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[19:08:16] Ina Centaur: Welcome to Twilight, Chapter 4 discussion!
[19:08:46] Nakaima Oh: ao off
[19:08:47] EW Animations Female AO: Your EW Animations AO in now OFF
[19:09:22] Ina Centaur: (incidentally, did you re-read chapter 4?)
[19:09:31] Nakaima Oh: I just did!
[19:09:37] Ina Centaur: cool!
[19:09:38] Jack Sondergaard: I just bought the audio book today
[19:09:41] Ina Centaur: ok well, chapter 4 - invitations
[19:10:01] Ina Centaur: is basically the chapter where bella gets asked out to the dance by a lot of guys at her school
[19:10:09] Ina Centaur: which - she finds an annoyance, actually
[19:10:27] Ina Centaur: she makes up the excuse of going to seattle for the day.
[19:11:01] Ina Centaur: edward offers to drive her, though they didn't speak for a week
[19:11:50] Ina Centaur: what do you think of bella's popularity btw
[19:13:08] Nakaima Oh: She is in a strange position. She has never been the prom queen type but she is not the person everyone hates either. She is myteresous
[19:13:12] Jack Sondergaard: I just listened to most of chapter 1 and just now started chapter 4, so I am just going to listen tonight, until I get caught up
[19:13:49] Nakaima Oh: Again her klutziness is used to in this regard
[19:13:56] Ina Centaur: when i first read it, i thought it was due to a supernatural reason..
[19:14:08] Nakaima Oh: It is even hinted that it might be something strange that she inheirted from charlie
[19:14:35] Ina Centaur: i think it's cool how edward's major re-entry to her life is setup.. she'd rejected a bunch of guys, and she nods (helplessly) to edward.
[19:14:43] Nakaima Oh: I think in a way it might be, Ina. She is special
[19:14:54] Ina Centaur: (yes, i noticed that the second time.. i didn't imagine charlie as being a klutzy policeman..)
[19:15:50] Nakaima Oh: I mean it's pretty strange when you say you don't dance and your dad says, oh yea, that. :)
[19:16:24] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:16:36] Ina Centaur: it's also pretty strange if your dad asks you if you're going to the dance..
[19:17:00] Nakaima Oh: Well, that rang true to me having grown up in a very small town
[19:17:26] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:17:39] Ina Centaur: what about the seattle excuse?
[19:17:40] Nakaima Oh: Everyone knew everything
[19:19:02] Ina Centaur: kinda creepy..
[19:19:08] Nakaima Oh: how so?
[19:19:26] Ina Centaur: well, i guess it shows her friends aren't intrusive -- didn't ask "oh, why?"
[19:19:50] Ina Centaur: but, it's creepy that news circulates so quickly
[19:19:58] Ina Centaur: then again - it's as you said, small town, small grapevine
[19:20:24] Nakaima Oh: One of the critques I've heard is that the "friends" are not very deeeply drawn. The are none of them strong characters, i think I agree.
[19:20:46] Ina Centaur: i think her only other friend that becomes a major character would be jacob.
[19:20:54] Ina Centaur: but you know, there's a difference between major and minor characters in a story..
[19:20:58] Nakaima Oh: yes, I meant the others
[19:21:09] Ina Centaur: i think the presence of the other boys in the school are mostly to help emphasize edward's differentness
[19:21:24] Ina Centaur: for ex.. in this chapter, he's the one who *doesn't* ask her out to the dance
[19:21:24] Nakaima Oh: True. some people though can make you see a minor character so clearly in just a few words
[19:21:57] Ina Centaur: well, her minor characters are kinda stock..
[19:22:03] Ina Centaur: chess-club eric
[19:22:06] Ina Centaur: sports guy mike
[19:22:07] Nakaima Oh: I would really have be trying to find something to hate to pick on the minor characters, though. They are not really the point.
[19:22:12] Ina Centaur: gossipgirl jessica
[19:22:17] Ina Centaur: shy angela
[19:22:30] Nakaima Oh: yes, they serve the purpose almost like furnature
[19:22:52] Ina Centaur: hmm what's an example of a minor character becoming clear in a few words..
[19:23:09] Nakaima Oh: Jessica gets more interesting later for just a moment in the scene where they go off together
[19:23:58] Nakaima Oh: Well, think back to the bit players in Rand that we talked about a long time ago. Those characters are pretty well drawn.
[19:24:45] Nakaima Oh: In fact, most of what we'd probably consider important books do that -- some better than others (can you tell I'm grasping for examples?)
[19:24:48] Ina Centaur: yes but a.s. was way longer..
[19:26:11] Nakaima Oh: I think we get better at making minor characters real people as well as plot devices as we go along. Some of the minor characters in The Host are not bad
[19:26:15] Ina Centaur: well, the other thing is, meyer's minor characters don't represent any points
[19:26:21] Ina Centaur: each of ayn ran'd minor characters represented a point...
[19:26:47] Ina Centaur: for example... Brooke(sp?) was a lost cause - an idealist producer-helper who ends up commiting suicide when she discovers the insidious way the world works
[19:26:57] Nakaima Oh: Yes, I really wouldn't want to compare the two. You may remember I wanted to compare Rand to harry potter. :)
[19:27:27] Ina Centaur: i think meyer's minor characters are also used to help make bella seem different. the minor characters are really everyday very-fleeting people
[19:27:42] Nakaima Oh: I think that's probably right.
[19:27:45] Jack Sondergaard: have you discussed any of Rand's books other than Atlas Shrugged?
[19:27:55] Nakaima Oh: She's building a high school environment with them.
[19:28:33] Nakaima Oh: Not in SL. But I've talked with people about Anthem and compared it with Brave new world, for example
[19:28:36] Ina Centaur: (yes: capitalism, anthem, and fountainhead)
[19:29:02] Nakaima Oh: Yikes, sorry, I thought that was Ina asking that. :)
[19:29:09] Ina Centaur: yes anthem is very huxley-esque..
[19:29:30] Ina Centaur: lol it's cool both of you participated in the atlas shrugged buffet back in 07!
[19:29:40] Nakaima Oh: :)
[19:30:44] Jack Sondergaard: Anthem reminded me of "We" by a Yevgeny Zamyatin
[19:31:12] Nakaima Oh: Certainly all in the same category.
[19:31:32] Nakaima Oh: I'm afraid "We" was pretty hard going for me, though. Did you like it Jack?
[19:31:39] Ina Centaur: yup
[19:32:21] Jack Sondergaard: vampires have recently become a very popular topic
[19:32:33] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I liked We
[19:33:05] Nakaima Oh: The new vampires are pretty glamorous
[19:34:01] Ina Centaur: i think we all like vampires because of both their danger and their promise of immortality
[19:34:26] Nakaima Oh: Tradtionally, though being a vampire ws a bad thing
[19:34:46] Jack Sondergaard: yes, they have the qualities that make for great literature
[19:34:47] Nakaima Oh: You lost your soul. You never got to be with god etc
[19:35:34] Ina Centaur: also how they're like demigods among men, their abilities..
[19:35:40] Ina Centaur: lol i love how meyer vampires never sleep :-O
[19:36:12] Jack Sondergaard: yes, heroic abilities, of a sort
[19:36:41] Nakaima Oh: Someone did a story about never sleeping. I'm thinking maybe Nancy Kress? Beggers in Spain? About how never sleeping would make us something other than human.
[19:36:45] Ina Centaur: sleeplessness without health consequences..
[19:37:16] Jack Sondergaard: the movie "The Machinist" is about a man who can't sleep
[19:37:52] Nakaima Oh: That sounds familiar. I don't think I saw it though
[19:38:09] Ji Ni: Hello :)
[19:38:16] Nakaima Oh: hi ji :)
[19:38:18] Jack Sondergaard: It is much like a David Lynch movie
[19:38:25] Ina Centaur: hi ji!
[19:38:32] Jack Sondergaard: hi Tranquility
[19:38:33] Ji Ni: sorry im late, had to get some food or die
[19:38:34] Ina Centaur: well, there are people who can't sleep due to medical reasons
[19:38:43] Ina Centaur: (--some say they were hypnotized by the government o.O)
[19:38:46] Jack Sondergaard: blood?
[19:38:53] Nakaima Oh: :)
[19:38:55] Ina Centaur: suposedly certain east asian refugees can't sleep due to something that happened in the war
[19:38:59] Ji Ni: i wish hehe
[19:39:16] Ina Centaur: hi ji.. i was just admiring how meyer vampires don't have to sleep (and they don't go crazy from that)
[19:39:34] Ji Ni: maybe they are like dolphins
[19:39:59] Ji Ni: i heard (this is unconfirmed) that one side of their brain sleeps at a time
[19:40:16] Ji Ni: so they can stay concious enought at all times to swim and breath
[19:40:32] Jack Sondergaard: yes, I think that is correct
[19:40:48] Ji Ni: that would be weird
[19:41:05] Ji Ni: maybe each hemisphere would develop their own personality
[19:41:14] Nakaima Oh: Very cool. that would be one way to do it
[19:41:24] Ina Centaur: o.O
[19:41:34] Jack Sondergaard: maybe that would be also possible for someone who has had the 2 halves of the brain surgically separated
[19:41:51] Ji Ni: could be :)
[19:41:56] Jack Sondergaard: that is sometimes done in cases of severe epilepsy
[19:42:43] Jack Sondergaard: and they do develop a dual personality after that, one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing
[19:43:04] Ji Ni: trippy :)
[19:43:18] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:43:24] Ina Centaur: the vamps seem to have their physilogy alltogether..
[19:43:29] Ina Centaur: their superfast motion and all
[19:44:51] Ji Ni: ok scratch the dolphin theiroy
[19:45:06] Ina Centaur: i wonder if it has to do with their regenerative abilities though..
[19:45:17] Nakaima Oh: the snake at your skirt ji :)
[19:45:19] Ina Centaur: supposedly the vamp venom heals, etc.
[19:45:19] Jack Sondergaard: in the short story "I Am Legand", now a movie, vampirism is caused by a bacterial infection, and there are scientific reasons given for their attributes
[19:45:27] Ji Ni: aaaaaahhhhhh!
[19:45:30] Ina Centaur: lol, in Blade, vampirism is a virus!
[19:45:55] Ina Centaur: in anne rice, vampirism has to do with a network spirtual thing.. and started when a spirit invaded flesh thousands of years ago o.O.
[19:45:56] Nakaima Oh: Hey, I remember that one, Jack.
[19:45:58] Ji Ni: werent they zombies in legendÉ
[19:46:07] Ina Centaur: yeah legend vampires aren't fun to be...
[19:46:21] Ina Centaur: vampirism is really only fun if you can retain some decent (or greater?) amount of cognitive abilities
[19:46:23] Ji Ni: they were gross
[19:46:26] Jack Sondergaard: yes, they were zombies in Legand
[19:46:58] Ji Ni: id say zombies are kinda like revenants, partial vampires
[19:47:15] Nakaima Oh: There
[19:47:22] Ji Ni: but without the penthouse raves and fast cars
[19:47:30] Nakaima Oh: There's no one home with zombies, right?
[19:47:42] Ina Centaur: ?
[19:47:47] Ji Ni: not really
[19:47:56] Jack Sondergaard: I have an idea for a book, "Caffeine Zombies, a Programmers Cautionary Tale"
[19:47:58] Nakaima Oh: That is, they are not self aware at least traditionally
[19:48:08] Ina Centaur: ick speaking of zombies.. here's pride and prejudice with zombies ...
[19:48:20] Ina Centaur: http://www.chroniclebooks.com/index/main,book-info/store,books/products_id,7847/title,Pride-and-Prejudice-and-Zombies/
[19:48:29] Ina Centaur: scary i know >.>
[19:48:51] Nakaima Oh: Will have to look on the way out. Clicking would clobber this old computer. :)
[19:49:11] Ina Centaur: well, i think in traditional canon, zombies have no self control, and they're animated
[19:49:26] Ina Centaur: they require a summonoer or an "animator" (person who "animates" or controls the zombie - basically voodoo master)
[19:49:34] Ina Centaur: vampires lust for blood; zombies lust for brains
[19:49:47] Ina Centaur: but the difference is that canonical vamps don't require a master
[19:49:49] Ji Ni: mmmm....brains
[19:49:52] Ina Centaur: zombies are typically hordes
[19:49:55] Ina Centaur: vamps are typically loners
[19:50:32] Ina Centaur: i mean i guess they are both "immortal" in that living death doesn't affect them... but being a zombie is more like being a desk or a chair or an inanimate object, compared to being a vampire - (canonically, at least)
[19:50:37] Nakaima Oh: I think zombies are like reanimated bodies
[19:50:51] Ina Centaur: yeah they're kinda like puppets you control without physical strings
[19:51:31] Ji Ni: thats more like the Anita Blake, vampire hunter type of zombies
[19:51:31] Nakaima Oh: But if you ask "what would it be like to be a zombie?" it would be like asking "what would it be like to be a chair?" the answer being "like nothing at all."
[19:51:49] Nakaima Oh: That wouldn't be true of a vampire
[19:52:14] Ji Ni: thus the vampires having decidedly better taste in music
[19:52:20] Nakaima Oh: :)
[19:52:21] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:52:31] Ina Centaur: that's maybe subjective
[19:53:23] Nakaima Oh: Oh, you put the Twilight poster up. I didn't see that last time, Ina. Neat.
[19:53:46] Ina Centaur: hehe it's been up for a few weeks
[19:53:59] Nakaima Oh: I'm so observant.
[19:54:25] Ji Ni: do you think the apple is christocentric symbolism
[19:54:59] Ji Ni: if thats the case then is bella tempting the innocent vampire to partake
[19:55:03] Nakaima Oh: hmm I never thought of that. What do you think?
[19:55:21] Ina Centaur: bella as the serpent?
[19:55:32] Ji Ni: bella as eve
[19:55:33] Ina Centaur: yeah, i don't really see a strong connection between the quote from Genesis and Twilight: Book 1..
[19:55:47] Ina Centaur: other than the gain knowledge of a world other than the normal..
[19:55:55] Nakaima Oh: From a christian pov, it seems like you would want her to come to a bad end
[19:55:56] Ina Centaur: book 1 opens with a quote from genesis 1:1 btw
[19:56:07] Ina Centaur: wouldn't?
[19:56:16] Ji Ni: well i have issues with genesis, i think eve got bad PR
[19:56:37] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:56:37] Nakaima Oh: Wanting to be a vampire should be bad, and being a vampire worse
[19:56:42] Jack Sondergaard: she needed a better agent
[19:56:51] Ina Centaur: hahaha
[19:56:54] Ji Ni: she brought knowledge to humanity, she is the female promethius
[19:57:00] Ina Centaur: yeah it's all the serpent's fault. he's a horrid agent
[19:57:09] Ina Centaur: snakes have such bad pr
[19:57:11] Ina Centaur: ...
[19:57:22] Ji Ni: so what does the apple mean then
[19:57:41] Ina Centaur: well, i think your average person prefers Eden to the real world
[19:57:50] Ina Centaur: Eden being the ideal, before men were complicated enough to have bad drama and things like that
[19:58:04] Nakaima Oh: I wonder if Meyer had anything to say about the apple. She wasn't famous when the first book came out.
[19:58:13] Ina Centaur: and by opening the book of knowledge, eve basically opened that pandora's box of the slings and toils of life and all that
[19:58:25] Nakaima Oh: You have to be fairly big to get cover approval
[19:58:42] Ina Centaur: you could also be prissy and demand the right contrat
[19:58:46] Ina Centaur: *contract
[19:58:58] Nakaima Oh: This was a first novel though wasn't it?
[19:59:17] Nakaima Oh: Well, I suppose someone could ask her on her web site. :)
[19:59:25] Ina Centaur: good idea..
[19:59:35] Ji Ni: so what happened in this chapterÉ
[19:59:38] Ina Centaur: but from context of the novel, what do you think?
[19:59:42] Ji Ni: i missed the beginning
[19:59:52] Ina Centaur: oh chapter 4 is basically when bella gets asked out by all the guys in her class to the spring dance
[20:00:00] Ina Centaur: and then edward has his chance.. and asks to take her to seattle
[20:00:28] Ji Ni: cool
[20:00:29] Nakaima Oh: The novels seem to celebrate the idea of the vampire and do not seem to be saying traditional religion things, i thiink
[20:00:56] Ji Ni: so the apple just reps food then hehe
[20:01:07] Ji Ni: bella as lunch
[20:01:08] Jack Sondergaard: temptation
[20:01:15] Nakaima Oh: He tells her it would be better if they weren't friends but he's trired of that
[20:01:43] Nakaima Oh: maybe so! By the way, is there an apple in the book itself? I don't remember
[20:01:56] Ji Ni: ooh good question
[20:02:25] Ji Ni: i dont remember one
[20:02:28] Ji Ni: or an orchard
[20:02:59] Ji Ni: in the anita blake novels human familiars were called pomme d sang
[20:03:04] Ji Ni: or apples of blood
[20:03:27] Ji Ni: so maybe it was that influence
[20:04:18] Ina Centaur: well, nakaima.. we have chaste vampires..
[20:04:27] Ina Centaur: lol i think the apple has to do with knowledge..
[20:04:34] Ina Centaur: basically you're coming to terms with a totally new reality
[20:04:41] Nakaima Oh: ao on
[20:04:41] EW Animations Female AO: Your EW Animations AO in now ON
[20:05:05] Ina Centaur: i think the apple is basically the quote that opens Twilight
[20:05:32] Nakaima Oh: I must look at the quote. If I can find it on the kidle :)
[20:05:47] Ina Centaur: "But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." 2:17
[20:06:16] Nakaima Oh: Oh, I bet you're right!
[20:06:29] Ji Ni: meh
[20:06:55] Ji Ni: drama, really vampires dont deal with anything that humans dont, they just live longer
[20:06:57] Nakaima Oh: And when you eat of it and die, you shall become a vampire!
[20:07:09] Ina Centaur: i think apple represents knowledge.. eve leaves Eden when she ascends with knowledge
[20:07:20] Ji Ni: she escaped...
[20:07:20] Ina Centaur: bella leaves the normal world when she becomes aware of the supernatural vampires etc
[20:07:27] Ina Centaur: well was eve kicked out?
[20:07:31] Ina Centaur: eve and adam..
[20:07:45] Ina Centaur: edward loses a bit of his innocence too. i guess before then he'd never considered turning someone
[20:08:10] Ji Ni: true, he was kinda stuck
[20:08:33] Nakaima Oh: He has trouble with that too, in that at this point he still thinks vampires have no souls
[20:08:51] Nakaima Oh: So he would be doing more than just killing her
[20:09:26] Ji Ni: that would be a downer
[20:10:19] Nakaima Oh: Well, my time for vampires is up for tonight! Great fun everyone. Thanks Ina. See you all at another one of these. :)
[20:10:35] Ji Ni: Cya Nakaima :)
[20:10:41] Jack Sondergaard: bye Nakaima
[20:11:06] Ina Centaur: hmm i don't think edward ever goes beyond that though..
[20:11:26] Ina Centaur: he always believes vamps are the abomination..
[20:11:53] Ji Ni: i dont think they come across proof otherwise
[20:12:04] Ji Ni: but he gives in for love
[20:12:11] Ji Ni: which is good
[20:12:45] Ina Centaur: yes, it is pararom after all!
[20:13:22] Ji Ni: thats very human too
[20:13:36] Ji Ni: we all wonder if we have souls if there is an afterlife
[20:13:44] Ji Ni: but in the end we have to get on with life
[20:14:16] Ji Ni: do earthly things
[20:14:43] Ina Centaur: yup
[20:14:57] Ina Centaur: so i guess edward takes the practical approach and does let himself woo bella then
[20:15:06] Ina Centaur: ... despite his belief that vamps are evil and only *that* can come out of thei relationship..
[20:16:41] Ji Ni: youd think the special powers would evidence something like a soul
[20:16:52] Ji Ni: or at least spiritual
[20:17:29] Ina Centaur: carlisle seems to have great self control..
[20:17:37] Ina Centaur: i think carlisle believes there's a good and bad, that there's a soul
[20:17:45] Ina Centaur: supposedly in 400 years he's never taken human blood hot
[20:22:07] Jack Sondergaard: I am going to get back to my "real" life, I should be caught up by the next discussion
[20:22:53] Ina Centaur: kk take care!
[20:22:56] Ina Centaur: i'm posting to the blog now
[20:23:00] Ina Centaur: http://book1.twilightSL.com
[20:23:00] Jack Sondergaard: OK
[20:23:18] Ji Ni: Cy Jack
[20:23:44] Ji Ni: guess i should wander off too
[20:24:03] Ji Ni: cya laters :)
[20:24:10] Jack Sondergaard: bye
[19:24:51] Ina Centaur: hi!
[19:24:55] Ina Centaur: i'm here !
[19:25:09] Ji Ni: Hello :)
[19:25:18] Ina Centaur: sorry i got carried away with a rehearsal just before lol
[19:25:27] Ji Ni: its ok :) |
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