ina Centaur: in galt's speech, he will explicitly mention that the one thing that can't be done
[22:19:12] Harman Mayo: whoops - slipped a decimal point
[22:19:02] Melch Savon: I doubt Ragnar killed no one
[22:18:41] Melch Savon: on the grounds of Objectivism I mean?
[22:18:40] Harman Mayo: athieism claims the #2 spot
[22:18:34] Melch Savon: would Rand object?
[22:18:28] Ina Centaur: haha
[22:18:26] Ina Centaur: lol.. so what if some zealot wanted to convert everyone to objectivism ^^
[22:18:19] Melch Savon: ok, again, another big tangent
[22:18:14] Ina Centaur: so, is the usage of force wrong in all cases?
[22:18:04] Melch Savon: Rand believes the usage of force is wrong?
[22:18:00] Ina Centaur: was that they used to kill everyone who wasn't Chrsitian
[22:17:55] Ina Centaur: it's obvious here that one reason why Chrsitianity got to be so big...
[22:17:47] Melch Savon: otherwise it would have died with the crusaders
[22:17:45] Ina Centaur: yet...
[22:17:44] Ina Centaur: Rand believes that the usage of force is wrong...
[22:17:37] Ina Centaur: oh this brings on an interesting tangent back to Rand
[22:17:35] Melch Savon: More likely the power of persuasion.
[22:17:27] Melch Savon: I don't argue much with the numbers
[22:17:22] Ina Centaur: the power of crusading missionaries, eh?
[22:17:16] Melch Savon: yup.
[22:17:07] Ina Centaur: billions vs millions
[22:17:00] Ina Centaur: look @ the number though
[22:16:54] Melch Savon: hindus only #3
[22:16:52] Ina Centaur: yeah
[22:16:46] Melch Savon: wow, I was off
[22:16:41] Ina Centaur: a bit less sssthan 70... still a big number
[22:16:26] Melch Savon: I love living in the age of the internet
[22:16:10] Ina Centaur: http://geography.about.com/od/culturalgeography/a/popularreligion.htm
[22:15:51] Melch Savon: really? pretty large.
[22:15:44] Ina Centaur: hmm i think 70% of the world is christian..
[22:15:27] Melch Savon: number wise?
[22:15:21] Melch Savon: actually I thought most were hidus?
[22:15:16] Ina Centaur: lol gotta love kuhn. turn science into a religion. ha
[22:15:09] Ina Centaur: similar to how most people in the world are christian ;-)
[22:15:03] Ina Centaur: it's orthodox theory for a reason
[22:14:57] Ina Centaur: well, they do because that's what they're taught
[22:14:48] Ina Centaur: i view q theory as a tool.
[22:14:45] Melch Savon: You know lots of peopel do right?
[22:14:34] Melch Savon: ah, gotcha
[22:14:33] Ina Centaur: and really should not be interpreted as part of some philosophy
[22:14:27] Ina Centaur: there are some mathematical things that are just intermediate tools
[22:14:19] Jack Sondergaard: if I died tomorrow, would the universe cease to exist because I don't perceive it?
[22:14:18] Ina Centaur: that's basically what i'm saying... while it is interesting and even fun to think that you can form theories of reality based on "interpretations" of quantum theory... you really shouldn't do that
[22:13:38] Melch Savon: darn, I don't know the distance form my sofa to my loveseat until I measure it either
[22:13:19] Melch Savon: well, if that's not what you meant, aren't you just saying I don't know until I measure it and know?
[22:13:08] Ina Centaur: just a mathematical thing.
[22:12:57] Ina Centaur: prior to measurement: "superposition of states"
[22:12:42] Ina Centaur: notice how i didn't say that it's not absolute prior to measurement
[22:12:22] Melch Savon: certainly woudl change my view of life
[22:12:20] Melch Savon: already i dont' like the premise
[22:12:19] Ina Centaur: and this is basically only on the subatomic level. i.e., regime of hbar
[22:11:57] Melch Savon: oh, reality is not absolute until I measure it
[22:11:42] Jack Sondergaard: I believe quantum physics is just a mathematically useful temporary theory, because the more I read about it, the more it seems full of contradictions, and all the physicists say it's full of them too
[22:11:31] Ina Centaur: i mean, the idea is just that before measurement, your bunch of subatomic stuff is in a state of flux -- some superposition of states... and after measurement, the wave train breaks down, and you have certainty
[22:11:06] Melch Savon: or say the math is beyond me and I've reached the limits of my mind to comprehend .... :)
[22:10:42] Ina Centaur: you can take it instrumentally. i.e., for its results. take it as an incomplete theory that makes sense for teh applications thus far created from it
[22:10:15] Ina Centaur: well, you don't have to interpret quantum physics using the orthodox copenhagan mess
[22:09:55] Melch Savon: I'm still with you there, though I admit, quantum physics is strange. It may be we just have wrong pre-conceptions about how absolute reality works
[22:09:43] Ina Centaur: and, still, gravity would apply
[22:09:37] Ina Centaur: i mean... i could be so drug/tripped that i believe that the *cliff* doesn't exist... that the whole world is one constant elevation... absolutely convinced of it
[22:09:18] Jack Sondergaard: and by the way, I think the cat is either dead or alive, we just don't know which
[22:09:00] Melch Savon: yup yup
[22:08:55] Ina Centaur: *gravity
[22:08:53] Ina Centaur: i'd still fall
[22:08:52] Ina Centaur: if i don't believe that gravitiy exists, and i jump off a cliff...
[22:08:44] Ina Centaur: Rand: there exists an absolute reality
[22:08:34] Ina Centaur: precisely, jack
[22:08:29] Melch Savon: /me thinks "yay! it's not just me"
[22:08:12] Jack Sondergaard: if I am deaf, sound still exists, I just don't perceive it
[22:07:57] Melch Savon: Either there are 4 of us here or there are not. I don't care if you see 5,
[22:07:42] Melch Savon: It exists outside of us
[22:07:25] Melch Savon: Exactly Jack
[22:07:19] Melch Savon: yes, but whether we see it, or see it differently, the same objective reality exists
[22:07:13] Jack Sondergaard: John Nash hears voices that no one else hears, and has learned to understand that they are not real
[22:06:47] Ina Centaur: somet things become invisible; others brilliantly bright ... and those who aren't wearing the same glasses can't see things as you do.
[22:06:46] Melch Savon: I believe that while we may perceive it differently (you only here mono for instance) we are all perceiving the same objective reality
[22:06:30] Ina Centaur: yes, or we could take Kuhn's orthodox paradigms... once you are under a paradigm, it is as if you're putting on shaded lenses
[22:06:27] Harman Mayo: perception*
[22:06:19] Melch Savon: I disagree with that statement
[22:06:06] Harman Mayo: if they are real to you then they are real - percepyion = reality
[22:05:48] Melch Savon: Or am I perceiving incorrectly an objective world we all share?
[22:05:27] Melch Savon: Interesting idea there Harman, eh?
[22:05:13] Harman Mayo: so i cannot live in the same reality you do
[22:05:12] Melch Savon: If I see pink elephants and no one else does, are they really there in my world but not in anyone elses?
[22:05:11] Jack Sondergaard: how could a mind form a world, what evidence has there ever been of that?
[22:04:54] Harman Mayo: my world is mono - due to deafness
[22:04:36] Harman Mayo: all different
[22:04:15] Melch Savon: Does you mind form it's own world, or is there an objective world we all participate in and experience basically the same way?
[22:03:49] Melch Savon: The question is: do we each live in different realities, or a common one? My gf says the former, I say the latter. But I like Rand, no surprise
[22:03:45] Jack Sondergaard: that depends on whether A is equal to B, but it would still be A even if it is equal to B
[22:03:10] Ina Centaur: a more solid example, melch?
[22:02:32] Melch Savon: Who says Jack? What if I think A is A from one angle, and B from another? What standard can you point to that says I am wrong?
[22:02:30] Jack Sondergaard: trading equal value for value
[22:02:11] Jack Sondergaard: non-contradiction
[22:01:56] Jack Sondergaard: A is A
[22:01:36] Jack Sondergaard: I don't follow any philosopher or religious leader without analyzing everything they say to find out what I can believe
[22:01:23] Melch Savon: It was all from herself, based as far as I can see on her own life experiences
[22:01:08] Melch Savon: sure. What objective source of the standards that define Objectivism did she draw from?
[22:00:43] Ina Centaur: Rand subjectively chooses??!
[22:00:40] Melch Savon: your standards may always be changing. Nothing is clear and life defining, is it?
[22:00:16] Melch Savon: Moral Relativism is like sugar I think -- sweet, good for the moment, and in the long run, no the best choice
[21:59:40] Melch Savon: hmmm, like Rand, you subjectively choose
[21:59:36] Ina Centaur: and why not?
[21:59:27] Jack Sondergaard: I do, not on every point, but on many
[21:59:05] Melch Savon: Just out of curiousity, does anyone see value to living according to the morality Rand espouses?
[21:58:35] Melch Savon: but back to Rand. What line of thought were we on?
[21:58:17] Melch Savon: well, there is a reason for that.
[21:58:16] Harman Mayo: Created by L Ron Hubbard
[21:57:55] Ina Centaur: search > groups > scientology ... looks like it's a weak group on SL
[21:57:05] Melch Savon: I used to live near one of the 2 major centers in the US -- Hemet, CA
[21:56:54] Melch Savon: good and bad
[21:56:51] Jack Sondergaard: a religion for movie stars
[21:56:49] Melch Savon: google it. you're get all kinds of info
[21:56:39] Melch Savon: no, no, that's another long discussion
[21:56:30] Ina Centaur: (what *is* scientology btw?)
[21:55:50] Melch Savon: Don't know, haven't read that yet
[21:55:44] Jack Sondergaard: how did Eddie die?
[21:55:36] Melch Savon: Don't confuse Rand with Scientology. :) I think she just assumed her reader would assume that where go the parents, there go the kids
[21:55:04] Ina Centaur: and parents would leave w/o them? o..O
[21:54:57] Ina Centaur: hmm... so basically parents would leave kids outside the gulch
[21:54:42] Melch Savon: well, 1957
[21:54:24] Melch Savon: /me goes to check copyright date
[21:54:01] Melch Savon: It's possible it never occurred to her that her readers would think children could be other than with the family. This was, what, late the 30s or 40s she was writing this ?
[21:53:41] Ina Centaur: but yet, they are "allowed" to do so since they are not yet mature, i.e., developing brains
[21:53:24] Ina Centaur: so these children depend on the mother... and thus can't take the striker's oath
[21:52:55] Ina Centaur: i mean, Rand is an absolutist. so, she would have "leniancy" for those whose brains are not yet developed
[21:52:53] Melch Savon: She just tells us
[21:52:45] Melch Savon: Rand seems pretty much to spell everything out to me
[21:52:31] Ina Centaur: well, multiple purposes, of course
[21:52:20] Melch Savon: got it
[21:52:15] Melch Savon: ah, you think they were there to make her seem less elitist.
[21:52:01] Ina Centaur: to cherryl and eddie's everymen death
[21:51:52] Ina Centaur: to Rand's attempt to not seem so elitist
[21:51:45] Ina Centaur: lol abortion went to children in AS to mother to ideal randian everyperson
[21:51:15] Melch Savon: hmmm ... human spirit entering the discussion now?
[21:50:55] Ina Centaur: reality: w/o heroes, the world falls... ignorance is no excuse.
[21:50:34] Ina Centaur: they have Randian ideals.. but yet, Rand lets them die. i guess she's illustrating that reality waits for no one. in eddie's case, everyman dies when heroes disappear. in cheryll's case, ignorance can kill.
[21:50:24] Melch Savon: yes, but wasn't it the purpose of having the children in the book we were speaking of?
[21:49:51] Jack Sondergaard: yes, according to Rand, she gains a lot by taking care of her family
[21:49:32] Ina Centaur: i.e., that of Eddie and Cheryll's deaths
[21:49:25] Ina Centaur: but then again... there are other issues that seem to imply that she is...
[21:49:04] Ina Centaur: i think that was Rand's attempt to not be too elitist o..O
[21:48:41] Ina Centaur: hmm actually th mother is sort of an ideal randian everyperson -- she basically did the best of her ability for her own gain
[21:48:23] Melch Savon: yay!
[21:47:58] Ina Centaur: (gj jack :-D )
[21:47:52] Melch Savon: ah, I recall that the mother was presented as the possible exception. The only comments about the children I recall were how great they were because they didn't know any adults who would tell them anything irrational.
[21:47:52] Jack Sondergaard: I finished the book today
[21:47:10] Ina Centaur: yes galt's creed = striker's oath
[21:47:01] Melch Savon: you mean the strikers oath?
[21:46:56] Ina Centaur: i.e., children whose minds have not developed to the point where they cannot be put at gunpoint and be condemned for pleading ignorance
[21:46:31] Ina Centaur: no... i think she had them in the book to prove that there were exceptions to the creed
[21:45:43] Melch Savon: wasn't that the point of having them in the book?
[21:45:10] Melch Savon: And what did Rand point out? that they were better off in a life where no irrational thoughts were introduced. We're back to worshipping the mind, right?
[21:45:08] Ina Centaur: i.e., promise never to let another man depend on me, or let myself depend on him
[21:44:57] Ina Centaur: her children are dependent on her, and the fate of their lives based on her decision.. yet, it's an exception to Galt's creed
[21:44:55] Harman Mayo: did you try the heat solution from theother night?
[21:44:29] Ina Centaur: example -- the mother in Galt's Gulch who took her children to live there to save their minds from the world, etc
[21:44:23] Jack Sondergaard: I turned off my computer for a while and switch to the lowest resolution possible, hopefully that will help
[21:44:20] Melch Savon: (actually my point was wherever you draw the line, it's a subject choice. the next person draws it somewhere else. you have no objective morality to judge by.)
[21:44:19] Ina Centaur: keeping the textual details to just A.S., you notice that in the book she often sheds good light on mothers who are responsible
[21:43:54] Ina Centaur: Rand, btw, would not necessarily be an advocate of abortion
[21:43:53] Harman Mayo: heated off topic discussion in progress
[21:43:42] Ina Centaur: (then again, i suppose i am deviating from the issue. the issue is just that of whether it's right for one being to terminate that of another if the other being exists solely dependently on the mother
[21:43:40] Harman Mayo: wb , Jack
[21:43:36] Melch Savon: (Oh, YOU decide for them. But it's not subjective. I get it.)
[21:43:15] Ina Centaur: (well, there's the responsibility of the mother to both herself and her child. abortion at a late stage is dangerous, if not in the short run, then in the long run. sure, if you're basically some bimbo now you wouldn't mind sterility... but people tend to grow out of that stage...
[21:42:11] Melch Savon: (so if technology improves and we can observe it earlier next year, your line moves?)
[21:41:57] Ina Centaur: ( indirectly, of course)
[21:41:56] Harman Mayo: (it's still medically a parasite until birth)
[21:41:33] Melch Savon: (and how is "sufficently developed" itself not a subject choice of where to draw the line)
[21:41:33] Ina Centaur: (can observe the physical presence of a brain :-) )
[21:41:07] Melch Savon: (really? by what objective criteria?)
[21:40:55] Ina Centaur: (biologically, "sufficiently developed" is quite clearly marked)
[21:40:34] Melch Savon: I say draw it at 80 years old
[21:40:28] Harman Mayo: sure - i have been known to advocate the death penalty for paerking violations
[21:40:24] Melch Savon: (yeah, but again "sufficently developed" is still a random place to draw the line)
[21:40:03] Ina Centaur: (moreover, personally, i believe that abortion after the fetus has developed sufficient cortex is, in a way, murder.... maybe there is some celestial justice tying up sterility with abortion @ a late stage... those irresponsible should have the priv of childbirth revoked.)
[21:40:01] Melch Savon: (it was longer than that, but that's the idea)
[21:39:42] Melch Savon: (you don't understand. My premise was that abortions were happening because we figured that life was a burden. Then I pointed out adults who were clearly a burden, not potential, but actual. I suggested we should take a gun and "abort" them. Seems logical)
[21:39:38] Harman Mayo: (anecdotal evidence - inadmissable)
[21:38:44] Ina Centaur: (well, many i know whom had had abortions at a late stage later regret it... because they are no longer able to have children.)
[21:38:16] Melch Savon: (no risk at age 1 year old and up)
[21:38:07] Harman Mayo: (still less risk than a full term pregnancy)
[21:37:51] Ina Centaur: (abortion is safe based on which stage the development is in. after which, could result in tragedies.)
[21:37:49] Melch Savon: (bah, I won with real life examples of 30 year olds who society would benefit if we aborted right then and there. Who says 9 months is the cut off time? It's totally arbitrary)
[21:37:14] Ina Centaur: (also, abortion comes with its own can of worms... physical issues.)
[21:36:45] Harman Mayo: true
[21:36:35] Ina Centaur: i mean.. put a bunch of objectivists together.. they'd clearly arrive at a different consensus than another "general public" group
[21:36:09] Melch Savon: yes
[21:36:06] Ina Centaur: mmm and consensus rests on the size/content of hte group
[21:36:03] Melch Savon: I would say absolutely, more and more each day
[21:35:54] Melch Savon: yes
[21:35:50] Melch Savon: (I once convinced a group of people abortion till age 20 was a rational, great idea. Of course none of us was sober, but still ..)
[21:35:49] Ina Centaur: lol... relative morality = conventional view?
[21:35:26] Harman Mayo: yay!
[21:35:06] Melch Savon: conventional? subjective morality arrived at by consensus
[21:35:03] Ina Centaur: oh.. both of you are quite easy actually ;-)
[21:35:01] Harman Mayo: uh oh - here we go again - lol
[21:34:47] Ina Centaur: what is conventional morality btw?
[21:34:45] Melch Savon: nah, you should have seen me in college
[21:34:41] Ina Centaur: and the conventional view?
[21:34:36] Harman Mayo: i'm not usually so difficult
[21:34:29] Melch Savon: Well there you go. That's her viewpoint. Did I misunderstand the question?
[21:34:07] Ina Centaur: yup, we've established that that is Rand's morality
[21:34:07] Melch Savon: Thanks Harman, I was wondering if I would ever say something we could agree on :)
[21:33:57] Harman Mayo: yes
[21:33:51] Melch Savon: That's Rand
[21:33:48] Melch Savon: That's her standard. Dont' use your abilities to the fullest? Evil. Don't get rewarded? Evil.
[21:33:43] Harman Mayo: that i agree with
[21:33:22] Melch Savon: Her chosen perfection is the mind, personal ability, the maximal exercise thereof, and reward
[21:33:21] Ina Centaur: (... )
[21:32:54] Harman Mayo: in fact, I'm a priest
[21:32:47] Melch Savon: But Rand has chosen a standard
[21:32:44] Harman Mayo: far from an athiest
[21:32:37] Harman Mayo: no - i was talking from a Randian viewpoint
[21:32:21] Melch Savon: It's the logical thing
[21:32:20] Melch Savon: See? Moral relativism
[21:32:06] Harman Mayo: so i can accept that a judgemnet is a consensus - but not that it is objective
[21:31:57] Melch Savon: If you don't believe that -- and Harman has already stated he is an atheist -- then there cannot be a perfect standard. You can choose as you like.
[21:31:33] Harman Mayo: and standards vary from culture to culture - and person to person
[21:31:24] Melch Savon: I refer to my statement about a First Cause
[21:31:11] Harman Mayo: yes
[21:31:02] Melch Savon: those are value statements that vary from entity to entity, aren't they?
[21:30:49] Ina Centaur: flawless - ideal./... or, test-wise, suppose you had a duel between a bunch of standards... the only one remaining after the end would be the most flawless
[21:30:45] Melch Savon: Either you believe in a First Cause that has the right to define the objective morality, or there is not one, and you choose your own.
[21:30:09] Harman Mayo: imagine being the salient word
[21:30:04] Melch Savon: flawless? I don't know how to define that
[21:29:53] Melch Savon: philosophers always imagine themselves to be consistent I think :)
[21:29:50] Ina Centaur: (choosing a flawless standard is a feat in itself btw)
[21:29:36] Ina Centaur: yes, if you are consistent
[21:29:32] Harman Mayo: hmmm - i'll accept that there have been attempts to awnswer it
[21:29:18] Melch Savon: But do you accept that once a standard is chosen, it becomes your 'objective' yardstick to measure all else by?
[21:28:52] Melch Savon: so you know how many answers have been made to that question
[21:28:49] Ina Centaur: a long time ago..
[21:28:39] Harman Mayo: yes
[21:28:29] Melch Savon: Ever read the History of Western Philosophy by Bertrand Russell? It's a mind bender
[21:28:03] Melch Savon: Let's settle one point at a time
[21:27:55] Melch Savon: Hold on, because that goes back to Plato. It's not a new question, and it's a deep one
[21:27:37] Harman Mayo: but the question is put - how can a standard be objective?
[21:27:32] Melch Savon: The point is once you accept a standard of right and wrong, wherever it comes from, it is the yardstick you judge all by
[21:27:21] Jack Sondergaard: thanks, still having video blackouts
[21:26:45] Melch Savon: Jack, btw, awesome outfit. Don't think I've ever said that
[21:26:34] Melch Savon: We aren't trying to define right and wrong for the whole world right here and now. Tomorrow maybe? *grin*
[21:26:32] Ina Centaur: (wb jack)
[21:26:01] Melch Savon: Which one is not relevant to the point
[21:25:51] Harman Mayo: i did
[21:25:50] Melch Savon: Once you accept *a* standard.
[21:25:42] Melch Savon: No, stick with my question, not sidelines
[21:25:34] Melch Savon: I often think Rand'd entire philosophy is a reaction against communism.
[21:25:32] Harman Mayo: which standard?
[21:25:08] Melch Savon: It is if you don't accept a single, objective moral standard. Once you do, then is it?
[21:24:43] Harman Mayo: it's an inherrently subjective judgement
[21:24:42] Melch Savon: remember, she fled communist Russia. That appears to be her life defining event
[21:24:27] Harman Mayo: there's no objective measure of worth
[21:24:16] Melch Savon: sure. Rand chooses industrial and technological advances; the ability to create an run a business; anythingelse?
[21:23:50] Harman Mayo: but again - how does one decide value to society
[21:23:22] Melch Savon: maybe "from value to society" instead of "from ability"
[21:23:18] Ina Centaur: in atlas shrugged, basically the starnes heirs decided
[21:23:01] Ina Centaur: similarly, with capitalism.. it's often impossible to gauge pay vs ability... people are often underpaid or overpaid based on messed up industry standards
[21:23:01] Melch Savon: and who decides?
[21:22:54] Harman Mayo: and needs are as unequal as abilities are
[21:22:40] Ina Centaur: you could assign it to one person, but then nepotism and such may come in the way
[21:22:29] Ina Centaur: i think it's because it's impossible to gauge need vs ability
[21:22:26] Melch Savon: You can harness it or die
[21:22:18] Melch Savon: Mankind is selfish
[21:22:11] Melch Savon: because it kills the motivating factor for those with the ability.
[21:21:56] Melch Savon: It is one we tend to slip into as a race, but no, it is not
[21:21:50] Harman Mayo: no
[21:21:50] Ina Centaur: and btw, why does it fail?
[21:21:37] Ina Centaur: yes, "to each according to need; from each according to ability" ... is that the conventional morality?
[21:21:30] Melch Savon: Justice in my view, again, serves as aredress to affronts to a moral code
[21:20:40] Melch Savon: It was a redress to the wrongs being done to them
[21:20:31] Melch Savon: sure. Government denied Rands highest rule -- to each according to ability -- them going to Galt's Gulch and letting society live with it was Rand's idea of justice
[21:20:16] Harman Mayo: sorry, Jack
[21:20:07] Jack Sondergaard: more video trouble
[21:19:46] Ina Centaur: ok, so back to justice, melch... the industrialists going to galt's gulch and leaving the world to die = justice?
[21:19:42] Melch Savon: oh, personal morals vs. societal morals, gotcha
[21:19:28] Ina Centaur: you're free to hold your own sessions in this buildingas well :-)
[21:19:22] Th30th3rm3 Zinner: Prison Love... by Amanda Hugginkiss
[21:19:18] Harman Mayo: morals are the code of society - not the individual
[21:19:04] Th30th3rm3 Zinner: Trails in the Desert... by Peter Dragon
[21:19:00] Ina Centaur: :-D
[21:18:46] Th30th3rm3 Zinner: Little Puddles... by I.P. Freely
[21:18:46] Melch Savon: /me thinks this could turn into a general philosophy group -- exciting!
[21:18:38] Jack Sondergaard: hi Ina, Harman and Melch
[21:18:36] Harman Mayo: hi jack
[21:18:16] Ina Centaur: (hi jack)
[21:18:12] Melch Savon: you're using different definitions than we just defined. How is that morals?
[21:18:05] Th30th3rm3 Zinner: i'm an R. Tard
[21:17:49] Harman Mayo: morals are the imposition of that code upon others - in my definition
[21:17:45] Melch Savon: hI jACK
[21:17:30] Jack Sondergaard: hello
[21:17:24] Harman Mayo: wthics is personal code
[21:17:12] Melch Savon: Justice? The industrialists going to Galt's Gulch
[21:17:06] Melch Savon: Ethics does not equal morality for you Harman? Interesting line to follow rightthere
[21:16:57] Ina Centaur: and justice would be?
[21:16:53] Ina Centaur: yes, that is morality, Rand's version
[21:16:23] Melch Savon: Full expression and reward of the fullest expression of ones abilities, by oneself and society. Better?
[21:15:59] Harman Mayo: true - i myself am ethical - but totally immoral
[21:15:42] Melch Savon: let methink a sec
[21:15:36] Melch Savon: Wait, that is not complete
[21:15:24] Melch Savon: Morality is to each according to their ability
[21:15:13] Melch Savon: That's why I have issues with moral relativists.
[21:15:10] Ina Centaur: ok, so what is rand's version of justice again?
[21:15:04] Ina Centaur: lol
[21:14:55] Melch Savon: Absa-smurfely!
[21:14:44] Ina Centaur: justice: correction of wrongs from a right defined by morality
[21:14:25] Melch Savon: Justice is a servant of Morality
[21:14:19] Melch Savon: Ok. Justice would be the means by which deviations from that standard attempt to be corrected, or brought back into line with the standard. That's how I see it.
[21:13:43] Ina Centaur: yes.. go on
[21:13:39] Harman Mayo: true
[21:13:24] Melch Savon: look, first to have morality you need a standard to judge what is and is not moral by, right?
[21:12:51] Melch Savon: well, true, but that is not because it is related to justice
[21:12:40] Melch Savon: are you kidding? no way
[21:12:38] Ina Centaur: i.e., it's moral to work to the best of your ability for your own good
[21:12:30] Ina Centaur: but would that be considered morality?
[21:12:16] Ina Centaur: you mentioned that the difference between rand justice vs conv justice... is basically individual ability/own gain vs communism
[21:12:02] Melch Savon: Your God is your source of an objective standard of right vs. wrong. Rand surely treats the mind that way
[21:11:50] Ina Centaur: btw, am curious about the difference between justice and morality -- and i know galt's speech explicitly defines each term... but i'm still keeping to the schedule and not yet re-read that
[21:11:06] Melch Savon: call it what you will. If it walks like a duck ...
[21:11:03] Harman Mayo: yep - there is no god
[21:10:51] Melch Savon: well, she does not go there as far as I can see, but sure
[21:10:50] Ina Centaur: technically, objectivism would avoid the usage of deity..
[21:10:35] Ina Centaur: to live is to think. to not think is to die.
[21:10:31] Melch Savon: Is this along the lines of what was decided at the last meeting
[21:10:14] Melch Savon: sure
[21:10:07] Ina Centaur: mental god.
[21:09:14] Melch Savon: Would you agree Harman?
[21:08:55] Melch Savon: You might say the mind was Rand's God
[21:08:49] Ina Centaur: yes, galt's morality
[21:08:37] Melch Savon: not justice per se, but a value system to live by
[21:08:14] Melch Savon: yes. She isa pure philosopher. The mind,first,last, and always
[21:08:02] Ina Centaur: purge. renew. restart.
[21:07:56] Ina Centaur: to save the mind, destroy the world.
[21:07:54] Melch Savon: no, isok
[21:07:52] Ina Centaur: basically, instead of an eye for an eye... it's a world for a mind
[21:07:49] Harman Mayo: sorry - am notoriously irreverent
[21:07:49] Melch Savon: she is worried about a cultural value that she happens to label justice
[21:07:39] Ina Centaur: lol.. well, i think there does exist a sort physical life-loss punishment for acts of murder -- even metaphorical or indirect murder
[21:07:33] Melch Savon: Rand is not concerned with what we call justice at all
[21:07:15] Melch Savon: Well, I'll really digress if I go there Harman
[21:06:40] Harman Mayo: sure - with no kid someone has r\to wash the dishes
[21:06:35] Melch Savon: John Galt is on the radio right now
[21:06:26] Melch Savon: Almost, couple chapters left
[21:06:13] Ina Centaur: (have you finished the book?)
[21:06:10] Melch Savon: Really Harman, you wouldn't
[21:05:59] Harman Mayo: hmm - prefer the idea of you live - but as my slave
[21:05:59] Ina Centaur: but... a world for a mind
[21:05:56] Ina Centaur: well, she's not concerned with an eye for an eye, per se...
[21:05:52] Melch Savon: What does justice mean in this society, if not that? It's a balancing of the scales
[21:05:12] Melch Savon: sure. I kill your kid. The state kills me. Wrong remedied as best as can be
[21:04:55] Ina Centaur: g?
[21:04:52] Melch Savon: Rand is not concerned in this book with what we call 'justice' today
[21:04:52] Ina Centaur: remedy wronh
[21:04:33] Melch Savon: vs "to remedy wrongs"
[21:04:16] Ina Centaur: so rand's view: "to each according to their proven ability to produce" ... vs what conventional view?
[21:03:59] Melch Savon: yet
[21:03:59] Ina Centaur: *totally
[21:03:54] Ina Centaur: yet, we are not tally at the point where it's "to each according to his needs; from each according to his ability"
[21:03:07] Melch Savon: Nannyism, which grows and grows in this society, is totally at odds wiht Rand, who clearly thinks individualism and ability are the highest pursuits
[21:02:21] Melch Savon: Yet they were able to bring it to court, and then the *did* win.
[21:02:20] Ina Centaur: meh... yes, there's that leniancy again. you mean a waitress who spills coffee? it's dependent on the manager: whether he's nice and would not care about 3 cents or he'd bill her the menu price
[21:02:00] Melch Savon: I think justice as we live it is meant to correct wrongs, however the culture defines them. To Rand, justice is more like "to each according to their proven ability to produce". Different idea, different purpose
[21:01:55] Harman Mayo: but is that considered just? most people I know were appalled that McDonald's lost that lawsuit
[21:00:58] Melch Savon: think about it though -- why do laws punish peopel who harm the environment? why give a lady who spilled hot coffee money?
[21:00:51] Ina Centaur: hee
[21:00:18] Melch Savon: don't confuse facts with value judgments yet please
[21:00:02] Ina Centaur: j-c, teaches sacrifice (the bad kind)
[20:59:55] Melch Savon: sure! how often does someone say "I deserve" instead of "I earned"
[20:59:53] Ina Centaur: i'm not sure if the two are that different...
[20:59:47] Ina Centaur: *judeo
[20:59:43] Ina Centaur: vs jeudeo christian roots?
[20:59:35] Ina Centaur: not-given entitlements?
[20:59:19] Melch Savon: make sense?
[20:59:04] Melch Savon: I think culture defines justice as a righting of perceived wrongs. Today, USA, the idea of wrong is moving from judeo christian roots to one of not-given entitlements. So the justice system punishes a mix of the two.
[20:58:06] Ina Centaur: i.e., one that pretty much everyone in this country would consider a traditional/conventional version of justice
[20:57:54] Ina Centaur: pick one that you think fits best
[20:57:45] Melch Savon: sure, pick any definition you like. We just need one or we can't communicate
[20:57:43] Ina Centaur: ok, american culture, this era
[20:57:36] Ina Centaur: hehe
[20:57:26] Ina Centaur: whereas i think traditional versions give leniancy on ignorance
[20:57:26] Harman Mayo: first we need to agree on which culture
[20:57:17] Ina Centaur: my own take on this justice issue... Rand is an absolutist; ignorance is not bliss; if you dunno about gravity and jumped off a cliff; you can't argue in the "celestial court" that you don't deserve to die cuz you were innocent
[20:56:52] Melch Savon: Well, just so we can have a conversation, let's define the terms
[20:56:34] Ina Centaur: it depends on your POV... from a really stilted angle, one can argue that there is no difference between Rand and traditional
[20:55:58] Ina Centaur: i'm not sure, actually.
[20:55:49] Melch Savon: in your view?
[20:55:47] Melch Savon: what are the conventional views?
[20:55:42] Ina Centaur: hehe ty :-)
[20:55:37] Ina Centaur: melch, what do you think Rand's justice is -- and how does it differ from conventional/traditional views of justice?
[20:55:34] [SLDonate] DarkGlass Tip Bin: Thank you for your donation, Melch Savon!
[20:55:08] Melch Savon: yes? unwisely, I am always ready to comment
[20:54:55] Melch Savon: ok, I'll listen until I get the gist of it all and jump in
[20:54:49] Ina Centaur: hehe so before we get into that... i'm interested in your POV, melch
[20:54:46] Harman Mayo: tempted to sing to Nebbisk - think he's in range - and it's always fun to see how he reacts
[20:54:33] Ina Centaur: hmm we were about to continue last night's discussion of Rand's version of justice c.f. traditional versions
[20:54:09] Melch Savon: So what were you discussing?
[20:53:57] Ina Centaur: np :-)
[20:53:42] Melch Savon: Sorry that took so very long. Broken car, needed to update gf to run my networking group tomorrow
[20:53:35] Melch Savon: Hi Harman
[20:53:21] Harman Mayo: hi melch
[20:53:13] Ina Centaur: wb melch
[20:52:43] Harman Mayo: it really is a poor suite of tools
[20:52:16] Harman Mayo: but it may have been McAfee
[20:51:37] Harman Mayo: yep
[20:51:26] Ina Centaur: ah yes, i think the last update was optional
[20:51:19] Ina Centaur: more on atlas shrugged and justice?
[20:51:12] Harman Mayo: lol - it is if you have the older installer handy
[20:51:09] Ina Centaur: so...
[20:50:47] Ina Centaur: hmm not sure if rollback is allowed
[20:50:26] Ina Centaur: hi
[20:48:29] Harman Mayo: at this rate i'm going to uninstall the current client and rollback to the old one
[20:16:25] Ina Centaur: not quite. he
[20:16:07] Ramon Federal: not a big crowd
[20:16:03] Ramon Federal: hello
[20:15:58] Ina Centaur: hi
[20:14:17] Melch Savon: darn sorry gtg
[20:09:11] Ina Centaur: better talk to her
[20:09:05] Ina Centaur: ^.~
[20:08:47] Melch Savon: I'd blow it off if I wasn't dating this person
[20:08:35] Melc |
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